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i think some multiclass fighters are better than duals (powergaming)

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  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    Eventually, sure, but there's like, what, 7-8 levels between those points?

    Berserker13/Cleric is going to be a significantly better spellcaster than F/C while being a comparable fighter. No HLAs, but combine Enrage with Greater Haste and you don't need them anyway. Again, I feel like HLAs get way too much attention in these discussions.
    nano
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013
    what levels? what?

  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    The levels between level 13 and HLAs becoming available
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    that means only that berseker/cleric reach max potential earlier while f/c need more time
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    @Phototoxin: There is no "need" for anything, just a desire to optimize. A meta-game in and of itself, if you so will. It's easier to see why you'd powergame if you play with a load of difficult mods, and on Insane difficulty. If you play the Vanilla game on Core, however, it's just overkill. To each his own, that's why we have the option of customizing :)

    @zur312
    zur312 said:

    that means only that berseker/cleric reach max potential earlier while f/c need more time

    That's exactly what my point was this whole time :) And where that sweet spot lies when you catch up in power depends entirely on the available XP, i.e. party size and composition. QED.

    Still, that's looking at some ultimate goal; arguably, that's not the best way to look at it (certainly it's not the only way). As we've discussed before if you recall, "power" is quite relative in this game. While an emphasis on late game makes sense (the vast majority of hard fights are there), you can't ignore early and mid-game completely. There's certainly a point where duals are icky to deal with, but then there's also a point where multis are lagging behind. Shifting these spots around until they fit your style best is, I think, the optimal way to tackle this problem.

    But going back to the HLA issue - how much value do you place on Hardiness? You cite it numerous times as a crucial point, but I still don't see how.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013

    @Phototoxin: There is no "need" for anything, just a desire to optimize. A meta-game in and of itself, if you so will. It's easier to see why you'd powergame if you play with a load of difficult mods, and on Insane difficulty. If you play the Vanilla game on Core, however, it's just overkill. To each his own, that's why we have the option of customizing :)

    @zur312

    zur312 said:

    that means only that berseker/cleric reach max potential earlier while f/c need more time

    That's exactly what my point was this whole time :) And where that sweet spot lies when you catch up in power depends entirely on the available XP, i.e. party size and composition. QED.

    Still, that's looking at some ultimate goal; arguably, that's not the best way to look at it (certainly it's not the only way). As we've discussed before if you recall, "power" is quite relative in this game. While an emphasis on late game makes sense (the vast majority of hard fights are there), you can't ignore early and mid-game completely. There's certainly a point where duals are icky to deal with, but then there's also a point where multis are lagging behind. Shifting these spots around until they fit your style best is, I think, the optimal way to tackle this problem.

    But going back to the HLA issue - how much value do you place on Hardiness? You cite it numerous times as a crucial point, but I still don't see how.
    well firkraag hits for 70 dmg on insane this is why i think it is important

    about late duals and lagging multi it is not comparable due to party combinations mods xp and even preference of someone
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Dual is way more effective, if done properly. Love me some orcie feffin theifs though
  • EejitEejit Member Posts: 55
    zur312 said:

    8mln exp is not 2 fights content it depends on time when we measure their "power"

    Roll %d, that's how far through the games the character is. Repeat several times. Who comes out ahead most?

    I think dualling from lvl 20+ is ridiculous and cannot really be considered "most powerful" in an overall sense.
    nano
  • ZanianZanian Member Posts: 332
    In my opinion, I've always thought the biggest advantage a dual has over a multi, is that it gets to choose a kit. Shouldn't a discussion such as this, only cover the vanilla un-modded version of the game?
    If we start to bring in mods, what's superior will all depend on what mods each person has installed.
    elminsternano
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Zanian said:

    Shouldn't a discussion such as this, only cover the vanilla un-modded version of the game?
    If we start to bring in mods, what's superior will all depend on what mods each person has installed.

    That would end up quite moot, as the vanilla game isn't challenging enough to warrant (or present any kind of actual realistic difficulty to) a powergaming approach.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    karnor00 said:

    In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.

    A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA.
    Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680

    karnor00 said:

    In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.

    A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA.
    Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
    I don't remember hardiness being able to be dispelled, although perhaps I'm remembering it wrong. And in my experience with SCSII, dispels come thick and fast - and enemy casters are almost always high enough level to dispel pretty much everything. Which means I don't like relying on Improved Haste.

    I'm not sure of the relevance of a player vs player dispel contest because BG2 is only PVE.

    Anyway, it's just my opinion and I'm sure has a lot to do with how I play the game. Your mileage may vary.

  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited July 2013

    karnor00 said:

    In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.

    A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA.
    Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
    yeah this f>c will surely cast his dispell while being clobbered to death by f/c

    karnor00 said:

    In my opinion whirlwind attack is by far the best fighter HLA. That's the big one that dual fighter > thieves lose out on.

    A lvl13 fighter can reach 10apr with Improved Haste, which will even last longer than a GWA.
    Hardiness can be dispelled too. And guess what? A F>C will win a dispell contest vs a F/C.
    while not having hardiness/critical strike/other hlas
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    MC also get about 7-8 more HLA then a dual or single class does (and starts gaining them at the exact same time a dual/single would). (Barring some stupidly over the top high level, waste of time dual, which can squeeze a couple extra HLA out).
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    zur312 said:

    yeah this f>c will surely cast his dispell while being clobbered to death by f/c

    I admit I really laughed here xD
    nano
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    Where did that idea come from, to compare power by pitting characters against each other? It's a completely unrepresentative scenario and of very little use save entertainment value.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125

    It's a completely unrepresentative scenario and of very little use save entertainment value.

    image
    Mathmicknano
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    I haven't played Black Pits, maybe it matters there what do I know. Still, this discussion is of most relevance to BG2/ToB, as BG1 follows entirely different rules.

    If you were being facetious, my apologies.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125

    If you were being facetious, my apologies.

    Yes, yes I was X) No problem!
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