Ranger/Druid in the cards?
Koyote
Member Posts: 89
I know some of you follow the Devs a lot closer than me. Simple question: did they ever mention the possibility of implementing Ranger/Druid?
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Okay on a more serious note ... no, because 2nd edition DnD doesn't do it.
Personally I'm all for including these tree hugger combinations. After all you can't have enough bee summoners in BG:EE.
Though it IS a valid class combo, it's listed in the Handbook, and Gygax himself was a huge fan of the class and wrote out a whole article about it in Dragon because people kept claiming it was a typo due to Druids requiring true neutral and rangers require Good, and it not being clarified at any further point in the book.
The Official statement on the matter is, they MUST be Neutral Good, and worship a nature Deity that has both Druid and ranger followers. Mielikki in FR is tailor-made for R/D multiclasses. (only works for Multiclasses, due to being raised into both groups from birth).
I like the idea for RP reasons but the problem with the mage/druid is druid spells and abilities really don't add much to the character. I mean you could use more wands when shapeshifted (but you can't cast any spells while shapeshifted so that kind of negates most of the mage benefits of your character). Other than that what does the druid offer to a mage character that the mage can't get with a cleric? They already have Stoneskin (which actually casts quicker than Iron Skin) as a mage. So that leaves different weapon selections than a cleric, the ability to summon fire and earth elementals from your priest spellbook without being held, Dolorous Decay, Creeping Doom, Call Lightning, Insect Plague, Call Woodland Beings, Fire Seeds, Nature's Beauty (which isn't nearly as useful as it could be given its long casting time and +3 save against) and eventually Druid HLA's?
Compared that to Holy Smite (as a Neutral cleric), Lessor Restoration, Greater Restoration, Finger of Death, Raise Dead, Resurrection, Sunray, Symbol Stun, Symbol Death, Symbol Fear, Draw Upon Holy Might (useful once you lose the ability in BG2), Chant, Bless, Remove Fear (hopefully they give this back to druids), Sanctuary, Command Word: Die, Zone of Sweet Air, Remove Curse, Protection From Evil - Radius "10, Holy Power, Free Action, Flame Strike, Righteous Magic, Greater Command, Blade Barrier, Aerial Servant, Bolt of Glory, and False Dawn. Plus you can use elven chainmail as a cleric/mage.
Edit: I forgot one. With the Druid needing both high wisdom and high charisma to Dual class you would need relatively high charisma, wisdom, and intelligence to use the character. On top of any need you may have for dexterity and constitution. You'd get better rolls as a multiclass but you have less options in terms of your dump stats.
As mentioned many times, this game isn't made for power gaming. It's an RPG...not an action RPG (not technically anyway...though VERY VERY close to one)......
BG is so much more enjoyable if you try not to think about the mechanics and just play....you can solo the game as a fighter with all 10's (My Eric the Unremarkable solo run)...so stats and other abilities are utterly pointless for consideration for the non-modded game.
You're better off just finding a concept you enjoy, rolling once for stats and accepting, without even looking at what you got, and just roll with it. You'll very likely be in for the most challenging, yet most enjoyable run you've ever played. And if it's not challenging enough, throw in those difficulty mods. Or avoid all cheese and rest abuse.
And the R/C is a massive engine exploit currently, that is LONG overdue getting fixed (mostly because they'll have to completely separate the druid/ranger spell tables).
Th only reason it's like that is because rangers and druids share the same spell table.
They need to remove the ranger's link to the druid table entirely, and just manually add all the proper spells at 8, 10, and 12. That would fix it out of hand, without having to mess with trying to untangle the spell tables.
You shouldn't have any druid spells at all until the ranger half hits level 8, and only up to 3rd level max (and druid spells suck till 4th). Currently, you get ALL druid spells as soon as your cleric reaches the appropriate spell level. And you can dual-class at 2, to effectively become a Cleric/Druid singleclass with free dual-wielding.
Maybe they could fix R/C, add a cheat to disable the fix, and add R/D and D/M
To quote The Complete Druid's Handbook:
"DRUID/RANGER. The core AD&D rules permit the druid/ranger. The Complete Ranger's Handbook, p. 79, gives guidlines for playing such characters: A Nature deity of good alignment must exist whose specialty priests are all druids. This priesthood must ally with a group of rangers. Any half-elf druid/ranger must obey the level limits for demihumans (DMG, p. 15), making it unlikely for the character to compete for high levels of druidic power. The druid/ranger's multiple interests antagonize conservative druids, and the character usually suffers from divided loyalties. (Create a similar character with fewer problems by giving a druid/fighter the Avenger or Beastfriend kit, described in the next chapter)."
As mentioned above, it has been repeatedly OFFICIALLY confirmed (both in the Complete Guides and a full Article on the subject in Dragon as well) to NOT be a typo, as several naysayers of the class have claimed over the years.
Ranger Druid makes sense to me as a character. The alignment problem is generally solved with neutral good. Jaheira seems neutral good for all intents and purposes IMO.
While this combination is very likely tailored for Harper wanna-be's, I find it most interesting for other reasons altogether. For example, I can see it as an excellent way to roleplay an reversed changeling (the human infants who were kidnapped by fey creatures, not the switched fey children in human care) Jester/Druid with unlimited prankster possibilities. Somewhat similar to AD&D's Meistersinger bard kit, only more versatile and annoying for enemy ears.
A druid that ceased to be true neutral does not lose their abilities...they simply can't gain further xp as a druid until they atone or dual-class to something not alignment restricted. You could technically start as a druid and then dual into a ranger, but not the other way around. Since you'd fall.
(well actually you technically could in Forgotten Realms. Druids of Mielikki (2nd edition) can be Neutral Good, True Neutral, and Chaotic Neutral, and choose 1 additional type of weapon of their choice that they can wield (still have to pay it's proficiency cost as normal though) without violating their oaths. They can also wear studded leather or Elven armors without violations as well. This also applies to ranger/Druids, who in other settings would be limited to only equipment allowed to druids or they violate their druid oaths. (Druid oath violation results in complete loss of spellcasting and other supernatural abilities until 24 hours AFTER they stop using the offending items).
(the 3rd edition Mielikki druid is even more extreme, they can use anything a ranger can (base class, not counting feats) without violating their oaths).
A Paladin can easily dual-class as a cleric or mage, as long as they don't take any actions that violate the paladin's code (otherwise they immediately fall and become fighters). (but not a thief (no LG), a Bard (no LG), Druid (no LG), a Ranger or Fighter (only 1 of each class pool)).
Only specific bard kits can be taken in a Multiclass, and only specific combinations.
Dwarf - (Chanter is dwarf unique bard kit)
Fighter/ Chanter or Skald
Elf - (Minstrel is elf/half-elf unique bard kit)
Mage/Minstrel (elf only kit)
Thief/Gypsy
Gnome- (Professor is gnome unique bard kit)
Illusionist/Professor (gnome only kit)
Theif/Professor or Jongleur
Half-Elf - (see Elf)
FIghter/Bard or Blade or Gallant or Skald
Ranger/Bard or Meistersinger
Mage/Loremaster or Riddlemaster
Cleric/Bard
Druid/Meistersinger
Thief/Bard or Gypsy or thespian or Jongleur
Halfling- (Whistler is halfling unique bard kit...but not available as as a multiclass)
Thief/Jongleur
Also note, Halfling and Dwarven bards or their kits CANNOT cast spells (nor can they use wands or casting spells using scrolls, even if the class normally allows it). Any spell they study and "learn" they get a chance equal to their spell-learn chance to simply ignore the effects of that spell every time it's cast. It doesn't prevent the casting, but it can't touch the dwarf/halfling if their check succeeds (as if they're in a skin-tight anti-magic field). But can only study spells that they would be high enough to cast if they had spellcasting, and are bound by their max known spells limit based on intelligence. (keep in mind, this means at 19+ int a dwarf/halfing bard would be almost immune to spells, assuming they had knew them all, except 9th or higher).
And Gnome bards have the same spell restrictions as an illusionist. (No evocation, necromancy, or abjuration, but their illusion spells have a -1 save penalty and they get a +1 save bonus vs hostile illusions)
Essentially, the 1e AD&D bard class was Celtic in its inspiration. The 2e AD&D bard, in contrast, is more of a minstrel + magic class.
Is it possible to powergame? Are there many people that enjoy to do it? Then yes, it is ALSO made for powergaming. I'm happy you discovered, through some ancient tome, the best way to enjoy the game.
Also, I'm TOTALLY impressed you're able to solo the game with your Eric the Unremarkable, really.
But what if some people new to the game struggle to finish it on Easy with a full party? At that point do they have the permission to reroll their stats?
Since the last 10 years - except when I play multiplayer with other guys - I exclusively play solo (keeping npcs in party just for banters and getting 1/6 xp), with SCS/II, Tactics, Ascension, Improved Asylum and many other mods that make the game more challenging. But for sure I'm not gonna tell anyone how they should have fun.
When I made a tutorial in the italian section on how to use ShadowKeeper, the first pms I received were "Can you tell me how to add permanent improved alacrity, damage/thac0 bonus, immunities, etc?".
If I should name ONE good thing of Baldur's Gate that would be the possibility to enjoy it in one thousand ways.
And yes, powergaming/cheating/cheesing/modding are part of them. As I said, I agree just with the first sentence.
@elminster may have considered only the usefulness of this possible multiclass, but jeez... You totally exclude all the other points of view.
BG is 45% tactics, 45% gear, and 10% stats....even for a newbie.
I'm EXTREMELY biased against cheating, because it literally ruins the game for you, if you get into a habit of it. I almost swore off gaming entirely, due to getting it stuck into my head that cheating IS the way to a this game or that game, because that's all you ever hear about, this cheat or that cheat, use this trainer, use all these cheesy techniques and exploits to make these otherwise nigh impossible (to a newbe) encoutners a joke..etcetcetc. People have no interesting in learning what they did wrong and getting better (it's why the soul series gets a lot of flack for their design choices, they force you learn to play and beat the $%#^ out of you without restraint when you F up, no matter how small)...they want immediate, and unjust satisfaction for accomplishing NOTHING.
They NEVER get permission, because the stats are meaningless (a 3 Con mage is the only one who gets a pass to reroll because you will never survive the prelude scene with only 1 HP, and it's scripted with no way to avoid it...other then that, you can by-pass any weakness with party members, not being stupid and actually reading what each spell does, or keeping an eye out for items that can cover areas you've learned that your playstyle is weak to).....all you do is change tactics or search around for better gear if you're struggling. Or get companions who can cover your weaknesses....it's why we have parties in the first place. Yes it's possible to solo, but I don't know of anyone who has done so without meta knowledge. If you don't know what to do, strength in numbers and using a variety of classes is how you learn to play.