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[MOD][BETA] Tome and Blood: More Options for Wizards and Sorcerers

AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
edited January 2017 in General Modding
Tome and Blood v0.70 is now available for download.

Tome and Blood is the largest arcane magic mod for the Infinity Engine games. The current version of Tome and Blood boasts reworks for all existing Mage and Sorcerer kits, five original and unique Sorcerer kits, and nine mechanics tweaks directed at arcane magic and associated systems.

The current release of Tome and Blood offers the following features. A more comprehensive readme is available online here (Chrome only) or as a pdf file attached to this post.

This component revises the Specialist Mage features to emphasize the unique specialties of each school of magic, and establishes Necromancy as the only prohibited school of magic. Each type of specialist now automatically gains spells of their chosen school, as well as protection against the magic they typically wield.

This component expands Dragon Disciples to include the various other types of dragons, rather than just fire dragons. There are four Dragon Disciple kits, each one dealing with a specific element tied to several different types of chromatic and metallic dragons.

This component introduces the Magus kit for Sorcerers, which blends martial prowess with arcane knowledge.

This component introduces the Favoured Soul kit for Sorcerers; Favoured Souls trace their sorcerous powers to the gods, and thus gain access to spells usually beyond the reach of Sorcerers.

This component introduces the Revenant Disciple kit for Sorcerers, which represents Sorcerers who can attribute their powers to some undead ancestor.

This component introduces the Sylvan Disciple kit for Sorcerers, which is for Sorcerers who develop their mystical powers due to some long-forgotten intermingling of mortal and fey.

This component introduces the Amorphous Disciple kit for Sorcerers, a kit for Sorcerers with the foul ichor of oozes running through their veins.

This component makes Find Familiar an innate ability for all Mages and Sorcerers.

This component enables Bards to cast arcane spells while wearing Leather and Studded Leather armors.

This component grants Mages and Sorcerers the ability to use their powers to craft magical items, such as wands, potions, and scrolls.

Cantrips are minor magical effects that Mages and Sorcerers can manifest at will. This component offers two options for cantrip systems: innate and first level. Innate cantrips are minor abilities that are usable once per six seconds. First level cantrips revises all first level spells and allows them to recharge upon use. Both components offer Mages and Sorcerers the ability to never run out of spells.

This component revises various spells in order to balance the list of spells available from each school. Some spells have been moved to different levels or schools and some are more extensively affected.

This component changes certain metamagic-type spells into innate abilities and revises the various magical protection defenses and counters.

This component provides bonuses to Mages, Sorcerers, and Bards with sufficiently high primary attributes. These bonuses include low level spell slots, and, for Sorcerers, caster level bonuses.

This component fundamentally changes the way that Sorcerers learn new spells. Instead of selecting spells during character creation and at level-up, Sorcerers are now granted an innate ability (Spell Knowledge) that emulates the spell selection screen through a dialogue menu.

In order to install this, simply extract the attached TomeAndBlood.rar file to your data/00### folder and run SetUp-TomeAndBlood.exe. If you have an existing version of TomeAndBlood, it is strongly encouraged to completely uninstall the old version before installing this version.

A list of known bugs is available here. If you encounter a bug while playing this mod, I encourage you to report it in this thread with important details so that I may attempt to fix it.

None to my knowledge. Go out and find some!

A list of all mod version changes is available here.

Version 0.7
- Total overhaul of all existing components.
- New Feature: Added the Ability Score Bonuses component.
- New Feature: Added the Level One Cantrips subcomponent.
- New Feature: Added the Innate Familiar component.
- New Feature: Added the Favoured Soul component.

Version 0.62
- Specialist Mages: Fixed a bug where specialist mages were unable to use scrolls.
- Arcane Crafting: Condensed all crafting abilities down to a single ability to reduce bloat.
- Compatibility: Added compatibility for More Style for Mages.

Version 0.61
- Spell Selection Dialog: Fixed an issue where this component was incompatible with certain mod installations. (This fix also fixes similar issues with the Oracle component.)
- Specialist Mages: Fixed an issued where the component wouldn't install if Spell Revision v4 was detected.
- Spell Tweaks: Added an installation requirement to prevent odd behavior.

Version 0.6
- General : Overhauled the descriptions and systems used in this mod, with particular aim on making the mod content more modular (to allow for greater customization) and subtle (by adopting the styles of the non-mod content in class descriptions).
- General : Extended compatibility to the non-Enhanced Editions where possible. Certain mod components now work with installations of BG2, BGT and TuTu, as well as the Enhanced Editions.
- Dragon Disciples: Changed from 10 kits to 4, reflecting the four different elements of Dragon Disciple ancestors.
- Spell Select through Dialog : Fixed the issue where the ability would loop at the highest known spell level.
- Specialist Mages : Replaced the Specialist Kits component with @subtledoctor 's Specialist Mages component from Scales of Balance.
- New Features: Incorporated the Metamagic, Spell Battles, Cantrips, and Spell Tweaks components from Scales of Balance into this mod.
- Red Wizard Edwin : Removed the Edwin components, due to an overhaul of the specialist mage system.
- Numerous small bugs and string fixes.

Version 0.5
- Core Revisions: Fixed an issue where Dragon Disciples were using a d4 hit die rather than a d6.
- Core Revisions: Fixed an issue with some strings erroneously showing the updated Sorcerer descriptions.
- Armored Casting: Fixed an issue where Mages, Sorcerers and Bards (and all subclasses and kits) could not wear helmets.
- Expanded Weapons: Fixed an issue where Mages were not able to equip arrows.
- Oracle: Added the Oracles of Murder and Oracle of Eyes kits.

Version 0.4
- Core Revisions: Conjurers now receive a d6 hit die.
- Core Revisions: All Mages and Sorcerers are now able to obtain a Familiar.
- Core Revisions: Now also removes Nahal’s Reckless Dweomer, Chaos Shield and Improved Chaos Shield from the spell selection menu.
- Updated Schools: Dispel Magic is moved from Abjuration to General.
- Arcane Crafting: Changes the number of charges on crafted wands.
- Magus: Removed the bonus attack per round from specialization and at 7th or 13th level.
- Mod: Fixed all compatibility issues with Pecca's More Style for Mages mod.
- General: Fixed an issue where kit bonus spells were sometimes not being granted.
- Core: Fixed text issues with the names of Brass Dragon Disciples.
- Bloodlines: Fixed an issue where Sorcerers and Mages would have the wrong innates if the Bloodline Kits component was installed.
- Oracle: Fixed an issue where Oracle bonus spells were sometimes not counted for spells known.
- Oracle: Fixed an issue where Oracles of Life would not receive Cure Light Wounds.
- Oracle: Fixed an issue where Oracles would still have the Declare Mystery ability, even after declaring one.
- Oracle: Fixed text issues with the names of Oracles of Winter.
- New Feature: Added the Specialist Mage Kits component.
- New Feature: Added the Dynaheir, Xan and Edwin components.
- New Feature: Added the Specialist Kits for NPCs component.
- New Feature: Added the Bloodline Kits for NPCs components.
- New Feature: Added Brew Potion and Recharge Wands to Arcane Crafting.

Version 0.31
- Armored Casting: Fixed an installation error where Armored Casting tried to update bloodlines that hadn't been installed yet.
- Oracle & Magus: Fixed the bug in which Oracle and Magi paperdolls were not properly displaying armor.
- Oracle & Magus: Fixed a bug where Oracles of Battle and Magi would not suffer a THAC0 penalty from wielding weapons they were not proficient in.
- Magus: Fixed a bug that prevented the Magus from choosing spells during level-ups or character creation and from using scrolls.

Version 0.3
- General: Updated class descriptions for all kits (existing and mod)
- Core: Replaced the Dragon Disciple's Breath Weapon with a +1 Armor Class.
- Core: Revised opposed schools and specialists.
- Core: Incorporated Divination spells into Generalist and removed Diviners
- Core: Allowed Dragon Disciples to choose a draconic ancestor.
- Bloodlines: Removed Bloodline Sorcerer kits from character creation and allowed a Sorcerer to now declare a bloodline.
- Bloodlines: Added the Amorphous Sorcerer [Ooze Bloodline].
- Added the Spell Select through Dialogue component
- Added the Updated Spell Schools component.
- Added the Armored Casting component.
- Added the Universal Weapon Usability component.
- Added the Oracle component.
- Added the Magus component.
- Added the Arcane Crafting component.

Version 0.2
- Renamed to Tome and Blood
- Significant balance revisions to Mages, Specialists, Sorcerers, Dragon Disciples and Bloodlines.
- Changed specialists to have 2 opposed schools.
- Allowed Gnomes to become Sorcerers and Dragon Disciples.
- Allowed Mages and Sorcerers to use Crossbows and Clubs.

Version 0.1
- First public release (as Sorcerous Bloodlines)
- Added 8 new bloodlines (Eldritch, Celestial, Fiendish, Stormborn, Rimeblooded, Groveborn, Sylvan and Revenant).

Ideas, criticism and comments always appreciated.

Have something you would like to see in this mod? Suggest it in the thread and I'll see what I can do.

Post edited by Aquadrizzt on
booinyoureyesKamigoroshiIllustairTomeBlackravenCrevsDaakPeccaWolklunarelminsterDrow_ArrowSpaceInvaderJuliusBorisovWithgilFredjoGrammarsaladlolienGodKaiserHellKidCarnivalButtercheesePorcelynwolpakSwifty_Mageedady977HudzyCahirUtopolystAedaninethArdulwhileNotZeroMalicron[Deleted User]Sar_Yehudah


  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,033
    @Aquadrizzt since sorcerer is by far my favorite class I'd appreciate more options for it. I always wanted to play a dragon disciple of other color than red. Is it possible for you to made other variants of this class (specifically for blue, green, black and white dragons)? I would love to play a Blood of Morueme character, a blue half-dragon scion of clan Morueme from Nether Mountains. Oh, this would be awesome RP experience:)

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    Cahir said:

    @Aquadrizzt since sorcerer is by far my favorite class I'd appreciate more options for it. I always wanted to play a dragon disciple of other color than red. Is it possible for you to made other variants of this class (specifically for blue, green, black and white dragons)? I would love to play a Blood of Morueme character, a blue half-dragon scion of clan Morueme from Nether Mountains. Oh, this would be awesome RP experience:)

    It might be doable albeit glitchy and very hacky. You could grant a one-time-use ability to declare a draconic heritage, but if it was used after 1st level it could get messy. It might be able to happen through having an NPC/interactive object near each of the spawning points (Candlekeep, Chateau Irenicus, ToB intro zone). I'll definitely see what I can do when I begin coding.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    @Cahir I just had a realization about how to implement multiple draconic heritages in a less hacky way. As innate abilities can vary with caster level, declaring a draconic ancestor could just give you all the draconic abilities up to that point and then let you progress as normal. It would be a lot of coding but much more feasible.

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,033
    @Aquadrizzt ir would be awesome if you would be able to cook something up. I know jack about coding stuff, but could provide some realmslore to class description if you like. It probably depends, if you aim in more generic descriptions or the ones that are more tied to Fearun lore.
    Anyway, I'm thrilled of sheer idea of playing blue dragon disciple of clan Morueme, or black dragon disciple of House Orogoth from High Moor. It will be a great opportunity for more RP oriented evil playthroughs.

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,990

    It might be doable albeit glitchy and very hacky. You could grant a one-time-use ability to declare a draconic heritage, but if it was used after 1st level it could get messy. It might be able to happen through having an NPC/interactive object near each of the spawning points (Candlekeep, Chateau Irenicus, ToB intro zone). I'll definitely see what I can do when I begin coding.

    You might want to look for the creator of the Psionics Unleashed mod if he's still around. His scripts allow for a dialog at the start of gameplay where you have to pick a specialist to progress. That could be a workable way to implement different heritages with some tweaking.

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162

    These sorcerer kits are inspired primarily from Pathfinder's Sorcerer Bloodlines and are designed to add flavor and variance (while maintaining balance) among sorcerers.


  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Looks great so far. Hope this one get finished.

    On that note, hows your NPC class kits mod going? :)

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    Tome said:

    On that note, hows your NPC class kits mod going? :)

    I've posted an update on progress on that thread. For BG1, the arcane casters and divine casters are done. Ideas for the rest have been sketched up but will take a while to implement.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    Question: Does anyone happen to know what the base sorcerer CLAB is? (CLABSO01 is the dragon disciple's) If sorcerers do what I suspect and use the generalist mage CLAB (CLABMA01), then how would I go about changing that?

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,189
  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384

    You will need to do some 2da switching. Sorcs and specialist mages do not have clab files.

    Look at kitlist.2da

    See how line 35 is Dragon Disciple and points to CLABSO01, change it to CLABSO02, extract the CLABSO01 and rename it to CLABSO02.2da. Now your disciple will point to 02 and the base sorcerer will to CLABSO01. Test it out by giving the base sorcerer an ability and see who gets it.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    wolpak said:


    You will need to do some 2da switching. Sorcs and specialist mages do not have clab files.

    Look at kitlist.2da

    See how line 35 is Dragon Disciple and points to CLABSO01, change it to CLABSO02, extract the CLABSO01 and rename it to CLABSO02.2da. Now your disciple will point to 02 and the base sorcerer will to CLABSO01. Test it out by giving the base sorcerer an ability and see who gets it.

    So if I move DD to SO02, the game will automatically update the Sorcerer CLAB to SO01?

  • ghostowlghostowl Member Posts: 171
    If you made the kits more different (they all seem to have the same amount of perks) and really differentiated each kit based on what it was (necromancer: summons army of skeletons, raise dead creatures to fight for you, dragon disciple: shapeshift into dragon)

    it would make it more interesting rather than just different bonuses slapped onto different kits. Just food for thought.

  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,396
    I love this idea! I'm very keen on the Arcane, Celestial, and Revenant Sorcerer kits. :D! I can't wait to see these completed, and nice title for the thread!

  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    I love your idea! There might however be something you could have a problem with. The dragon disciple gaining unarmed attacks is awesome, but others might get an attack bonus on him because he is not a monk. You probably already though of it, but I wanted to make sure. I really love the idea of a sorcerer fighting with his bare fists (claws).
    Just another idea you might like: give the fiendish the cleric's protection from evil, it lasts longer.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,850
    @Aquadrizzt Hrm... I just noticed that this list lacks an Amorphous Sorcerer [Ooze Para-Elemental], or any other slimy sorcerer variant for that matter. I trust this oversight will be dealt with.

  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    It looks awesome ! Just a question, what are the cons of these kits ? Do you plan to add some ?

  • ValmyrValmyr Member Posts: 5
    edited May 2014
    I personally love the Fey Sorcerer Kit <3. Would love to use it on my gnome sorceress~
    I always liked themed spellcasting over the standard universalist approach.

    /just saw elf/half-elf requirement. Heart broken QQ

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    Update Time!

    The first part of this mod, Sorcerous Bloodlines, is now out in beta. Download it from the top post of this thread. It adds a bunch of new kits as well as a couple new weapon and race options for sorcerers.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    Gotural said:

    It looks awesome ! Just a question, what are the cons of these kits ? Do you plan to add some ?


  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896

    Gotural said:

    It looks awesome ! Just a question, what are the cons of these kits ? Do you plan to add some ?

    There are no explicit cons, although the primary (unwritten) drawback is that all sorcerers choose 1 fewer spell per level to account for the Bloodline spell. To clarify, sorcerers used to be able to choose 5 first level spells. Now they only get to choose 4, with the 5th spell being determined based on the bloodline they chose. This means that although their power is higher, their versatility is much lower.

    If people feel that the new sorcerer kits are still too powerful, even with the significant reduction in versatility, I could consider adding some other drawbacks.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    edited August 2014
    Sorry, that was quick and snarky and this work deserves better criticism. So here's my take (you asked for it, no going back if it's long-winded!):

    Balancing kits, to me, mean that the kits should be balanced against the original six classes: trueclass fighter, cleric, druid, thief, bard, mage. Put another way, trueclass kits should have *interesting and useful advantages over your kit* and should be a viable class choice even when your kits are in the game.

    The nature of having some kind of special powers outside the normal powers of the base class, you have to sacrifice something to get it. Swashbucklers sacrifice backstabbing, kensai and shapeshifters sacrifice armor, avengers sacrifice Str and Con... etc. The easiest way to see if a good balance has been struck is to compare what is gained to what is lost.

    Looking at the vanilla game's kits: the Berserker is strictly better than the Trueclass fighter in almost every way. Limited to proficiency in ranged weapons while being on the best thac0 table is fairly meaningless, and Berserk Rage is *hugely* powerful. So, I think that kit is not very good. Wizard specialists: they gain an extra spell to cast per day of every spell level, in exchange for losing access to 1/8 of the total spells out there. Again hugely useful advantage, very slight disadvantage. Fail. (To be clear: in criticizing anything about the power balance of your kits, I am basically saying that they are no worse than some of the professionally-done kits by Bioware and Beamdog. The criticism is, that shouldn't be the end goal; you can do better than them.)

    For a magic-using class, I think you have to compare it to base mages. Sorcerors, as implemented in the BG games, are generally considered to be substantially more powerful than a single-class unkitted mage. Therefore, in making sorceror kits, I think the target should be heavy on the disadvantages and pretty light on the advantages. This is something Beamdog actually got right, IMHO, with the DD.

    These kits add substantially to the advantages of the DD, but do nothing to counterbalance that. -1 casts per day still leaves them with more casts than a mage, AND they are not straightjacketed by what is memorized. So better spellcasting than a mage in 2 different ways, plus some very powerful special abilities, plus those abilities tend to be more powerful than equivalent spells that were given up. (E.g. the Celestial Sorceror has Divine Fire from 1st level: it is Magic Missile combined with Blindness, so the equivalent of two 1st-level spells, and he can cast it 3x/day (!), in exchange for not casting a 1st-level spell 1x/day.) In general, I don't think adding spell-style innate abilities is really needed with sorcerors, since they basically treat all spells as innate abilities.

    I don't really like sorcerors (because I think they're too OP), so I haven't thought much about them. (Not sure if that can be modded.) Maybe slower spellcasting? Add +2 to casting speed in a .spl effect in the CLAB? Actually I like that - sorcerors should probably have slower casting across the board, since they don't have benefit (which right now plays like a straightjacket, but I think should also be a benefit) of searing the magic into their brains through memorization every day. Wild mages should maybe have it too, since they need to wrestle with the magical energy to tame the spell every time they cast it...

    EDIT: wait, I just re-read your post about bloodline spells. (It's a bit hard to discuss this because I can't find a readme anywhere, I had to dig into your .tp2 and .tra files to see what's what.) So are the added abilities innates? Or spells forced upon the kit? The latter would be good. And, are you implementing one less spell to choose, or one less spell to cast (like the vanilla DD), or both? Again, the latter would be good. I think one fewer chosen spell, plus one fewer spell spell to cast of each level, plus a casting speed penalty... might be good?

    Once I finish my mod and do a fresh BG installation I'll use this and test them out, see what I think. And FWIW I won't touch sorceror kits in my mod, to ensure compatibility with this one. Maybe we'll get people to use both! Good luck!

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    edited August 2014
    [ edited to remove some ranty BS ]

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    You raise a bunch of good points and I'm definitely taking them into consideration. You are correct in that I approached these kits from a 3e perspective than a 2e perspective, but that was mostly a byproduct of the fact that sorcerers are an inherently 3+ edition creation.

    One thing I do think you overlooked is that sorcerers gain power from specializing at the expense of not having the versatility of mages (much like specialist mages are supposed to be). This point is, unfortunately, undermined by the god awful vanilla spell system, where there are ~5 worthwhile spells at any given level (ignoring niche situations where scrolls would serve just as well). Thus, a sorcerer doesn't really feel the pain of specializing because there is nothing lost to them. (When was the last time you made a sorcerer that passed on Mirror Image for Know Alignment [hint: never, hopefully...]) This is more indicative of an issue with the viability of different spells rather than an inherent issue of sorcerers within the vanilla game.

    I also disagree with you that Beamdog got the DD correct. Picture an item called "Talisman of the Red Dragon". This item gives you +5 Armor Class, +100% Fire Resistance, +2 Constitution, +20 hit points, a 8d8 Cone-Fireball, -1 spell per level per day. I would run an item like that on every mage I possibly could. It solves all the innate issues of mages with a very small sacrifice. A mage with +20 hit points and +5 AC (and possibly even innate regeneration from the bonus CON) is a mage that can cast spells more often instead of running from fighters and chugging health potions.

    I do agree that slower casting time is a nicely thematic and quite impactful drawback, as is reduced spell knowledge (although I can only do 2 different spells known progressions currently). I actually have used slower casting time as a drawback on some of the sorcerers I did for an in-progress NPC Kits mod.

    The issue with sorcerer drawbacks is that, other than further limiting spell selection and spell casting speed, what else is there to take away from them? They can't wear armor, they can barely use weapons, their d4 hit die is already low and messing with AC or saves would make them even more fragile. It's not like vanilla sorcerers have other special features to take away. Limited spell schools could also work, but then they're just more powerful specialist mages (and, as noted before, is taking away a single school really that impactful when its powergamed?). Ability drawbacks have incredibly variable effects and often have no effect at all (and would typically be better done as penalties to hit/dam, AC, or hit points, as applicable).

    I do agree with your analysis of the activated abilities and I plan on revisiting them to either be drastically reduced in power, added as bonus spells, or removed entirely (and honestly, given the trouble that making and testing spells is, the removed entirely option is quite enticing).

    The result of all of this is that, barring an overhaul of the entire spell system, vanilla sorcerers > vanilla specialists >>> vanilla mages, with the kits in this mod being more powerful than any of those. The ultimate goal should IMO be that all of these things are equal (with a possible additional goal of being balanced within a 2e framework). I am unsure of how to do that while still bringing in more flavor and customization options.

    As an aside, one thing that I often encounter is that the game engine is not particularly well-suited to the needs of arcane magic kits, between a lack of conditional/school bonuses (i.e. +1 to caster level for fire spells) and a lack of the ability to make custom spell lists (which is possible for divine spell casters).

    And now after all this meta-discussion and rambling, let me get back to the point. I do think that mages, specialists and sorcerers should all be mechanically balanced within the group of arcane casters. Bards could also be tossed in this mix, but vanilla bards are so comically unbalanced that I'm not even going to try with those.

    Some changes that could bring everything closer to balance
    - Give sorcerers an innate -1 casting time penalty.
    - Make specialist mages actually block 2 schools (per Complete Wizards Handbook).
    - Balance new abilities with reduced number of spells known or spells per day for all non-"trueclass" Sorcerers.

    Those are just some ideas... What are your thoughts?

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896

    EDIT: wait, I just re-read your post about bloodline spells. (It's a bit hard to discuss this because I can't find a readme anywhere, I had to dig into your .tp2 and .tra files to see what's what.) So are the added abilities innates? Or spells forced upon the kit? The latter would be good. And, are you implementing one less spell to choose, or one less spell to cast (like the vanilla DD), or both? Again, the latter would be good. I think one fewer chosen spell, plus one fewer spell spell to cast of each level, plus a casting speed penalty... might be good?

    Bloodline Spells are specific spells that replace one selected spell at each level. So, for example, trueclass sorcerers in unmodded games pick 2 spells at 1st level. Sorcerers in this mod would only pick a single spell at 1st level, and would be able to cast either that spell or their bloodline spell.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    edited August 2014
    I decided to take a stab and a tentative balancing act for mages and sorcerers, taking your ( @subtledoctor ) suggestions into account.

    - Gains access to a Familiar (per Find Familiar).
    - Improved Lore (5/level)
    - Full casting progression (as Mage)

    - Gains access to a Familiar (per Find Familiar).
    - Full casting progression (as Sorcerer)
    - Bloodline spells
    - Casting speed penalty (-1)

    - Small school-based bonus (i.e. Abjurer gets +1 AC, Conjurer gets Find Familiar)
    - Bonus spell slot per level per day
    - Lose access to two opposed schools (per PnP, i.e. Abjurer loses Alteration and Illusion)

    - Bonus spell slot per level per day
    - Access to exclusive wild magic spells
    - Wild magic casting effects (variable level and wild surges)
    - Casting speed penalty (-1) [maybe? could also make this variable round to round]

    - Several significant, bloodline-themed bonuses (i.e. Dragon Disciple gets Claws and Breath Weapon)
    - Bloodline spells
    - One fewer spell slot per level per day
    - Casting speed penalty (-1) [-2 for the more effect heavy kits]

    Thus the baseline for all balance is trueclass Mage, which has been given a very small boost in power (although this boost could be slightly higher if necessary). Sorcerers get more casts per day, but on a significantly restricted list and with a casting penalty. Specialists lose access to 25% of spells but gain a bonus slot and some small thematic benefits. Wild Mages get a bonus spell, but slower cast time and the effects of wild surge. Bloodline sorcerers get powerful thematic effects but also have both slower casts and fewer spells per day.

    I would toy with number of spells known for sorcerers, but it is mechanically impossible. There is only one file that determines sorcerer spells known per level (SPLSRCKN.2da) and it applies to all sorcerers regardless of kit.

    Post edited by Aquadrizzt on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    edited August 2014
    Wow! Lots in response, and great points all.

    I think it's worth saying saying that when I talk about balance, what I really care about is how things work *in the context of this game* - not in PnP or 2e vs 3e or whatever. So while I totally understand your point about the diminished versatility of a sorcerer, my response is the same as yours: *in the context of this game* it doesn't matter because the limited number of good spells renders it a moot point. So the question is what to do about that.

    Point very much taken about the DD. I never play sorcerers so I'm not very familiar with them. I only remembered that people around here complain about the DD. But you know it better and thinking about the kit bonuses as an item is smart. You also make a good point about wizards and sorcerers in general: they give up so much in exchange for magic (hp, thaco, armor, profs, etc.) that it's hard to come up with anything else to take away

    As to your balancing ideas: I like all of that, a lot. Restricting familiars to mages, sorcerers and conjurers is very interesting... though I don't know how it would sit with players. Unfortunately I don't think you can change the opposition schools of specialists - unless it has been externalized in EE - so maybe just leave them as they are and use them as the baseline to balance around. But all the sorcerer stuff seems pretty good. (Maybe I didn't fully understand it when I snarkily wrote "srsly.")

    Another idea I had: have you seen the improved "Scribe Scrolls" ability, I think either in Spell Revisions or BG2Tweaks? It lets any wizard, from level 10, create a scroll from any spell they know (only in inns, and it costs gold). Maybe instead of Find Familiar, pure mages (only) should get that ability, from level 1. Then they could supplement their spellcasting when needed by casting from scrolls, but at a cost. It would give them even more versatility, which I think works since versatility is their main advantage over other spellcasters. I think this will probably be the solution I use in my mod: check for the presence of the other mod, and make this change. ("Mod the mod," if you will.). If the other mod isn't there... then the player can just play with crappy mages! (Everyone should use those two mods anyway!)

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,465
    edited August 2014
    @subtledoctor‌ that scribe scrolls ability is in atweaks and rogue rebalance (I think--it's definitely in atweaks--a similar brew potion may be in rr).

    Personally, I give mages and sorcerers extra 1st to 4th level spell slots (equal to the number of bonus spells a cleric with a wisdom of 18 gets) to increase survivability and longevity at early levels. I am also probably going to up their HD to d6 (rogues to d8) for the same reason.

    I was also thinking of giving sorcerers an "eldritch blast" like at will ability--think warlock from 3e-- and fluff it like they can tap into and release pure magic energy due to their supernatural connection. The nice thing about this one at least is that it gives kits something to lose (and, I think it's flavorful). The increased casting time could reflect a difficulty with shaping and focusing this raw power.

    I don't know what to do with specialists really (I've been waiting for years for kit revisions to fix them--I think demi was going to give them a lot of extras, but actually reduce their # of spell slots (via spls in the clab) compared to vanilla mages.

    As for bards one suggestion I like from kr is armored casting (and/or less penalties for them when they are wearing armor eg if you use ir increased casting time).

    Edit: inspired by 5e I was thinking of giving casters a very long casing--as long as possible to prevent it from being cast in battle-- "recharge" innate that allowed them to recoup some spell slots. In 5e, casters can do this once per day with a 5 min rest. ( presumably to reduce the "nuke and sleep" strategy. )

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    edited August 2014
    aTweaks! That was it. Incredibly well-done ability (as usual for stuff by aVENGER). I just read that he is very generous with licensing/sharing his mod components to others, so maybe I'll just add his ability directly to my mod, and run a compatibility check.

    Re: recharging spells - that's an idea I've had too. IR adds a "potion of memory" that gives back, I think, 1 spell of levels 1-4. I thought about upping that to 1 of every level, just as a convenience tweak, since they're somewhat rare and somewhat expensive to be using in every encounter.

    I'm also think about a spell, in every spell level: as a 3rd-level spell it would restore 1 1st- and 2nd-level spells; as a 6th-level spell it would restore 1 spell of levels 1-5; etc. GA_ it to pure mages only: then if they memorize in their top spell level, they would effectively be equal to specialists in all lower spell levels but 2 behind instead of 1 behind in the top level. Or they could decline to memorize it, and just be 1 behind in every spell level like normal. Again: more versatility, but not unbalancing because still a substantial disadvantage either way. BUT I'm not sure I like that effect, because the interface isn't built for it. You can't, to my knowledge, control which spell comes back.

    KR... it has a ton if potential if it would stick to its ostensible mandate of simply rebalancing the Bioware kits. Because Demivrgs is one of the best out there. But as I read more about it, it seems to be metasticizing - changing proficiencies, stats, thac0, traps... what do these have to do with kits again? (To be fair, some of this feeling might just stem from the difficulty in sorting through a dozen forum threads on a smartphone.) Hopefully it will be well-compartmentalized, else it will break compatibility with other mods. And even then, the basic revisions may not mix well with mod kits.

    Anyway, I feel like we're sort of thread jacking here, as none of this is much related to sorcerer kits. (Unless it's helpful to AquaDrizzt, who may be still working on the "Tome" half of this mod...)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 896
    I do recall having seen it, and as Grammarsalad pointed out its part of aTweaks. Definitely something I will consider.

    I'm reluctant to mess around too much with spell slots beyond the specialist +1; bloodline -1. Although it could make low level mages much more viable.

    But then it would conflict with a possible, totally-not-in-the-works-at-all Warlock. ;P

    I believe Demi was going to give the bonus spell slot per level to generalists, but give specialists a LOT more abilities to compensate. In regards to Tome and Blood, most of how I go about balancing specialists will depend on the viability to blocking more than one school. If it's not viable or too much trouble, I will likely remove the bonus spell slot but find some other features (such as innate spell uses of their school's spells).

    Although I don't think it really makes sense within the lines of Mages and Sorcerers (or Specialists or Bloodlines), I definitely will considering using it for other classes such as Magus, Warmage and Warlock.

    So this is entirely doable with Wondrous Recall abilities, to a certain extent. If you cast a version that recharged 1 spell at each level 1-4 but hadn't expended a 4th level spell, then you would get 2 recharged 3rd level spells. Blocking availability in combat is trivial (the Pocket Plane innate has a "can't use in combat" effect). You are correct @subtledoctor‌ that the actual spells regained aren't really controllable (although it has been shown that Wondrous Recall recharges in the order of the spell book, so if you expend the spell in the 1st memorization slot you get that one back).

    I'm not sure how I feel about this. In theory if you cast it once you would get SOME tradeoff, but what if you have a level that doesn't have particularly compelling or currently relevant spells? Wondrous Recall trades 1 6th level slot for 2 5th (or lower) slots but competes with some very useful spells. There are certain levels of wizard spells where I'm sure people would be willing to trade ALL of their spell slots at that level for +1 spell cast at lower levels per slot expended. There is also hte issue that this would be incredibly gimmicky, especially when you think about how you would have to expend spells regularly before casting this one. It seems like a lot of trouble and I'm not sure if the reward would be balanced and satisfactory to mage players.

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