I find myself continuing to use Grease even at really high levels. Basicly anything I can throw down to keep the enemy away is good in my book. Grease, Entangle, Web, whatever.
@mlnevese ye, but the max number of images is 8 so mm will not get rid of it anyway. Concentrating any archer fire(since mages do have low ac) and then fire an area spell would accomplish much more in the same round. Not that it isnt possible, but you can probably count the applications of mm in such a way on one hand, since mm only gets 5 missiles at level9, and annihilated in utility by Melfs Meteors in bg2.
You're kidding right? Annihilated in utility by Melf's Meteors in what way? Melf's Meteors can be fired up to 5 times per round by the mage, magic missile fires 5 missiles but here's the kicker: You need to make an attack roll with Melf's Meteors! So where magic missile is definitely going to eliminate 5 mirror images whereas Melf's MAY eliminate 5 mirror images if you happen to roll well (both of these examples assume there are no protection spells active to negate either effect). You could also roll quite horribly with Melf's and not hit a single time, wasting your entire round and leaving the enemy spell caster unmolested.
Another reason why magic missile is better than Melf's Meteors is because of the game engine. Although casting a spell normally takes up your entire round (at least) spells with fast cast times may be cast in the same round as you make an attack. So, you could have your mage fire his sling and immediately after cast magic missile for the chance to remove 6 mirror images (5 garunteed). Compare this to Melf's which requires you to attack and replaces your wepon slots with the meteors... you can't possibly get the extra attack in so you have the potential to only eliminate 5.
ANOTHER reason why Magic Missile is better than Melf's Meteors is magic missile is a 1st level spell. You get way more of them early on and it doesn't compete for room with the other awesome 3rd level spells. There are sooo many better 3rd level spells than Melf's Minute Meteors! Examples: Dire Charm, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person/Hold Undead, Lightning Bolt, Protection From Normal Missiles, Remove Magic, Skull Trap, Slow, and Spell Thrust. The list of great 1st level spells competeing for precious spell slots is much MUCH lower than this.
Doesn't Melf's Minute Meteors have a very long duration time? So I can see why roller12 would defend them if that is the case. Plus even I will admit some spells lose their use over time, including MM. For instance, try using Melf's Minute Meteors against golems. You may find them to be somewhat more effective and less spell consuming.
Anyone else reading this have a wicked urge to make a 3.x wizard that only casts Magic Missiles? Use feats to shift the spell til you have nothing but instances of Magic Missile Memorized.
Protection from Evil is underrated in terms of its usefulness at higher levels. Its duration increases 2 rounds every level, and that extra -2 AC and +2 to saves can make a significant difference in the more difficult battles, especially if you've devoted your cleric's 1st level spells to other spells.
Yeah, I'd say the presence of 10' radius, combined with Paladins being able to cast it for free, are why it doesn't get too much love. Great spell, but it's not really something your mage needs to memorize. Especially since Clerics also get it - and Cleric lvl 1 spells aren't nearly as good as Mage.
MM is good for causing casting failure as it is instant cast.
magic missilies are not instant cast. You guys are quite amazing in spitting out random "facts" to support wild theories for no apparent reason.
Magic missle has a cast time of one, one segment. That's functionally 1 second, unless they actually use the original rules for a combat round lasting a full minute. If you want something closer to point and shoot you need to play a first person shooter. On top of that it never misses, can be targeted at things that don't have mirror images as well things that do, and the only options that stop it are shield and the brooch of shielding (which I'm not even sure is in the video game) or magic resistance. With the exception of the clay and iron golem, there are no special resistances or immunities to the spell, which means it hurts every time. This is the reason they dialed the damage down in 2nd edition. In 1st edition, this spell could be used to shut down dragons, demons, devils, and with repeated castings even several of the various demon and devil lords. You are the one who is spouting random facts without any support. We are the ones who understand the game better than you do.
Roller12 is talking about high level spells mostly I think. He mentioned level 30 mage at one point. The Spell Sequencer, Spell Trigger, and Power Words (instant silence, blind, stun, and death) sort of all outshine Magic Missile later on. Mind you, two of those spells can be loaded with Magic Missiles, although I would rather put other spells in them.
When I first played BG II, what grabbed my attention were the Power Words. Here are some points about them.
(1) Power Word: Silence works against any amount of HP.
(2) Power Word: Stun will work up to 89 HP.
(3) Power Word: Blind is any amount of HP, and with a 10' radius.
(4) Power Word: Kill works up to and including 60 HP.
(5) There are no saves for any of these.
(6) They all have the same cast time as Magic Missile, but instantaneously affect the target, whereas Magic Missiles, and many other disablers like Sleep and Hold Person, have to travel to the target.
There's also the fact that the Robe of Vecna makes a lot of spells instant cast, which trivializes Magic Missile to some extent (mind you, I don't use any of the items from that NPC because they are gimmicky--the Helm of Vhailor being another cheap item I avoid).
True, but they're all higher level, especially power word kill. Magic missle is spammable because of how low its level is. Even if you play the original table top game and reach absurd level, you don't go chucking 9th level spells around randomly (I know, I have a 37th level 1st edition mage).
The spell description for Armor states that it's duration is 10 turns. It's been four years since I played, so please refresh my memory: how long does a turn last?
I will always love magic missile at higher levels, though I mostly sequentured them, 5d4+5 was ok to cast on an easy fight to finish things off from time to time, but 15d4+15 is always nice. I didnt use it all the time as my sequencur, but I did many times for single target damage, there is no saving throw so you always know roughy the amount of damage your going to get out of it. If two mages cast it at the same time is pretty much guaranteed to deal 100+ damage instantly.
The spell description for Armor states that it's duration is 10 turns. It's been four years since I played, so please refresh my memory: how long does a turn last?
@mlnevese ye, but the max number of images is 8 so mm will not get rid of it anyway. Concentrating any archer fire(since mages do have low ac) and then fire an area spell would accomplish much more in the same round. Not that it isnt possible, but you can probably count the applications of mm in such a way on one hand, since mm only gets 5 missiles at level9, and annihilated in utility by Melfs Meteors in bg2.
You're kidding right? Annihilated in utility by Melf's Meteors in what way? Melf's Meteors can be fired up to 5 times per round by the mage, magic missile fires 5 missiles but here's the kicker: You need to make an attack roll with Melf's Meteors! So where magic missile is definitely going to eliminate 5 mirror images whereas Melf's MAY eliminate 5 mirror images if you happen to roll well (both of these examples assume there are no protection spells active to negate either effect). You could also roll quite horribly with Melf's and not hit a single time, wasting your entire round and leaving the enemy spell caster unmolested.
Another reason why magic missile is better than Melf's Meteors is because of the game engine. Although casting a spell normally takes up your entire round (at least) spells with fast cast times may be cast in the same round as you make an attack. So, you could have your mage fire his sling and immediately after cast magic missile for the chance to remove 6 mirror images (5 garunteed). Compare this to Melf's which requires you to attack and replaces your wepon slots with the meteors... you can't possibly get the extra attack in so you have the potential to only eliminate 5.
ANOTHER reason why Magic Missile is better than Melf's Meteors is magic missile is a 1st level spell. You get way more of them early on and it doesn't compete for room with the other awesome 3rd level spells. There are sooo many better 3rd level spells than Melf's Minute Meteors! Examples: Dire Charm, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person/Hold Undead, Lightning Bolt, Protection From Normal Missiles, Remove Magic, Skull Trap, Slow, and Spell Thrust. The list of great 1st level spells competeing for precious spell slots is much MUCH lower than this.
MM is good for causing casting failure as it is instant cast.
magic missilies are not instant cast. You guys are quite amazing in spitting out random "facts" to support wild theories for no apparent reason.
You my friend are the one making up "facts" by saying Melf's is in any way a better "utility" (your words) spell than Magic Missile.
That is just an asinine debate. No offense to this well written defense of magic missile which makes some good points but it is like arguing between Improved Invisibility and Stoneskin as if they were mutually exclusive choices when they are best used together.
Guess what? Melf's and Magic Missile work together perfectly! If you have a mage with 8 images you want to disrupt, fire off a magic missile and then, instead of making a single melee attack for the rest of the round, start firing the meteors. You can knock out all 8 images in the same round whereas your best case with only magic missile or only melf's is 5 images.
Melf's is much better if I had to only choose one (blended with Web they are awesome) but Melf's and Magic Missile work together so very well that there is absolutely no point in debateing between them. Instead, the discussion should be how they can be used in coordination.
Since I never play mage, this is a very enligtening thread for me. I'm learning a lot about things I didn't pay much attention to. I generally cast 'the most damaging spell available' with mages (I'm that simplistic with magic) and focus on melee bashing. I'm missing out on something, clearly.
What is missing in your observations is that each Meteor removes 3 layers of MI and does fire damage too, which goes right though stoneskin as well. Comparing MM and Melf is utterly pointless. Melfs kills even demiliches. MM is virtually equivalent to shooting darts or arrows. Mages have bad AC so hitting is not a problem.
Magic missle has a cast time of one, one segment. That's functionally 1 second, unless they actually use the original rules for a combat round lasting a full minute. If you want something closer to point and shoot you need to play a first person shooter. On top of that it never misses, can be targeted at things that don't have mirror images as well things that do, and the only options that stop it are shield and the brooch of shielding (which I'm not even sure is in the video game) or magic resistance. With the exception of the clay and iron golem, there are no special resistances or immunities to the spell, which means it hurts every time. This is the reason they dialed the damage down in 2nd edition. In 1st edition, this spell could be used to shut down dragons, demons, devils, and with repeated castings even several of the various demon and devil lords. You are the one who is spouting random facts without any support. We are the ones who understand the game better than you do.
What a load of theorycrafting. Original rules? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, do you even have the game? I take it you didnt bother to read my post before "replying", which includes a description of another level1 spell granting total immunity to magic missiles you claim noone but golems have immunity to. In fact there are spells in this game, granting immunity to whole spell levels. But at least you should acknowledge that your "experience" in PnP means absolutely nothing here and stop trying to argue with "facts" which have zero relevance aside from sounding the same.
Play the game first guys! Then "discuss". Sorry, didnt bother to comment other posts, cause they are virtually all the same collection of "facts", represented by above quotes.
@Roller12, take a moment to calm down. The tone you've adapted in this thread is more than a little confrontational and borders on flaming.
More to the point, the spell you're defending isn't a level 1 spell. Of course it's going to be a better spell than Magic Missile. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Well actually i was replying to a guy who claimed that magic missile is better that Melfs Meteor. I know im probably the only one reading these posts..
Another reason why magic missile is better than Melf's Meteors is because of the game engine.
ye, but the max number of images is 8 so mm will not get rid of it anyway. Concentrating any archer fire(since mages do have low ac) and then fire an area spell would accomplish much more in the same round. Not that it isnt possible, but you can probably count the applications of mm in such a way on one hand, since mm only gets 5 missiles at level9, and annihilated in utility by Melfs Meteors in bg2.
So you pulled out one sentence, and derailed the thread because of it.
Let's go ahead and agree to disagree, or whatever. That was a dozen posts that really didn't need to happen.
Good thinking. So where were we.. Ah. Well MM does have an utility later in the game. Much later, where is is a good way of getting rid of mordenkainen's swords who are immune to everything but banish spells and magic damage. Modded enemies love casting mordenkainen's swords and they are indeed quite the pain.
Roller12 is talking about high level spells mostly I think. He mentioned level 30 mage at one point. The Spell Sequencer, Spell Trigger, and Power Words (instant silence, blind, stun, and death) sort of all outshine Magic Missile later on. Mind you, two of those spells can be loaded with Magic Missiles, although I would rather put other spells in them.
When I first played BG II, what grabbed my attention were the Power Words. Here are some points about them.
(1) Power Word: Silence works against any amount of HP.
(2) Power Word: Stun will work up to 89 HP.
(3) Power Word: Blind is any amount of HP, and with a 10' radius.
(4) Power Word: Kill works up to and including 60 HP.
(5) There are no saves for any of these.
(6) They all have the same cast time as Magic Missile, but instantaneously affect the target, whereas Magic Missiles, and many other disablers like Sleep and Hold Person, have to travel to the target.
There's also the fact that the Robe of Vecna makes a lot of spells instant cast, which trivializes Magic Missile to some extent (mind you, I don't use any of the items from that NPC because they are gimmicky--the Helm of Vhailor being another cheap item I avoid).
True, but they're all higher level, especially power word kill. Magic missle is spammable because of how low its level is. Even if you play the original table top game and reach absurd level, you don't go chucking 9th level spells around randomly (I know, I have a 37th level 1st edition mage).
Well Irenicus is a level 40 Mage, and never casts Magic Missile once :P
His favourites include Flesh to Stone (with a Flame Arrow finish), Disintegrate, Death, Finger of Death, and Power Word Kill, among other unique spells that make his enemies explode.
I get your point though. I wasn't talking about spells to spam. As a mage, I wouldn't be spamming anything to be honest. I prefer a more diversified style, with no duplicates of any spell memorized, unless the battle has been planned (in the rp sense-i.e. I know x's weakness), and only use something if it will help greatly (i.e. it's something the others either can't do or else desperately need).
But if we're talking about BG in the action rpg sense, MM is definitely the first spell you get to spam as a mage, and you're apt to waste a low lvl spell like MM on a weaker creature just to make the battle go by faster, while less apt to waste a high level spell, since the fighter or thief of the group can easily do the rest of the work.
That being said, MM is good for weakening enemies that might be difficult for the melee/ranged/backstabbers, and ofc multiple sequencers can total very powerful enemies if they have no magic resistance.
@elminster Are you playing BG1 through Tutu? I looked at my mage's spellbook in vanilla BG1 and it's with my second level spells. It's also listed as being second level here
So Magic Missile has a sweet spot of... what? say, about midway through BG1 to midway through BG2?
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fun spell. But there are a lot more effective ones for me to use at low level, especially given that I have fewer spell slots. And by very high level it doesn't seem all that effective. Or I know there are more effective spells I can cast, I should say.
Anyway, I just seem to get more bang for my buck with a lot of other spells in the game.
In my experience Magic Missile stays useful pretty much throughout the entire game, considering it's one of the most reliable ways to interrupt spellcasters. Granted, it only works when it works. If you are facing a lich with contingencies and spell immunities set up, chances are no level 1 spell will do you any good.
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Another reason why magic missile is better than Melf's Meteors is because of the game engine. Although casting a spell normally takes up your entire round (at least) spells with fast cast times may be cast in the same round as you make an attack. So, you could have your mage fire his sling and immediately after cast magic missile for the chance to remove 6 mirror images (5 garunteed). Compare this to Melf's which requires you to attack and replaces your wepon slots with the meteors... you can't possibly get the extra attack in so you have the potential to only eliminate 5.
ANOTHER reason why Magic Missile is better than Melf's Meteors is magic missile is a 1st level spell. You get way more of them early on and it doesn't compete for room with the other awesome 3rd level spells. There are sooo many better 3rd level spells than Melf's Minute Meteors! Examples: Dire Charm, Dispel Magic, Fireball, Haste, Hold Person/Hold Undead, Lightning Bolt, Protection From Normal Missiles, Remove Magic, Skull Trap, Slow, and Spell Thrust. The list of great 1st level spells competeing for precious spell slots is much MUCH lower than this. You my friend are the one making up "facts" by saying Melf's is in any way a better "utility" (your words) spell than Magic Missile.
I think that's a sign I should go to sleep. =-p
On top of that it never misses, can be targeted at things that don't have mirror images as well things that do, and the only options that stop it are shield and the brooch of shielding (which I'm not even sure is in the video game) or magic resistance. With the exception of the clay and iron golem, there are no special resistances or immunities to the spell, which means it hurts every time. This is the reason they dialed the damage down in 2nd edition. In 1st edition, this spell could be used to shut down dragons, demons, devils, and with repeated castings even several of the various demon and devil lords. You are the one who is spouting random facts without any support. We are the ones who understand the game better than you do.
1 round = 6 seconds
(But in the original game, Armor lasted for 9 hours.)
Guess what? Melf's and Magic Missile work together perfectly! If you have a mage with 8 images you want to disrupt, fire off a magic missile and then, instead of making a single melee attack for the rest of the round, start firing the meteors. You can knock out all 8 images in the same round whereas your best case with only magic missile or only melf's is 5 images.
Melf's is much better if I had to only choose one (blended with Web they are awesome) but Melf's and Magic Missile work together so very well that there is absolutely no point in debateing between them. Instead, the discussion should be how they can be used in coordination.
More to the point, the spell you're defending isn't a level 1 spell. Of course it's going to be a better spell than Magic Missile. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
Let's go ahead and agree to disagree, or whatever. That was a dozen posts that really didn't need to happen.
His favourites include Flesh to Stone (with a Flame Arrow finish), Disintegrate, Death, Finger of Death, and Power Word Kill, among other unique spells that make his enemies explode.
I get your point though. I wasn't talking about spells to spam. As a mage, I wouldn't be spamming anything to be honest. I prefer a more diversified style, with no duplicates of any spell memorized, unless the battle has been planned (in the rp sense-i.e. I know x's weakness), and only use something if it will help greatly (i.e. it's something the others either can't do or else desperately need).
But if we're talking about BG in the action rpg sense, MM is definitely the first spell you get to spam as a mage, and you're apt to waste a low lvl spell like MM on a weaker creature just to make the battle go by faster, while less apt to waste a high level spell, since the fighter or thief of the group can easily do the rest of the work.
That being said, MM is good for weakening enemies that might be difficult for the melee/ranged/backstabbers, and ofc multiple sequencers can total very powerful enemies if they have no magic resistance.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a fun spell. But there are a lot more effective ones for me to use at low level, especially given that I have fewer spell slots. And by very high level it doesn't seem all that effective. Or I know there are more effective spells I can cast, I should say.
Anyway, I just seem to get more bang for my buck with a lot of other spells in the game.
I wonder why in the world they moved it in BG2 considering you gave almost no need for it in that game.