Psionics System Design
Aquadrizzt
Member Posts: 1,065
(Before I start, yes I know Kwait_W made a Psionics Unleashed mod several years ago. Having looked at it, I think that Kwiat and I had different goals in mind with how a psionics system should function and feel.)
I am working on a points based Psionics system and I want some feedback on its actual design. I explicitly don't want to replicate how psionics is handled in 3.5 or Pathfinder, because I find it too powerful and because I don't think it sufficiently emphasizes the difference between psionics and magic.
Design
So far I have come up with the following fundamental design points:
Point 2 addresses that psionic abilities are not subject to the same issues that magic has. Psionic abilities can be used when silenced, can function normally in dead and wild magic zones, ignore spell resistance, and cannot be dispelled using Dispel Magic. Psionic abilities that require a save would use save vs. wands. Psionic abilities can be used while wearing armor.
Point 3 addresses that psionics should be rare, and feel intentionally weird. Psionic powers are not just arcane spells renamed or prefixed with the word "Psionic"; they are completely different abilities with strange and powerful effects. Furthermore, psionic abilities should feel thematic; constructs, vermin, mindless undead, plants, and oozes can't be phased by being shown glimpses of their future (although they can be damaged if you use telekinesis to throw a large rock at them.)
Implementation
Lots of rambling about design ideals aside, I am unsure of how specifically I want to implement psionic powers. I have a points system that is working perfectly, as well as an otherwise unused kit flag that I can use to prevent psionic characters from using spells or items that would interfere improperly with their abilities.
There are a couple of different options for several steps of the implementation, and I'd like to get some feedback on which would be thematically acceptable while not being a PITA for users. For the purpose of this discussion, a "power" is a single ability (the equivalent of a spell), while a "discipline" is a group of powers (the thematic equivalent of a school, although most disciplines would only contain 3 to 5 powers).
Some of the decision points include:
1) Usability: Should powers only be usable once the psionicist has reached a specific level, or should a psionicist be able to use any power they know as long as they possess the enough points to pay for it?
2) Acquiring New Powers: Should powers be learned invidually (from a big list) or in groups (e.g. you pick a discipline and learn all of the powers associated with that discipline)?
3) Availability: Should you be able to use any power you know (like a Sorcerer), or should you select a subset of your known powers to use (like a Mage)?
Speaking personally, I think that, ideally, powers would be learned in groups, but you should be able to use any power that you know without having to choose specific ones. I think that not having a level requirement to use certain powers would also help subvert how magic is typically presented, but runs the risk of becoming overpowered if I am not careful with power design.
I'd also like to have Psions be able to dual and multiclass, so I'm eyeing either Mage (if using the spellbook interface) or Fighter (if using the innate menu) as the base class.
Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on what I've brought up?
I am working on a points based Psionics system and I want some feedback on its actual design. I explicitly don't want to replicate how psionics is handled in 3.5 or Pathfinder, because I find it too powerful and because I don't think it sufficiently emphasizes the difference between psionics and magic.
Design
So far I have come up with the following fundamental design points:
- Psionic abilities utilizes a point-based casting system.
- Psionics is fundamentally different than magic.
- Psionics abilities feel unique and thematic.
Point 2 addresses that psionic abilities are not subject to the same issues that magic has. Psionic abilities can be used when silenced, can function normally in dead and wild magic zones, ignore spell resistance, and cannot be dispelled using Dispel Magic. Psionic abilities that require a save would use save vs. wands. Psionic abilities can be used while wearing armor.
Point 3 addresses that psionics should be rare, and feel intentionally weird. Psionic powers are not just arcane spells renamed or prefixed with the word "Psionic"; they are completely different abilities with strange and powerful effects. Furthermore, psionic abilities should feel thematic; constructs, vermin, mindless undead, plants, and oozes can't be phased by being shown glimpses of their future (although they can be damaged if you use telekinesis to throw a large rock at them.)
Implementation
Lots of rambling about design ideals aside, I am unsure of how specifically I want to implement psionic powers. I have a points system that is working perfectly, as well as an otherwise unused kit flag that I can use to prevent psionic characters from using spells or items that would interfere improperly with their abilities.
There are a couple of different options for several steps of the implementation, and I'd like to get some feedback on which would be thematically acceptable while not being a PITA for users. For the purpose of this discussion, a "power" is a single ability (the equivalent of a spell), while a "discipline" is a group of powers (the thematic equivalent of a school, although most disciplines would only contain 3 to 5 powers).
Some of the decision points include:
1) Usability: Should powers only be usable once the psionicist has reached a specific level, or should a psionicist be able to use any power they know as long as they possess the enough points to pay for it?
2) Acquiring New Powers: Should powers be learned invidually (from a big list) or in groups (e.g. you pick a discipline and learn all of the powers associated with that discipline)?
3) Availability: Should you be able to use any power you know (like a Sorcerer), or should you select a subset of your known powers to use (like a Mage)?
Speaking personally, I think that, ideally, powers would be learned in groups, but you should be able to use any power that you know without having to choose specific ones. I think that not having a level requirement to use certain powers would also help subvert how magic is typically presented, but runs the risk of becoming overpowered if I am not careful with power design.
I'd also like to have Psions be able to dual and multiclass, so I'm eyeing either Mage (if using the spellbook interface) or Fighter (if using the innate menu) as the base class.
Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions on what I've brought up?
3
Comments
If you want for psionics to have only one kit (like they did in AD&D), then I'd personally recommend bringing the 'Psionicist' under the Monk class. The advantage would be mostly thematically, as a Monk's ki is the closest we have in the game to psionic powers. It even seems like 4e officially classified the Monk as a psionic class. Not really important information, I know, but still kind of interesting. Downside of course would be the inability to multiclass/dualclass. Then again, you could houserule that magic (outer power of the Weave) and psionic talents (inner energy of ones' self) cancel each other out... making it impossible for players to access both sources of power. Or something.
You could however also add serveral psionic kits under the various classes. Like having Psychic Warriors under Fighters, Wilders under Sorcerers, Psions under Mages, Soulknife under Bard and Lurks under Thieves. That way you could even have a psionic Cleric of Auppenser. But this way of doing would kind of dilude your psionic=/magic goal. So it is also not without downsides.
@Kamigoroshi, I'm actually thinking of using the system I figured out for Psionics to make a full Ki system for monks in Monastic Orders as well. I'm on the fence whether I want to implement Psychic Warrior and Lurk as independent classes or just have them be Fighter / Psion and Psion / Rogue, respectively, with a few bonuses features added to their non-Psion class.
As long as psionics and magic feel clearly separated, I don't mind too much which base classes the psionic kits would use. I'd love to have crossover classes once I get the Psion and its powers set up.
Throw it under the Thief or Bard, so you can skip the problem of tweaking their Hit-Dice and Thac0 progression. The only problem would be the saving throw table, but the Psionic is different from any other class in AD&D, being more similar to the Rogue anyway:
Hope it helps
@subtledoctor , lots of good points as usual. I thought about (1) briefly but I came to the same realization that you did (e.g. the powers will randomly shuffle around through use), and I decided it was non-viable. (2) actually presents spells in level order, which might help give classes without a mage spellbook psionics. (3) could work but I think I want my psionics system to be more flexible than that unfortunately.
I'll likely wind up making pure Psionicists (Psions, Wilders) use the Mage class. Also, I might steal some of your psionic abilities for use in this mod (or at least rehash them); Fission is too cool to not have in some capacity.
Okay one limitation I have run into thus far is that, regardless of where Psionics are placed, they will be considered spells for the purposes of Spell Protections (e.g. Spell Deflection or Spell Turning). Changing those spells to not protect against psionics would require changes to the way these spells are implemented, which might cause incompatibilities. *sighs*EDIT: Or... not? Sweet.
Why do you guys stick to the idea of a cross-class psionic when it is treated as a pure class in AD&D?
To me sounds like "you know what? Let's give Backstab to all classes". Just don't make sense.
I mean, why should use one when I can get a Fighter with psionic powers, a rogue with psionic powers, etc, without actually being a Psionic?
@subtledoctor I'm not talking about forbid Psionics to Dual or Multiclass, but giving psionic-powers to non-psionics. With a multiclass we have a slower progression and Aquadrizzt's argument fits, but I'm talking about other situation.
Anyway guys, it's just a question that leaded to an opinion. I'm not trying to legislate for this mod.
Borrow Time
Chronokinesis
Psi Cost: 5
You pull your future self into your current timeframe for several rounds.
For 18 seconds, your present and future selves can both act independently. After these 18 seconds have expired, future you disappears (because they have returned to their own timeframe) and present you disappears for 18 seconds (because you were pulled into past you's present for 3 rounds).
(NOTE: Do not use this power if you have no other party members. Doing so will cause the game to end.)
There are a couple ways I can approach this:
1) This is fine; spamming powers at the speed of the game clock will burn them out super fast and is only sustainable for a few rounds at most.
2) Using an ability that lends itself to spamming should disable it for a couple seconds.
3) Using a psionic ability should increase casting time for all psionic abilities for some period of time.
How do people feel about this? Thematically, any of these is an acceptable solution.
It looks like you have some great ideas for this mod and I can't wait to see what you decide to implement. I'm not entirely sure about points 1 and 2, but I think in terms of availability a psionicists ability to manifest their power seems (to me) to be an innate ability or something that they just know. So I would lean more towards a Sorcerer style of casting available powers. This is really interesting. Is it possible to add to the casting time of a spell if it's cast consecutively? So using a psionic ability increases the casting time for the same ability (or abilities of the same level?). That would give players the choice to decide whether spamming a particular power over and over would be better than using different powers between the one they're spamming.
I hope it all comes together regardless of what you implement. Sounds awesome!
Possible fourth choice incoming:
What if the Psionicist could manifest powers nonstop, but may run into danger of making mistakes? This may be in form of powers not manifesting correctly, backlashes, exhaustion, or loss of concentration while in close quarter combat, ect. Kind of a psionic variant of the Wild Surge... with less colourful happenings. This may result in players unconciously surpressing their trigger happiness. Just food for thoughts.
Edit: and their really top tier powers, like borrow time, should always 'take something out of them'
For abilities that can output damage, obviously something needs prevent instantly dealing 100s of dice of damage. But for more conditional/thematic abilities, I think having no inherent drawback (beyond the psi cost) is necessary.