Should HLA ftom TOB be in Spellcasters level 7 & 9 spellbooks!?

Tymaker

Should epic class level spells be in a spell page one level higher or listed as a special ability/spell?

Tymaker

Maybe I should have made the vote not puplic?

FinneousPJ

I don't understand the question. They are already in maximum level spell pages.

Gallowglass

@FinneousPJ - maybe @Tymaker wants the devs to add a new higher-level spell page, just for HLA spells? But I agree that it's not entirely clear.

Anyway, if that's what this question means, then I don't think it'd be allowed under WotC licencing. SFAIK, it's the lore of the land that levels 7/9 are the highest levels which can exist.

Furthermore, even if it were permissible to invent a higher-than-maximum (?!) spell level, that'd then allow HLA spells to be memorised in addition to all the "ordinary" maximum-level spells, instead of competing for the same slots. That'd end up waaaay over-powered!

Tymaker

A Sorcer has a MAJOR advantage over a Magic Users already because he doesn't have to memorize them, and can cast HLA like he is using a machine gun and not a pistol.

What I'm saying is those spells are epic spells, at a level one higher, and those spells are not even in true D&D, so why are they in with them?

I think they could be more properbly placed in with special abilities just like all other HLA. And, even so, why not MAKE a new spell page? HLA spells overshadow all the old ones anyway.

semiticgoddess

For me, the main problem is that you have some really amazing HLA spells occupying the same spell slots as SoA-original spells. It means the other level 7 priest and level 9 mage spells see precious little use.

And @Tymaker is right about sorcerers. Sorcerers are supposed to be limited to a handful of spells per spell level, but at epic levels, they suddenly have a lot more of the best of everything.

Tymaker

@Gallowglass I don't see how a 1 per day Comet ability would be more overpowering then being able to cast it 4 or 6 in level 9 slots.

Gallowglass

Ah, so you're talking about putting them on the special ability tab, not about creating a higher-than-maximum spell page. Well it wasn't sufficiently clear from your original post which you meant, hence the confusion.

I'd agree that a once-per-day Comet as a special ability, instead of having it in the spellbook at all, would not in itself be over-powered.

However, you still have the result that if the HLA spells became special abilities, then the level 7/9 spell slots would be freed up for more of the "ordinary" maximum-level spells, which currently (unless you're a Sorcerer) you have to forego in order to memorise the HLA spells. Thus you'd end up with quite a lot more spells per day overall (1 extra per HLA!), even though some of the best ones (i.e. the HLA ones) wouldn't be usable quite so frequently. That'd change the late-game balance somewhat.

With several extra spells-per-day available, I guess that'd tend on the whole to make casters (even!) stronger than they already are, although it'd require some adaptation of casting-style to take maximum advantage.

Arunsun

I'd say no because:
It makes sorcerer even more overwhelming
For Mages, it will just make you not memorize any 'normal' level 9 spell since HLA are more powerful

semiticgoddess

SCS has an option to make priest and mage HLAs into once-per-day innate abilities. You can pick Summon Planetar at level 18 and can cast it once without cutting into your normal spell slots. But you cast it from the spell menu, so you still can't cast it while shapeshifted. Also, your clones can't cast it, which means Project Image and Improved Alacrity for massive damage bombing is no longer possible.

Tymaker

@Gallowglass my original question said in two different ways, to me, is perfectly clear, for the answer to that question only leaves two options.

For instance, the jest of it, do you think Raistlin Majere in the Dragonlance novels wrote his epic spells he challenged a God with in his level 9 spell book?

And, as for lvl 9 spells go, Time Stop is the only important one. Banshee Wail is easy to save against at the highlevel.... Mind you, most NPC casters don't even have 18 int to cast level 9 but can still use HLA!?

Tymaker

Alot of the time we see spells apear in the special ability icon, those TOB spells should be there at very llimited use - furthermore making it fair for all spellcasters, not giving the sorcer such a clear advantage.

The other fix would be a D&D impossible at making a higher level spell page.

In my opinion the answer is quite obviously no. But because we naturally like to say YES more I should have worded it different.

Tymaker

Maybe I should have made the question?

Should TOB Special Spells be placed in with Special Abilities and not in level 7&9 caster spell books? (People like to say yes more)

I actually liked the idea of making a higher, more godly, spell page.

elminster

To be honest the divine quest spells are weaker than the Planetars or Improve Alacrity. So I think as far as a polling option it would have been reasonable to include an option like "level 9 spells for arcane casters should become special abilities, quest spells for priests remain level 7 spells" or some variation on that.

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semiticgoddess

@elminster: People play clerics? Instead of mages? Surely you jest.

elminster

semiticgod said:

@elminster: People play clerics? Instead of mages? Surely you jest.

Pretty sure people take Viconia or Anomen in their party, even if they don't play a cleric themselves

Ohmega

elminster said:

To be honest the divine quest spells are weaker than the Planetars or Improve Alacrity. So I think as far as a polling option it would have been reasonable to include an option like "level 9 spells for arcane casters should become special abilities, quest spells for priests remain level 7 spells" or some variation on that.

Don't you mean Mage HLAs remain as Level 9 Spells and Priest HLAs become Special Abilities? So that Mage HLAs are taking up spell slots and Divine HLAs are not? Or do you mean something else?

Also, like Mages aren't strong enough in BG2. Give me a break. I have to ban myself from specifically using some of their spells or the game just becomes an absolute joke walk over. I have to ban myself from using other things as well but the Mage ones are easily the worst offenders.

Edit:* For the record (and transparency), I see spells being a Special Ability as a buff, it's just giving them extra high level spells. I like the idea for Clerics who could use some extra offensive spell power but not for Mages or Druids.

elminster

Ohmega said:

elminster said:

To be honest the divine quest spells are weaker than the Planetars or Improve Alacrity. So I think as far as a polling option it would have been reasonable to include an option like "level 9 spells for arcane casters should become special abilities, quest spells for priests remain level 7 spells" or some variation on that.

Don't you mean Mage HLAs remain as Level 9 Spells and Priest HLAs become Special Abilities? So that Mage HLAs are taking up spell slots and Divine HLAs are not? Or do you mean something else?

Also, like Mages aren't strong enough in BG2. Give me a break. I have to ban myself from specifically using some of their spells or the game just becomes an absolute joke walk over. I have to ban myself from using other things as well but the Mage ones are easily the worst offenders.

My point was largely that the poll was insufficient in terms of its options (as in there are more possibilities than the polls options would suggest). That being said making mage HLA's into special abilities would allow the option of restricting you from choosing it to only once (so for instance you could only use Improved Alacrity once each day). So it could actually reduce their impact on the game (though to be honest some of these spells are already so powerful that I doubt it would make much difference either way).

Personally, I would have rather seen Improved Alacrity significantly reduce casting time (say by 4) rather than allow you to cast multiple spells per round. Base it off of the Alacrity spell found in Tome of Magic (but an improved version that is more balanced for the game).

Likewise I would have rather seen Time Stop vary in duration between 1 and 3 rounds, which is how it works in pnp. This would have given plays a lot less certainly about its use (and made it I think a more tactically interesting spell)

That being said (since you appear to be relatively new to the forum) I'll further clarify that this is my personal opinion, and that I'm not in the position to make these changes (nor would I really advocate them at this stage as formal changes given that BG2EE has been out for over two years).

Arunsun

semiticgod said:

@elminster: People play clerics? Instead of mages? Surely you jest.

Even if one does not want to play mage, Avenger is strictly better than cleric offensive-wise, at least if you do not dual your cleric.

Ohmega

@Elminster Thanks, I was just confused/curious as to how you thought that making spells a Speical Ability was more of a nerf than a buff - I still see it as a buff, seems like you're just giving them an extra high level spell really but I get what you mean.

Lord_Tansheron

Tried the HLA-as-innate mod option, never went back. Much better solution imo, and in line with all other HLAs.

Tymaker

@elminster then you make a new poll, enlighten me on how to better describe such a topic/question.

Beamdog doesnt touch these core areas of the game anyway - they just add some characters, improve game mechanics, and format for devices.

Tymaker

@Lord_Tansheron - Wait, there is a HLA-as-innate mode option!?!!

Lord_Tansheron

Tymaker said:

@Lord_Tansheron - Wait, there is a HLA-as-innate mode option!?!!

The SCS mod adds this as one of its options. That way, HLA spells don't take up space in your spellbook, but also can only be used once a day each.

The same mod also offers an option to add these HLAs to various enemy spellcasters, which makes for some crazy battles. Ever been on the receiving end of a Dragon's Breath while still in SoA? FUN!

Pantalion

It might be worthwhile to note that high level mages and clerics in PnP AD&D do get additional spell slots by the same high-level play rules that give Bards up to level 8 spells.

Mages get level 10 spell slots: 1 at level 20-22, 2 from 23-25, 3 from 26-28, and 4 at 29+.

Clerics get 1-4 "Quest" spell slots: 1 at 20-21, 2 from 22-24, 3 from 25-26, and 4 at 27+. And Quest spells, being literal acts of god, are immune to being dispelled except by other Quest spells (including ignoring epic level mage dispels).

So generally their HLAs should probably have their own slots, but non-sorcerers should use a "Prepare HLA spells" ability to allow the spellcaster to choose how many of each spell to prepare each day out of a single shared resource pool.

Tymaker

@Pantalion Thanks! That's the answer I was pretty much looking for - we never made it that high in p&p 20 years ago.

semiticgoddess

@Tymaker: It's probably for the best not to reach mage levels higher than 23. The last time somebody in Faerun cast a level 12 spell, it caused the fall of Netheril.

sarevok57

maybe its more of a hardcoding thing, and that's the reason why they are what they are now, coincidently I don't even use the HLA cleric/mage spells, not even remotely necessary ( at least if you are playing an unmodded game) for level seven spells, I usually choose shield of the archons, since greater restoration doesn't affect the whole team anymore now that spell is just poop, infact I don't even use level 7 cleric spells, maybe If they "cleric aggressive" script would actually cast offensive spells, then I might give it a try, but that script seems to be pretty lame, the only offensive spells that I have seen that script cast is command and bolt of glory, finger of death? nope, have to do it manually myself and F that noise, if I took the time to choose finger of death and select an enemy, that would eventually just start being a pain in the butt

and then level 10 mage spells, they're all mediocre at best, even improved alacrity isn't even necessary because wish, can give you a double duration time stop/ improved alacrity, and if your a sorcerer getting that one, then you just lol all over the enemy, in my recent canon playthough the only level 9 spells that aerie, imoen, and nalia had memorized was absolute immunity and chain contingency and they were curb stomping on baddies

in all honesty I think ToB was kinda slapped together and not much effort went into making it ( just look at some of the lame thief/bard abilities like create potion, magic flute and scribe scroll - seriously, what a joke-) and because of time restraints that's basically what we were dealt with, maybe this is the reason why many people don't enjoy ToB as much as SoA, because it seems that there was much less effort in ToB than SoA

for high level abilities the only ones I even find useful are hardiness and greater whirlwind, the rest is pretty much fodder in my mind ( but then again, I play unmodded games, so maybe those other abilities might be useful in modded games)

lunar

If you make those spells hlas, selectable once, than all high level mages are EXACTLY the same. They will have one casting of dragon breath, then comet and a planetar.

By making them high level spells, a mage can customise his spellbook for his exact needs. Get all dragon breaths if need be for a blaster mage. Get all planetars if you want to be a summoner, etc
The downside is you share high level slots with hlas, so you really don't get to cast many 9th lvl spells except time stop or chain contingency, etc. However I like the customisation. SCS makes all high level enemies randomly assigned, and one enemy is dangerous with sudden comets, while another lich loves to gate dark planetars, etc. It adds variety and challenge. It is not 'oh he will cast dragon breath, and then comet now. Time for fire res potions! Yawn.'

Ohmega

sarevok57 said:

... I don't even use the HLA cleric/mage spells, not even remotely necessary ( at least if you are playing an unmodded game) for level seven spells, I usually choose shield of the archons, since greater restoration doesn't affect the whole team anymore

Use Mass Raise Dead HLA in place of the old Greater Restoration, it restores 3D10+1 hP/caster-level to all members of your party (regardless of whether they were raised or not) with a spell casting time of 2. Doesn't get rid of the status effects like Greater Restoration used to but if you're looking for a large aoe (near) instant battle heal, this is your best option.

There are many, many strong HLAs but you're using scripts instead of pausing to set your battle commands, so, I'm not sure what would be useful script-wise.