Can I just shoot myself now? You seriously did *not* just go there, neur0...
Can we just lock this thread. The bigotry meter from all the homophobia was too high, and now neur0 brings out the "fuck religion" card. This thread is cancerous.
I think religion is much more connected to this topic then you may think. No one besides Bjjorick and me brought this up so I don't see how it affects this thread.
I mean, it was just a remark. I don't wish to derail the thread, but I stand by what I said that religion is really at the root of this discussion, and that's all I will say about that on this thread.
I think religion is much more connected to this topic then you may think. No one besides Bjjorick and me brought this up so I don't see how it affects this thread.
It's not. It shouldn't be in this thread.
I'm Christian through and through, down to the very letter of the Bible and I don't think my opinion on homosexuality (I believe it's a sin) should effect anyone. Why should I dictate peoples' lives? No, I should stay out of their life, why should I be able to decide in a vote whether they can get married or not, or what have you. The same goes for any other group ... I shouldn't effect them and they shouldn't effect me.
What I'm saying is; I'm Christian, and you haven't seen me making a bunch of homophobic posts, as you and many others would likely expect a Christian to do. Ergo, I don't think religion is connected to this topic. Or, *IF IT IS*, it bloody shouldn't be, so. If you wish to reply to this, go ahead, and I will probably call it quits there, or you can not reply. Either way. It's all good, but either way I'm done so as to avoid hypocrisy.
(I really wish my brethren would just stop messing with peoples' affairs. It's not exactly going to cause anyone to convert.)
I think religion is much more connected to this topic then you may think. No one besides Bjjorick and me brought this up so I don't see how it affects this thread.
It's not. It shouldn't be in this thread.
I'm Christian through and through, down to the very letter of the Bible and I don't think my opinion on homosexuality (I believe it's a sin) should effect anyone. Why should I dictate peoples' lives? No, I should stay out of their life, why should I be able to decide in a vote whether they can get married or not, or what have you. The same goes for any other group ... I shouldn't effect them and they should effect me.
What I'm saying is; I'm Christian, and you haven't seen me making a bunch of homophobic posts, as you and many others would likely expect a Christian to do. Ergo, I don't think religion is connected to this topic. Or, *IF IT IS*, it bloody shouldn't be, so. If you wish to reply to this, go ahead, and I will probably call it quits there, or you can not reply. Either way. It's all good, but either way I'm done so as to avoid hypocrisy.
(I really wish my brethren would just stop messing with peoples' affairs. It's not exactly going to cause anyone to convert.)
Like I said, I also will not discuss it on this thread. Sorry if I struck a nerve.
I'm not religious myself, but I agree with @Quartz. Leaving religion out of this is probably the best for everyone. There's enough hot topic issues in this thread already.
I think religion is much more connected to this topic then you may think. No one besides Bjjorick and me brought this up so I don't see how it affects this thread.
It's not. It shouldn't be in this thread.
I'm Christian through and through, down to the very letter of the Bible and I don't think my opinion on homosexuality (I believe it's a sin) should effect anyone. Why should I dictate peoples' lives? No, I should stay out of their life, why should I be able to decide in a vote whether they can get married or not, or what have you. The same goes for any other group ... I shouldn't effect them and they should effect me.
What I'm saying is; I'm Christian, and you haven't seen me making a bunch of homophobic posts, as you and many others would likely expect a Christian to do. Ergo, I don't think religion is connected to this topic. Or, *IF IT IS*, it bloody shouldn't be, so. If you wish to reply to this, go ahead, and I will probably call it quits there, or you can not reply. Either way. It's all good, but either way I'm done so as to avoid hypocrisy.
(I really wish my brethren would just stop messing with peoples' affairs. It's not exactly going to cause anyone to convert.)
Like I said, I also will not discuss it on this thread. Sorry if I struck a nerve.
Hey, sounds great to me. Thank you for being reasonable.
On a small note on this, not wanting to start a flame war on this But i would like the church to evolve and change it's point of view on this. Not like it would be the first time that the Roman Church change his view of things, it's not like they still burn wise mother to help woman deliver in less pain, and it's not like they still promote marriage with 1 man and multiple women like the hold testament promoted... It would be nice from them to enter the 21 century, just saying, again not wanting to start a war on this
Calling that a problem, is a problem of its own, you're doing the same thing as those you accuse.
As for Bjjorick, i respect your opinion, but coming from the medical field, i studied all these years that the sexual orientation is not as simple as an option, and not as simple as just genetics either.
But i can tell you, that it's all about hormones. Producing more testosterone from the male genitals basically forces men to be attracted to more oestrogen producing persons (females), and the other way around. You don't have an option in this particular subject according to today's standards.
This is an established medical fact, however, and this is the interesting part, a painful experience, a trauma or shock, maybe hardships from relationships, can create strong neuron connections that basically affect your hormonical excrusions, basically altering the amounts of testosterone(or oestrogens) you produce, and possibly affecting how prone you are to producing hormones that cause the feeling of love(as in lust or libido), from having contact with the other gender( and the hormones they produce). This usually happens in more sentimental people, that maybe have a tendency for art as well.
Also, some late studies have implied that the majority of homosexual people come from families with big child births and a lot of members, basically implying it's the method of nature through the human body to lessen the impact of overpopulation from these specific bloodlines. Of course, this is still under research, and not an established fact.
These points could explain why some people happen to be gay, i have seen some men that look like women for example, this is hormonical mostly, but even medicine of today does not have the answer to every hormonical production line, nor can we reproduce every hormone artificially to experiment.
I don't mean any disrespect towards anyone, but i always try to look at the human side and empathise with whoever is facing some kind of problem, so that i can understand his position better.
Gay people are a minority, indeed. However, if society didn't make them feel so secluded and weird, they would never have the need to be in the defensive in the first place.
Does this mean that you have to accept it? No, you don't, everyone has his opinion, however, let's not jump at each other because of difference of opinions.
As sword sharpens sword, let a human sharpen another human, through arguments everyone becomes better in my opinion, as long as we don't insult anyone.
Anyway, i can't remember what i originally wanted to say now -_-
@Mornmagor Thank you, part of what you brought up was what i knew i couldn't express without being too graphic, as i've seen those studies and reports, and i know part of what you mean by shock, but honestly, i know i don't know everything. I have also noticed the pattern with bigger families, but i hadn't pieced that part together, and it's a valid theory.
also, thank you for pointing out why they're so defensive. I honestly wasn't trying to offend someone, but it seemed like quite a bit of what i was trying to say was being taken out of context. i honestly don't know if that's because how i was saying it, the fact that it's typed and not spoken, typos, or simply, because i'm an idiot. I'm sure most of you think the last, and you could be right.
Again, i accept nothing as truth until i've tested it myself, and draw my conclusions based off of experiences and the evidence i see most fitting with my experiences. I feel it would be foolish to do it any other way.
Also, as far as my God bless comment, i may not agree with something, but i still try to love the people. If i was judgemental, rude, insulting, hateful, or if i was simply taken as any of those, i do apologize.
If i was stubborn, well, that's just the way i am. Anyways, i'm going to try to stay out of the discussion as i fear i'll do more harm then anything else. Peace and God bless.
@Bjjorick I hope if there's one thing you take away from this, it is that LGBT people from nature and not from any choice to stray from heterosexuality. I hope you keep an open and thoughtful mind in the future should you ever befriend someone who is LGBT.
I'm Christian through and through, down to the very letter of the Bible and I don't think my opinion on homosexuality (I believe it's a sin) should effect anyone. Why should I dictate peoples' lives? No, I should stay out of their life, why should I be able to decide in a vote whether they can get married or not, or what have you. The same goes for any other group ... I shouldn't effect them and they should effect me.
Wow... Im stunned.
(Although I think theres a typo at the end, you meant "shouldnt" right?)
I do not believe its a sin. But this would be a different discussion.
You admit that you believe it is a sin, and it is your right to do so. But at the same time you respect another person and his or her rights.
You are the first person that I see here that disagrees with homosexuality but still does respect another person.
In my opinion this is on what a discussion should be based on. Respect for the one who you are discussing with.
As I said youre the first one (for me) who disagrees with homosexuality, but at the same time youre not insulting me, denying my rights as a person or even worse
Thanks
Ahaha yes, I meant "shouldn't," good catch I fixed that now.
And you are very welcome. I'm sorry to hear that you haven't met others like me. We're semi-rare, but we're out there ... I have plenty of friends who would probably agree with me. And, unfortunately, plenty of friends who are too antagonistic. I think the antagonism will eventually go away with another generation or two. I know a lot of young Christian folks like myself who are very, very loving and accepting people, like Christ, like they're supposed to be; instead of being ardent and unmoving.
I look at it like this. In real life. Gays, Bisexuals and the like exist. I'm all for it, and an incredibly socially liberal person. But...even if I wasn't. I couldn't stop the existence of people who have a different gender bias for attraction. If you can role play the game any way you want. What does it matter if the options exist, just like the different kinds of people exist in real life? You can choose to keep that sort of thing out of your gaming experience either way. You have the freedom of Choice as a player. Something that isn't granted to people of other sexualities in real life. Now MAYBE they should include a toggle button when you create your character defining your sexuality at creation, insofar that if you don't want certain types of relationships to come up during your game, they won't. (And that would work both ways, as I'm sure a Gay man or woman wouldn't want heterosexuals hitting on them in game)
Ahaha yes, I meant "shouldn't," good catch I fixed that now.
And you are very welcome. I'm sorry to hear that you haven't met others like me. We're semi-rare, but we're out there ... I have plenty of friends who would probably agree with me. And, unfortunately, plenty of friends who are too antagonistic. I think the antagonism will eventually go away with another generation or two. I know a lot of young Christian folks like myself who are very, very loving and accepting people, like Christ, like they're supposed to be; instead of being ardent and unmoving.
Peace~!
Now I hate to get all partisan in yet another way, but that's what I love about the Church of England. Ultra liberal, super lovely, and lots of cake.
I had to read this whole thread to post this, but... Elminster is heterosexual. So is Lhaeo, his scribe. The fact that the two of them shared Elminster's tower, alone, for many years got people thinking they were gay. As well as the fact that Lhaeo was portraying a rather prissy character to make people not think that he resembled the deposed King of Tethyr, who had been his father. Lhaeo had a relationship with... Storm Silverhand, but they kept it quiet, and after Zaranda Star, an adventurer, became Queen of Tethyr, Lhaeo went home and married her to give her reign legitimacy.
I'm an only child and gay. So much for the "big families" theory.
It baffles me how anybody could think that anyone chooses who to be attracted to. You straight guys who hate gay people, (and yes, you do hate us, despite your probable protestations to the contrary) honestly want us to believe that you "decide" to be turned on by beautiful women with long legs and big boobs? You just are. You never "decided" anything of the sort.
My experience and my studies lead me to believe that sexual orientation is an *extremely* complex human psychological outcome of a genetic pre-disposition plus a mix of environmental triggers. One of the environmental triggers alone probably won't do it - it has to be a combination of environmental stressors acting upon the genetic predisposition.
We can reasonably assume that sexual orientation isn't *completely* genetically determined, because of identical twin cases where one is gay and the other isn't. (There are also cases of identical twins where one has a severe mental illness, such as bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, and the other does not.) Identical twin "evidence" is anecdotal, though, and therefore not the strongest of evidence.
Once the requisite factors are in place, though, the subject has no choice whatsoever to whom they are attracted. I was an eleven year old sixth grader when I got my first crush, and it was on a boy. And so the lifetime of suffering began. Suffering not because I was gay, but suffering because of the cruelty of other people - man's inhumanity to man, and all that. And of course, because of religion, and I was one of the most devout young people you could ever meet.
I think that this unfortunate topic has long since stopped having anything to do with BG:EE or with gaming.
But i can tell you, that it's all about hormones. Producing more testosterone from the male genitals basically forces men to be attracted to more oestrogen producing persons (females), and the other way around. You don't have an option in this particular subject according to today's standards.
I appreciate your contribution to this discussion!
Now not that I disagree with your medical knowledge (e.g., homosexuality as natural population control is a common idea in evolution - in addition to kinship selection - and fits with increasing birth order) - but... how are bisexual people explained under this theory of hormone ratios? That is, people with more testosterone are attracted to people with more oestrogen? Most of us have a preference for masculine or feminine individuals, while some of us are attracted to both types. I know gender expression isn't strictly the best way of gauging hormone production, but it's all I have right now.
As for neuron connection changes, I completely agree with you. As a simple illustration, people with phobias have been mentally scarred: in other words, their brains have been rewired in a small way. Compulsive urges or bad habits can also be developed and destroyed over time.
As far as i know, it could be possible that for certain quantities of androgens and oestrogens(since they both exist in both genders, just in different amounts), you could be affected by both sexes. Different ratios could mean different results.
For an overly simplified example, a usual straight male would produce 75pgr androgens and 25pgr oestrogens daily.
Make that 75 and 90 and he's gay.
Make that 75 and 75 and he's bi.
Or something. This is not the exact reason, nor does it work like that exactly. It should mostly lie within his brain neurons and his past, which will both affect his hormones and any psychological inclination towards one, the other, or both.
It is surely more complicated than that, and multifactored, however, there must be an organic explanation to every inclination we have, and it's not that easy to explain it.
According to the theory anyway, more hormones than just androgens or oestrogens play a part in sexual orientation, but they are distinct in males and females.
As for the overpopulation theory, although someone needs to check his genealogical tree for that, it is unlikely that every gay person comes from a family with a lot of children. The statistics just pointed that this occurs more frequently than it should, but in any way, the theory is not established yet, and who knows if it ever might.
I just gotta say that for some reason the family reason makes me think it would be perverted to "Guys who over-attach to their mothers turn out gay" or "Guys who have weak fathers and too strong mothers are turned gay by their parents" kinda shash.
The funny here is the senseless of argue. Everyone has their minds made up already, probally no one will change a point of view based on forum arguments unseless this person already has a predisposition to think different.
People raise arguments to opponents in an attempt to convince the other side to think as them, when that doesn't work (duhhh... obvious) those people resort progressively to irony, mockery and eventually bad manner and flames.
You can work examples, analogy, mathematic reasons but nothing of this matter as no one is open to reason the issue, only to discuss it. If you're gay any comment made against an homossexual behavior, no matter why, when and in which context will be seen as prejudice. By another side people that disagree with gay content in the game will by nature see any homossexual defense as radical, activist, equalists and sometimes as a kind of counter prejudice (as i see some arguments).
The facts are, Beamdog already stated that homossexual content will exist in BG, it's done, anyone that don't like deal with it (as me for example, useless it's Neera XD). Try to explain why gay romances are good will not help anyone and in reason of previous threads this topic will each time more drag more flames and bad manners.
So here is my opinion, not an opinion pro or against gay, but an opinion to this thread:
I would really liek to romance one of the new NPCs, do I haft to be female or can I play male and still romance them?
The answer is:
There is 2 males and one female, the 3 new NPCs will be romanceable. Based in comments on twitter it's know that one of the 2 male new NPCs will be bissexual, therefore if you make a male main char you have in BG 1 female romance and one bissexual male romance, if you make a female main char you have 2 straight female romances.
Now that this thread is properly answered, based on the potential damage that can come from this discussion and seizing my moment of common sense, @Tanthalas can you close this topic?
Comments
Can we just lock this thread. The bigotry meter from all the homophobia was too high, and now neur0 brings out the "fuck religion" card. This thread is cancerous.
No one besides Bjjorick and me brought this up so I don't see how it affects this thread.
I mean, it was just a remark. I don't wish to derail the thread, but I stand by what I said that religion is really at the root of this discussion, and that's all I will say about that on this thread.
I'm Christian through and through, down to the very letter of the Bible and I don't think my opinion on homosexuality (I believe it's a sin) should effect anyone. Why should I dictate peoples' lives? No, I should stay out of their life, why should I be able to decide in a vote whether they can get married or not, or what have you. The same goes for any other group ... I shouldn't effect them and they shouldn't effect me.
What I'm saying is; I'm Christian, and you haven't seen me making a bunch of homophobic posts, as you and many others would likely expect a Christian to do. Ergo, I don't think religion is connected to this topic. Or, *IF IT IS*, it bloody shouldn't be, so. If you wish to reply to this, go ahead, and I will probably call it quits there, or you can not reply. Either way. It's all good, but either way I'm done so as to avoid hypocrisy.
(I really wish my brethren would just stop messing with peoples' affairs. It's not exactly going to cause anyone to convert.)
Sorry if I struck a nerve.
But i would like the church to evolve and change it's point of view on this. Not like it would be the first time that the Roman Church change his view of things, it's not like they still burn wise mother to help woman deliver in less pain, and it's not like they still promote marriage with 1 man and multiple women like the hold testament promoted...
It would be nice from them to enter the 21 century, just saying, again not wanting to start a war on this
As for Bjjorick, i respect your opinion, but coming from the medical field, i studied all these years that the sexual orientation is not as simple as an option, and not as simple as just genetics either.
But i can tell you, that it's all about hormones. Producing more testosterone from the male genitals basically forces men to be attracted to more oestrogen producing persons (females), and the other way around. You don't have an option in this particular subject according to today's standards.
This is an established medical fact, however, and this is the interesting part, a painful experience, a trauma or shock, maybe hardships from relationships, can create strong neuron connections that basically affect your hormonical excrusions, basically altering the amounts of testosterone(or oestrogens) you produce, and possibly affecting how prone you are to producing hormones that cause the feeling of love(as in lust or libido), from having contact with the other gender( and the hormones they produce). This usually happens in more sentimental people, that maybe have a tendency for art as well.
Also, some late studies have implied that the majority of homosexual people come from families with big child births and a lot of members, basically implying it's the method of nature through the human body to lessen the impact of overpopulation from these specific bloodlines. Of course, this is still under research, and not an established fact.
These points could explain why some people happen to be gay, i have seen some men that look like women for example, this is hormonical mostly, but even medicine of today does not have the answer to every hormonical production line, nor can we reproduce every hormone artificially to experiment.
I don't mean any disrespect towards anyone, but i always try to look at the human side and empathise with whoever is facing some kind of problem, so that i can understand his position better.
Gay people are a minority, indeed. However, if society didn't make them feel so secluded and weird, they would never have the need to be in the defensive in the first place.
Does this mean that you have to accept it? No, you don't, everyone has his opinion, however, let's not jump at each other because of difference of opinions.
As sword sharpens sword, let a human sharpen another human, through arguments everyone becomes better in my opinion, as long as we don't insult anyone.
Anyway, i can't remember what i originally wanted to say now -_-
Thank you, part of what you brought up was what i knew i couldn't express without being too graphic, as i've seen those studies and reports, and i know part of what you mean by shock, but honestly, i know i don't know everything. I have also noticed the pattern with bigger families, but i hadn't pieced that part together, and it's a valid theory.
also, thank you for pointing out why they're so defensive. I honestly wasn't trying to offend someone, but it seemed like quite a bit of what i was trying to say was being taken out of context. i honestly don't know if that's because how i was saying it, the fact that it's typed and not spoken, typos, or simply, because i'm an idiot. I'm sure most of you think the last, and you could be right.
Again, i accept nothing as truth until i've tested it myself, and draw my conclusions based off of experiences and the evidence i see most fitting with my experiences. I feel it would be foolish to do it any other way.
Also, as far as my God bless comment, i may not agree with something, but i still try to love the people. If i was judgemental, rude, insulting, hateful, or if i was simply taken as any of those, i do apologize.
If i was stubborn, well, that's just the way i am. Anyways, i'm going to try to stay out of the discussion as i fear i'll do more harm then anything else. Peace and God bless.
I've just finished the God Delusion and am packing steel.
I jest I jest!
And you are very welcome. I'm sorry to hear that you haven't met others like me. We're semi-rare, but we're out there ... I have plenty of friends who would probably agree with me. And, unfortunately, plenty of friends who are too antagonistic. I think the antagonism will eventually go away with another generation or two. I know a lot of young Christian folks like myself who are very, very loving and accepting people, like Christ, like they're supposed to be; instead of being ardent and unmoving.
Peace~!
Do ... do you listen to Christian Rock?
(I listen to more secular stuff really. For reference, my favorite band is Korn, which has pretty harsh lyrics unfortunately.)
OBAMACARE: GO.
It baffles me how anybody could think that anyone chooses who to be attracted to. You straight guys who hate gay people, (and yes, you do hate us, despite your probable protestations to the contrary) honestly want us to believe that you "decide" to be turned on by beautiful women with long legs and big boobs? You just are. You never "decided" anything of the sort.
My experience and my studies lead me to believe that sexual orientation is an *extremely* complex human psychological outcome of a genetic pre-disposition plus a mix of environmental triggers. One of the environmental triggers alone probably won't do it - it has to be a combination of environmental stressors acting upon the genetic predisposition.
We can reasonably assume that sexual orientation isn't *completely* genetically determined, because of identical twin cases where one is gay and the other isn't. (There are also cases of identical twins where one has a severe mental illness, such as bipolar disorder or schizophrenia, and the other does not.) Identical twin "evidence" is anecdotal, though, and therefore not the strongest of evidence.
Once the requisite factors are in place, though, the subject has no choice whatsoever to whom they are attracted. I was an eleven year old sixth grader when I got my first crush, and it was on a boy. And so the lifetime of suffering began. Suffering not because I was gay, but suffering because of the cruelty of other people - man's inhumanity to man, and all that. And of course, because of religion, and I was one of the most devout young people you could ever meet.
I think that this unfortunate topic has long since stopped having anything to do with BG:EE or with gaming.
For an overly simplified example, a usual straight male would produce 75pgr androgens and 25pgr oestrogens daily.
Make that 75 and 90 and he's gay.
Make that 75 and 75 and he's bi.
Or something. This is not the exact reason, nor does it work like that exactly. It should mostly lie within his brain neurons and his past, which will both affect his hormones and any psychological inclination towards one, the other, or both.
It is surely more complicated than that, and multifactored, however, there must be an organic explanation to every inclination we have, and it's not that easy to explain it.
According to the theory anyway, more hormones than just androgens or oestrogens play a part in sexual orientation, but they are distinct in males and females.
As for the overpopulation theory, although someone needs to check his genealogical tree for that, it is unlikely that every gay person comes from a family with a lot of children. The statistics just pointed that this occurs more frequently than it should, but in any way, the theory is not established yet, and who knows if it ever might.
So... back to the topic? :P
People raise arguments to opponents in an attempt to convince the other side to think as them, when that doesn't work (duhhh... obvious) those people resort progressively to irony, mockery and eventually bad manner and flames.
You can work examples, analogy, mathematic reasons but nothing of this matter as no one is open to reason the issue, only to discuss it. If you're gay any comment made against an homossexual behavior, no matter why, when and in which context will be seen as prejudice. By another side people that disagree with gay content in the game will by nature see any homossexual defense as radical, activist, equalists and sometimes as a kind of counter prejudice (as i see some arguments).
The facts are, Beamdog already stated that homossexual content will exist in BG, it's done, anyone that don't like deal with it (as me for example, useless it's Neera XD). Try to explain why gay romances are good will not help anyone and in reason of previous threads this topic will each time more drag more flames and bad manners.
So here is my opinion, not an opinion pro or against gay, but an opinion to this thread:
Close it.
The creator of this thread stated: The answer is:
There is 2 males and one female, the 3 new NPCs will be romanceable.
Based in comments on twitter it's know that one of the 2 male new NPCs will be bissexual, therefore if you make a male main char you have in BG 1 female romance and one bissexual male romance, if you make a female main char you have 2 straight female romances.
Now that this thread is properly answered, based on the potential damage that can come from this discussion and seizing my moment of common sense, @Tanthalas can you close this topic?