“To me that’s the last check mark of yes, we can stand on our own two feet. Yes we can create our own content and its good, and fans will enjoy it.”
An interesting conclusion, given that there's no consensus that Beamdog's content thus far was good and that fans enjoyed it. At best, you can say the reception has been mixed, even here.
Consensus: A process of decision-making. A group decision-making process that seeks the consent of all participants. Consensus may be defined professionally as an acceptable resolution, one that can be supported, even if not the "favourite" of each individual.
Are you saying that Beamdog is not acceptable resolution for producing new content and programming to allow a game that would not otherwise run on android, mac or even Windows 7+? Have another group of other people out there have better alternatives that are not being put into practice? I don't believe this is so.
I think you need to rewrite your post and state that this is your opinion, and not hide behind imaginary others.
I suppose I just wish to state you do not speak for me. (Please note I cannot speak or vouch for others either.)
Consensus: A process of decision-making. A group decision-making process that seeks the consent of all participants. Consensus may be defined professionally as an acceptable resolution, one that can be supported, even if not the "favourite" of each individual.
Are you saying that Beamdog is not acceptable resolution for producing new content and programming to allow a game that would not otherwise run on android, mac or even Windows 7+? Have another group of other people out there have better alternatives that are not being put into practice? I don't believe this is so.
I think you need to rewrite your post and state that this is your opinion, and not hide behind imaginary others.
I suppose I just wish to state you do not speak for me. (Please note I cannot speak or vouch for others either.)
“To me that’s the last check mark of yes, we can stand on our own two feet. Yes we can create our own content and its good, and fans will enjoy it.”
An interesting conclusion, given that there's no consensus that Beamdog's content thus far was good and that fans enjoyed it. At best, you can say the reception has been mixed, even here.
Consensus is rarely going to mean 'by unanimous agreement', it means there is enough of a plurality that agrees. Many important political decisions are not universally loved, but are still brought about for myriad socio-economic reasons. Waiting for everyone to agree to something is not conducive to productivity or success!
Not that this means you have to agree personally, or even that a majority of the world agrees (I wager a great many people have never heard of Baldur's Gate, and have no opinion. Or even a computer).
@Anduin: No need to be disingenuous. Go ahead and Google Hexxat, see what people who played the EEs say about her here and elsewhere. Look up the Youtube LPs and see what new content those players chose to access, and what content they didn't. Listen to what they have to say.
I said reception of the new content was mixed. That's not opinion, it's a fact - one with no shortage of evidence behind it. You can choose to interpret that fact in whatever way you wish, that's up to you.
@Anduin: No need to be disingenuous. Go ahead and Google Hexxat, see what people who played the EEs say about her here and elsewhere. Look up the Youtube LPs and see what new content those players chose to access, and what content they didn't. Listen to what they have to say.
I said reception of the new content was mixed. That's not opinion, it's a fact - one with no shortage of evidence behind it. You can choose to interpret that fact in whatever way you wish, that's up to you.
In all fairness, it would almost be a mathematical impossibility for the reception to be homogenous. If it's enjoyable, play it. I hope enough people support Beamdog so we can see what's next (which I'll wager, that reception will be "mixed" again).
Disliking Hexxat does not mean disliking BG2EE, let alone BG1EE and IWDEE. Thats a bit of a leap.
I am not saying everyone likes the EEs, as Enilwyn said not everyone is going to like everything, let alone the granularities of how an idea is implemented.
“To me that’s the last check mark of yes, we can stand on our own two feet. Yes we can create our own content and its good, and fans will enjoy it.”
An interesting conclusion, given that there's no consensus that Beamdog's content thus far was good and that fans enjoyed it. At best, you can say the reception has been mixed, even here.
Can they create their own content: Yes Is it good: Debatable, depending person's taste and opinion. Will fans enjoy it. As long as 2 people enjoy it, then yes his statement is true.
No idea what makes the conclusion interesting except gives you another reason to state your opinion of the company as fact.
What random people on the internet say isn't a consensus. The only consensus that can be obtained, is sales from content that was exclusively created by them. None of their releases has done this yet, Adventure Y is the first and will be the next measuring stick of their progression as a company. If people have faith in them and purchase this product to meet or exceed their internal goals, then it will be considered successful regardless of what individual opinions of the release are.
@DreadKhan: It was an example. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.
@deltago: What part of "the reception has been mixed, even here" is giving you difficulty? Some people liked it, some people didn't. That's a long way from marketing your new game by saying people just loved the last one.
DreadKhan: It was an example. I didn't think I needed to spell that out.
deltago: What part of "the reception has been mixed, even here" is giving you difficulty? Some people liked it, some people didn't. That's a long way from marketing your new game by saying people just loved the last one.
the part of you bringing it up and it having nothing to do with what Trent said, or anything else related in this post.
My problem with your example though is that it is very, very limited. Hexxat is a small part of BG2EE. A great counter point is how many games manage mediocre scores from critics, and as a result are economicly unsucessful. Or movies that are Criticly Acclaimed, but a tedious bore to nearly everyone and are limited to a small viewership.
Heck, Star Trek was a big flop originally. But a plurality of fans offered enough support for quite a few movies, and eventually, the reboot Next Generation.
Ultimately, the Market Will Decide, as this is capitalism.
@DreadKhan: When the subject of discussion is Beamdog content, then no, that's not a small part at all. And regardless, as I said, it's just one example - there are others. You really don't have to look too far or too hard.
The point, for @deltago's benefit, is that the EEs weren't universally well-received. If that's the assumption and the standard Beamdog's working with, there's no reason to believe the next one will be any better.
The point, for deltago's benefit, is that the EEs weren't universally well-received. If that's the assumption and the standard Beamdog's working with, there's no reason to believe the next one will be any better.
Dragon Age 2 wasn't universally well-received either. Yet had 3 expansions that addressed the concerns of their loyal fan base. Did everyone buy the expansions and praise them? No. But it allowed Bioware to increase their profits, determine how large of a loyal fan base the franchise had and used what they learned from the experience to release a much improved gaming experience with Inquisition.
Your reasoning suggests Bioware should of thrown in the towel of Dragon Age franchise because it wasn't well-received and the standards that they were working with were lacking.
@DreadKhan: When the subject of discussion is Beamdog content, then no, that's not a small part at all. And regardless, as I said, it's just one example - there are others. You really don't have to look too far or too hard.
The point, for @deltago's benefit, is that the EEs weren't universally well-received. If that's the assumption and the standard Beamdog's working with, there's no reason to believe the next one will be any better.
The problem is that even if every single player disliked Hexxat, that would only prove that Hexxat is disliked. The EEs are much more than just Hexxat. Additionally, there are also plenty of examples of positive feedback. So, either we must disregard one subset of the data, or we have to accept there is no unanimous decisions on Hexxat.
I still accept that not everyone likes the EEs, but that does not prove that there is not a significant number of people interested in Adventure Y, or that believe that Beamdog is the team to do it.
Just my two cents, but I believe Trent was saying that, based on what they've learned, and if Adventure Y is successful, then they can check those boxes. He wasn't speaking about past products, he is saying that if Adventure Y works and is received well it will boost their confidence and give them more reason to create stand-alone games. So... I think this whole argument is silly.
Despite that, I agree with most here that in the end, the money will talk. If they create a product that earns them money, it is a success regardless of personal opinion. Bug fixes, modern computing updates and yes, the learning curve of getting into this project in the first place makes them well-positioned to produce a better product than anyone else in this niche market. The stand-alone game will be an interesting test to see if a game created from whole cloth by Beamdog is entertaining and worthy of the Baldur's Gate branding.
I also have personal opinions. I like the Beamdog additions, including the NPCs, including Hexxat. I think the graphic background in the new zones was slightly out-of-synch with the old backgrounds, but it didn't stop me from enjoying them. I anticipate the following in Adventure Y:
* More uniform appearance, causing less jarring scene changes
* Far fewer bugs than the initial BG:EE release (hopefully almost none)
* Top-notch voice acting where the budget allows
* A real demonstration of the Beamdog writers' chops, for good or ill
* Fun!
* Fewer homosexual romances, due to whining from the masses (Boooo to this! Please surprise me on this point)
* Easter eggs ^_~
These are my opinions, obviously, but in a forum dialogue that seems relevant to our thread.
@DreadKhan: When the subject of discussion is Beamdog content, then no, that's not a small part at all. And regardless, as I said, it's just one example - there are others. You really don't have to look too far or too hard.
The point, for @deltago's benefit, is that the EEs weren't universally well-received. If that's the assumption and the standard Beamdog's working with, there's no reason to believe the next one will be any better.
Whether or not people liked specific aspects of the new content, I think its pretty universal that people prefered it to no new content.
It has to be difficult to create new content for some of the most beloved western RPGs of all time and have it stand up to scrutiny - the original content in BG1 and BG2 set a standard that's very hard to surpass, or even reach.
That said, I have some issues with the new EE content, especially in how it was connected to existing content.
First, it is baffling to me why both of the Black Pits episodes were conceived as separate, alternate campaigns when the original campaigns are the reason why people love Baldur's Gate. I don't think many people fire up these games with the specific intention to skip the storyline.
Second, I don't think it was a good decision to have almost all of the new content in the original campaigns require the player to pick up certain NPCs into their parties where there were plenty of companions to choose from to begin with. Instead, the new content should have been designed like the De'Arnise Keep, where the content is tightly connected to an NPC's (Nalia's) story, but you also have the option to access the mission without having said NPC join your party. That approach doesn't shut off the content depending on your party composition.
I'm curious to see what Beamdog comes up with in an entirely new game where they don't need to conform to existing game content. At least the issues I've mentioned above should no longer be a problem.
The fact that ALL the new content is linked to the NPCs was my main criticism of the EE original stuff. I actually enjoyed the Black Pits, but I would have much rather had a new area on the Amn map that you can visit to have a massive side-quest (equal in size to The Black Pits) ala Watcher's Keep. I mean, it could have even been The Black Pits for all we know (Trials of the Luremaster also didn't give you the option to escape but it was still pretty fun).
I think its important for the developers to know what people like/did not like about the new content. I have some faith that they understand many fan's disappointment with the modernisms and Americanisms in Neera's speech and in the journals that another poster recently began a thread about.
Anyway, even despite some flaws, I still enjoyed the new content. I liked Neera despite her at times awkward dialogue, so fans can be forgiving. But overall I wish there was more Rasaad (and less Neera) in the new content.
@Shawne As much as I dislike your what"I"wouldconsidertobetrolling I must say I enjoy the interesting discussion that follows. Thank you for your contribution.
Comments
Consensus: A process of decision-making. A group decision-making process that seeks the consent of all participants. Consensus may be defined professionally as an acceptable resolution, one that can be supported, even if not the "favourite" of each individual.
Are you saying that Beamdog is not acceptable resolution for producing new content and programming to allow a game that would not otherwise run on android, mac or even Windows 7+? Have another group of other people out there have better alternatives that are not being put into practice? I don't believe this is so.
I think you need to rewrite your post and state that this is your opinion, and not hide behind imaginary others.
I suppose I just wish to state you do not speak for me. (Please note I cannot speak or vouch for others either.)
She's cute.
Therefore I like the new content.
Not that this means you have to agree personally, or even that a majority of the world agrees (I wager a great many people have never heard of Baldur's Gate, and have no opinion. Or even a computer).
They will not be able to play adventure y...
*Anduin gasps at his amazing ability to get back on topic...*
I said reception of the new content was mixed. That's not opinion, it's a fact - one with no shortage of evidence behind it. You can choose to interpret that fact in whatever way you wish, that's up to you.
I am not saying everyone likes the EEs, as Enilwyn said not everyone is going to like everything, let alone the granularities of how an idea is implemented.
Is it good: Debatable, depending person's taste and opinion.
Will fans enjoy it. As long as 2 people enjoy it, then yes his statement is true.
No idea what makes the conclusion interesting except gives you another reason to state your opinion of the company as fact.
What random people on the internet say isn't a consensus. The only consensus that can be obtained, is sales from content that was exclusively created by them. None of their releases has done this yet, Adventure Y is the first and will be the next measuring stick of their progression as a company. If people have faith in them and purchase this product to meet or exceed their internal goals, then it will be considered successful regardless of what individual opinions of the release are.
@deltago: What part of "the reception has been mixed, even here" is giving you difficulty? Some people liked it, some people didn't. That's a long way from marketing your new game by saying people just loved the last one.
Heck, Star Trek was a big flop originally. But a plurality of fans offered enough support for quite a few movies, and eventually, the reboot Next Generation.
Ultimately, the Market Will Decide, as this is capitalism.
The point, for @deltago's benefit, is that the EEs weren't universally well-received. If that's the assumption and the standard Beamdog's working with, there's no reason to believe the next one will be any better.
Your reasoning suggests Bioware should of thrown in the towel of Dragon Age franchise because it wasn't well-received and the standards that they were working with were lacking.
It doesn't, and never works that way.
Looking at Metacritic, http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/baldurs-gate-ii-enhanced-edition we see a decent average score, for a rework of an old game. None of the reviews from the critics are poor, note.
I still accept that not everyone likes the EEs, but that does not prove that there is not a significant number of people interested in Adventure Y, or that believe that Beamdog is the team to do it.
Despite that, I agree with most here that in the end, the money will talk. If they create a product that earns them money, it is a success regardless of personal opinion. Bug fixes, modern computing updates and yes, the learning curve of getting into this project in the first place makes them well-positioned to produce a better product than anyone else in this niche market. The stand-alone game will be an interesting test to see if a game created from whole cloth by Beamdog is entertaining and worthy of the Baldur's Gate branding.
I also have personal opinions. I like the Beamdog additions, including the NPCs, including Hexxat. I think the graphic background in the new zones was slightly out-of-synch with the old backgrounds, but it didn't stop me from enjoying them. I anticipate the following in Adventure Y:
* More uniform appearance, causing less jarring scene changes
* Far fewer bugs than the initial BG:EE release (hopefully almost none)
* Top-notch voice acting where the budget allows
* A real demonstration of the Beamdog writers' chops, for good or ill
* Fun!
* Fewer homosexual romances, due to whining from the masses (Boooo to this! Please surprise me on this point)
* Easter eggs ^_~
These are my opinions, obviously, but in a forum dialogue that seems relevant to our thread.
I enjoy your existence.
You should continue to do that.
That said, I have some issues with the new EE content, especially in how it was connected to existing content.
First, it is baffling to me why both of the Black Pits episodes were conceived as separate, alternate campaigns when the original campaigns are the reason why people love Baldur's Gate. I don't think many people fire up these games with the specific intention to skip the storyline.
Second, I don't think it was a good decision to have almost all of the new content in the original campaigns require the player to pick up certain NPCs into their parties where there were plenty of companions to choose from to begin with. Instead, the new content should have been designed like the De'Arnise Keep, where the content is tightly connected to an NPC's (Nalia's) story, but you also have the option to access the mission without having said NPC join your party. That approach doesn't shut off the content depending on your party composition.
I'm curious to see what Beamdog comes up with in an entirely new game where they don't need to conform to existing game content. At least the issues I've mentioned above should no longer be a problem.
The fact that ALL the new content is linked to the NPCs was my main criticism of the EE original stuff. I actually enjoyed the Black Pits, but I would have much rather had a new area on the Amn map that you can visit to have a massive side-quest (equal in size to The Black Pits) ala Watcher's Keep. I mean, it could have even been The Black Pits for all we know (Trials of the Luremaster also didn't give you the option to escape but it was still pretty fun).
I think its important for the developers to know what people like/did not like about the new content. I have some faith that they understand many fan's disappointment with the modernisms and Americanisms in Neera's speech and in the journals that another poster recently began a thread about.
Anyway, even despite some flaws, I still enjoyed the new content. I liked Neera despite her at times awkward dialogue, so fans can be forgiving. But overall I wish there was more Rasaad (and less Neera) in the new content.
Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, English: 679,217 words
Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition, English: 1,248,473 words
Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition DLC Content, English: 396,359 words
Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition: 573,247 words
Adventure Y will come in well above the BGII:EE DLC Content, and somewhere below IWD:EE.
Do we get a prize if we guess the word count exactly?
396,360!