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MegaMod 2.45: Mazzy Romance, Clara NPC, Darkside Anomen, Flying Aerie, For The Evil, & more!

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Comments

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,593
    would not be the first time a mod made imoen bi. heck with all the party member romances imoen has being bi may as well be canon.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    megamike15 wrote: »
    would not be the first time a mod made imoen bi. heck with all the party member romances imoen has being bi may as well be canon.

    My problem here is that :

    1. There is no characterization to indicate this at any previous point. It literally comes out of nowhere.
    2. It retcons BG1's characterization HARD by having apparently slept with every halfling short of Montaron. This is nowhere indicated or hinted in all of BG1.
    3. It intrudes on the player's romance with Mazzy, turing you into literally just a person on the side. This one is especially egregious since it never happened in any of my previous runs with earlier versions of this mod. It completely changes everything about your relationship with Mazzy.


    When it comes to npc expansion mods, I've always very firmly held that characterization should be consistent with what's shown in the game's canon. All of the new dialogue should be an expanison on established character, a deeper look at something that was there before, but kinda shallow. Not made up out of nowhere. There's a big difference between exploring Imoen's reactions to having her soul ripped out and learning that she is descended from murder incarnate, and her suddenly having a halfling fetish. One is in character and gives us a deeper understanding, the other one smacks of "lol random".


    I get that the sexuality of non-romanceable characters is basically non-existant. And that when making a romance mod, you want as many people to be able to enjoy it as possible. Heck I've romanced Imoen with both male and female characters, Mazzy with male, and my current run was going to be a female romance run. But learning that charname would be forced to be a side hustle, when Mazzy outright stated that she would be upset if charname courted other people while with her, left a bad taste in my mouth that might have killed my run.

    While I don't think of Imoen as a hypersexual personality, that's an interpretation on my part. I have no problems with Imoen being sexually active, I'd be insane to have issue with that, I don't like the retcon it does to the character, how it seems to have no foundation in the character's behavious prior to the talk its brought up in the mod, or how it recontextualizes the player's relationship with Mazzy.

    megamike15
  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 133
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    megamike15 wrote: »
    would not be the first time a mod made imoen bi. heck with all the party member romances imoen has being bi may as well be canon.

    My problem here is that :

    1. There is no characterization to indicate this at any previous point. It literally comes out of nowhere.
    2. It retcons BG1's characterization HARD by having apparently slept with every halfling short of Montaron. This is nowhere indicated or hinted in all of BG1.
    3. It intrudes on the player's romance with Mazzy, turing you into literally just a person on the side. This one is especially egregious since it never happened in any of my previous runs with earlier versions of this mod. It completely changes everything about your relationship with Mazzy.


    When it comes to npc expansion mods, I've always very firmly held that characterization should be consistent with what's shown in the game's canon. All of the new dialogue should be an expanison on established character, a deeper look at something that was there before, but kinda shallow. Not made up out of nowhere. There's a big difference between exploring Imoen's reactions to having her soul ripped out and learning that she is descended from murder incarnate, and her suddenly having a halfling fetish. One is in character and gives us a deeper understanding, the other one smacks of "lol random".


    I get that the sexuality of non-romanceable characters is basically non-existant. And that when making a romance mod, you want as many people to be able to enjoy it as possible. Heck I've romanced Imoen with both male and female characters, Mazzy with male, and my current run was going to be a female romance run. But learning that charname would be forced to be a side hustle, when Mazzy outright stated that she would be upset if charname courted other people while with her, left a bad taste in my mouth that might have killed my run.

    While I don't think of Imoen as a hypersexual personality, that's an interpretation on my part. I have no problems with Imoen being sexually active, I'd be insane to have issue with that, I don't like the retcon it does to the character, how it seems to have no foundation in the character's behavious prior to the talk its brought up in the mod, or how it recontextualizes the player's relationship with Mazzy.

    Do you have the Imoen romance installed? It turns Imoen into bi.

    Well, Imoen's sexuality is unknown since the subject was never deeply touched. She may be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual...anything.

    Granted, it certainly would be nice if the threesome between the player character, Mazzy and Imoen was optional. Are you sure you did not push for it somehow?

    As for Imeon sleeping around in BG1 nothing indicates that she did so...but nothing indicates that she stayed chaste at that time either. The subject was simply never touched.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @Mothor Yes actually, my previous comment mentioned I've romanced Imoen playing both male and female. Its an inherent caveat of making a romance available to every player. But here's the thing. When it comes to the player character, a lof mod npcs seem to have schrodinger's sexuality. They happen to be into whatever charname is.

    The thing is, Imoen's sexuality feels more natural with Aerie, because the relationship develops. With this mod, Imoen was suddenly asking to jump Mazzy and reminiscing about how hawt all her sex was with all those halfings that she totally banged back in BG1. Where IR took the time to build a relationship, this mod apparently felt fine retconning characterization in BG1, and having Imoen just automatically wanting to jump every halfling she meets. Except Montaron.

    My biggest issue though isn't the Imoen thing. Its clunky and does not remotely come across as natural, but its not conceptually "wrong". What really gets me is Mazzy insisting to my charname in a previous run that they do not double deal. Mazzy wants to be the one and only, and if charname wants to pursue someone else, to tell her so the relationship can be broken off. But in this run, for some reason, Mazzy says that charname will just have to learnt to share. What the actual f**k? That kind of double standard is not remotely in character for Mazzy and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. There's also the fact that not everyone wants to be someone's person on the side, and being forced to do so is not fun.

  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Mothor Yes actually, my previous comment mentioned I've romanced Imoen playing both male and female. Its an inherent caveat of making a romance available to every player. But here's the thing. When it comes to the player character, a lof mod npcs seem to have schrodinger's sexuality. They happen to be into whatever charname is.

    The thing is, Imoen's sexuality feels more natural with Aerie, because the relationship develops. With this mod, Imoen was suddenly asking to jump Mazzy and reminiscing about how hawt all her sex was with all those halfings that she totally banged back in BG1. Where IR took the time to build a relationship, this mod apparently felt fine retconning characterization in BG1, and having Imoen just automatically wanting to jump every halfling she meets. Except Montaron.

    My biggest issue though isn't the Imoen thing. Its clunky and does not remotely come across as natural, but its not conceptually "wrong". What really gets me is Mazzy insisting to my charname in a previous run that they do not double deal. Mazzy wants to be the one and only, and if charname wants to pursue someone else, to tell her so the relationship can be broken off. But in this run, for some reason, Mazzy says that charname will just have to learnt to share. What the actual f**k? That kind of double standard is not remotely in character for Mazzy and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. There's also the fact that not everyone wants to be someone's person on the side, and being forced to do so is not fun.

    Oh interesting I never knew Imoen romanced Aerie. I had played the Imoen romance, but I tend to never get Aerie in my party because she gets on my nerves.

    Question on the timing. Was Imoen with Mazzy first or were you with Mazzy first?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    edited August 2020
    I've had Mazzy in the party for the whole game (went to Umar Hills asap). Got Imoen in Spellhold and she and Mazzy were talking about it by the Sahuagin city.

    Note that this is the exact same set up I ran when Mazzy's romance was first "finished". Haven't seen these talks before this run. Running version 2.0

    *previous run was the release just before 2.0*

  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    I've had Mazzy in the party for the whole game (went to Umar Hills asap). Got Imoen in Spellhold and she and Mazzy were talking about it by the Sahuagin city.

    Note that this is the exact same set up I ran when Mazzy's romance was first "finished". Haven't seen these talks before this run. Running version 2.0

    Interesting. Might as well install the newest version. It won't hurt anything to update it. If anything there will be fewer bugs. That's funny, if you had Imoen and Mazzy in your group when you were a guy the same talks should've played. Unless when you first played through chapter globals were broken due to that EET thing, which is then fixed in your current version.
    So if I'm remembering the timing correctly: Imoen and Mazzy are somewhat together already. You want to be with Mazzy but aren't yet. Imoen and Mazzy are both fine with that as long as Mazzy doesn't dump Imoen for you. But you want Mazzy to not be with Imoen and for you to have her all to yourself. Is that right?

    In D&D lore (or what we could find on halflings; there's not a lot), halflings tend to take same-sex relationships not particularly seriously; they come and go frequently and are for fun. They then are supposed to marry and have kids and settle down with someone of the opposite sex (which is similar to some of the ancient Greek cultures, but whatever). Mazzy's weird in that she hasn't married and settled down.

    So Mazzy's not against sharing, she's against betrayal. Anything's fine as long as all the relevant people agree beforehand.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    edited August 2020
    It must have been EET global thing then.

    That's a real shame, because it completely ruins the romance for me. I'm not interested in a being "the other person".

    "So Mazzy's not against sharing, she's against betrayal. Anything's fine as long as all the relevant people agree beforehand."

    Based on how the line is written, I'm gonna have to disagree with this. She didn't say to ask her before seeing someone else, she said to tell her so that she could break off the relationship if you want to see someone else. So its very much a double standard if SHE can double time but you can't.*edit* She also pre-emptively says that charname will have to learn to share. So if by "all the relevant people agree" you mean, "Mazzy agrees" then sure.

    "In D&D lore (or what we could find on halflings; there's not a lot), halflings tend to take same-sex relationships not particularly seriously; they come and go frequently and are for fun. They then are supposed to marry and have kids and settle down with someone of the opposite sex (which is similar to some of the ancient Greek cultures, but whatever). Mazzy's weird in that she hasn't married and settled down."

    This is literally the first I've heard of it. Are sure you didn't end up checking a splatbook or something?

    I'm also curious where you ended up pulling the halfling orgy from or Imoen and ALora's relationship. Is there some required mod for BG1 I'm not aware of? Because that comes out of nowhere.


    One final question: If one was to install Imoen Romance with this, how would that work out? Imoen can romance Aerie if charname doesn't, but the Mazzy thing happens automatically. And the Imoen Romance doesn't actually start until after the Underdark. I can see this leading to some weird and contradictory banters.

    megamike15
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,593
    the aerie/ imoen romance starts in tob.

    and i agree this is gonna cause a conflict in the long run as both imoen's and mazzy's cn romance is not supposed to start till chapter 6.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @megamike15 "the aerie/ imoen romance starts in tob."
    Ah, that's right. its been awhile.

  • MothorMothor Member Posts: 133
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Mothor Yes actually, my previous comment mentioned I've romanced Imoen playing both male and female. Its an inherent caveat of making a romance available to every player. But here's the thing. When it comes to the player character, a lof mod npcs seem to have schrodinger's sexuality. They happen to be into whatever charname is.

    The thing is, Imoen's sexuality feels more natural with Aerie, because the relationship develops. With this mod, Imoen was suddenly asking to jump Mazzy and reminiscing about how hawt all her sex was with all those halfings that she totally banged back in BG1. Where IR took the time to build a relationship, this mod apparently felt fine retconning characterization in BG1, and having Imoen just automatically wanting to jump every halfling she meets. Except Montaron.

    My biggest issue though isn't the Imoen thing. Its clunky and does not remotely come across as natural, but its not conceptually "wrong". What really gets me is Mazzy insisting to my charname in a previous run that they do not double deal. Mazzy wants to be the one and only, and if charname wants to pursue someone else, to tell her so the relationship can be broken off. But in this run, for some reason, Mazzy says that charname will just have to learnt to share. What the actual f**k? That kind of double standard is not remotely in character for Mazzy and leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. There's also the fact that not everyone wants to be someone's person on the side, and being forced to do so is not fun.

    Did you romance both Mazzy and Imoen on that run or were you just romancing Mazzy and Imoen just happened to fall fast for Mazzy?

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @Mothor I only do 1 romance at a time. Imoen and Mazzy was kicking off before it's even possible to romance Mazzy. Imoen will start romancing her a week-ish after rescuing her. You can't romance Mazzy until post-underdark.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,593
    yeah that is gonna seriously cause issues with ir. not just with cn/imoen but also imoen and aerie later.

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    It must have been EET global thing then.
    That's a real shame, because it completely ruins the romance for me. I'm not interested in a being "the other person".
    You're assuming that Imoen is the main person. What if you're the main person and Imoen is the "other person"? Or what if you're all just people and there is no other person?

    Well, you could boot Imoen and take Mazzy for yourself. Or you could type in SetGlobal("_bImoenMazzyRomance","GLOBAL",3). That'd end it.
    "So Mazzy's not against sharing, she's against betrayal. Anything's fine as long as all the relevant people agree beforehand."

    Based on how the line is written, I'm gonna have to disagree with this. She didn't say to ask her before seeing someone else, she said to tell her so that she could break off the relationship if you want to see someone else. So its very much a double standard if SHE can double time but you can't.*edit* She also pre-emptively says that charname will have to learn to share. So if by "all the relevant people agree" you mean, "Mazzy agrees" then sure.

    Oh it's definitely a double standard. She's pre-emptively saying to Imoen that if Charname wants her then CN will have to learn to share, yet she's very picky about who she'll share Charname with. Of course all of D&D is a double standard, like when you go to a Xvart village and murder them all and you're a hero. Everyone's working from their own perspective.
    "In D&D lore (or what we could find on halflings; there's not a lot), halflings tend to take same-sex relationships not particularly seriously; they come and go frequently and are for fun. They then are supposed to marry and have kids and settle down with someone of the opposite sex (which is similar to some of the ancient Greek cultures, but whatever). Mazzy's weird in that she hasn't married and settled down."

    This is literally the first I've heard of it. Are sure you didn't end up checking a splatbook or something?

    Dungeons and Dragons Wiki. There were others around too but they all said the same thing (probably because they all just copy and paste from each other).
    https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Race_Cultures-_Romance_&_Sexuality_(3.5e_Other)
    I'm also curious where you ended up pulling the halfling orgy from or Imoen and ALora's relationship. Is there some required mod for BG1 I'm not aware of? Because that comes out of nowhere.
    Completely made up. There's no sex at all in BG1(lots of violence, but zero sex). Before EE the only kissing in BG1 is fatal. But if you were a hero in a culture where sex is a normal activity, with no ability to get pregnant, no negative reputation ramifications, and no STD's that couldn't be cured, odds are you're going to be having as much sex as you'd want.
    One final question: If one was to install Imoen Romance with this, how would that work out? Imoen can romance Aerie if charname doesn't, but the Mazzy thing happens automatically. And the Imoen Romance doesn't actually start until after the Underdark. I can see this leading to some weird and contradictory banters.

    If you're romancing Imoen then you get different dialogues.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    Ok, slow down - which mod does what? I have never had Imoen romance Aerie, and I invariably have both of them in my BG2 runs.

  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    megamike15 wrote: »
    yeah that is gonna seriously cause issues with ir. not just with cn/imoen but also imoen and aerie later.

    CN-Imoen is accounted for, more or less.

    I'll have to look up Imoen and Aerie.

  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Ok, slow down - which mod does what? I have never had Imoen romance Aerie, and I invariably have both of them in my BG2 runs.

    The Imoen Romance mod apparently has Imoen romance Aerie in ToB. I haven't seen it, but then I rarely have Aerie.

    Edit- Ok I broke open the Imoen Romance and read it. Interesting.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Ignoring conflict with other mods, I think changing the timing of the Imoen/Mazzy romance would fix my biggest issue with it. Of course, if I'm the only person bothered by it, its a moot point :p .

    Move the Imoen Mazzy romance talks to post Underdark, like charname's. Have the talk where Mazzy asks charname their intentions first. If charname doesn't initiate, then have the Imoen/Mazzy romance start. Add an option in one of the talks Mazzy initiates (where you play cards :P ), to ask for another chance at a relationship. Have a talk where Mazzy and Imoen discuss their relationship and whether to let charname in or not, and a separate talk where Mazzy and/or Imoen tell you what the relationship would mean. Then everyone ACTUALLLY gets the talk and agreement on what kind of relationship it should be. Rather than forcing charname to be a side hustle.

    Of course, if I'm the only one uncomfortable with the way it is now, that's a lot of effort for no real reason.

  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    Ignoring conflict with other mods, I think changing the timing of the Imoen/Mazzy romance would fix my biggest issue with it. Of course, if I'm the only person bothered by it, its a moot point :p .

    Move the Imoen Mazzy romance talks to post Underdark, like charname's. Have the talk where Mazzy asks charname their intentions first. If charname doesn't initiate, then have the Imoen/Mazzy romance start. Add an option in one of the talks Mazzy initiates (where you play cards :P ), to ask for another chance at a relationship. Have a talk where Mazzy and Imoen discuss their relationship and whether to let charname in or not, and a separate talk where Mazzy and/or Imoen tell you what the relationship would mean. Then everyone ACTUALLLY gets the talk and agreement on what kind of relationship it should be. Rather than forcing charname to be a side hustle.

    Of course, if I'm the only one uncomfortable with the way it is now, that's a lot of effort for no real reason.

    Let's go with a way to change it that involves less code editing. There's a ridiculous number of moving parts so I'd like to move as few as possible. The more things I move the more likely I am to break something (and it's all tested already...)

    I could probably put in a real simple way to turn the Imoen-Mazzy romance off. Either in the install or with a conversation. Let me break it open and look at it. I haven't read it since play-testing it.

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    @ThacoBell

    In the mean time just press Ctrl+Space to open up the command bar, and then type in C:SetGlobal("_bImoenMazzyRomance","GLOBAL",3)

    That should completely turn it off.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    What?! Something simple?! Never!

    In all seriousness though, I was trying to find a way to do so without removing the talks you guys worked so hard on.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    Could you go the other direction and optionally disable the PC romance while leaving the Imoen/Mazzy romance?

    I'm running I4E, and I'm not hyper thrilled about that concept of a Imoen/MC romance anyway, but having a mod where Imoen can romance another party member would be a nice perk. It would make it a bit more similar to the Minyae Beaurin/Edwin romance.

    Because not every party drama should be centered around the protagonist.

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    What?! Something simple?! Never!

    In all seriousness though, I was trying to find a way to do so without removing the talks you guys worked so hard on.

    Heh. Well that'll just remove the Imoen-Mazzy romance talks which you wanted to not have anyways since you want to romance Mazzy alone. It won't (shouldn't) affect anything else.

    I've got an idea already. I should be able to put in a talk before the first Imoen-Mazzy talk between Imoen and CN where she asks you about Mazzy and you.

    And @Ratatoskr Don't kill me, I'm not adding anything for you to code in a finished project. I'll code it :smiley: .

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Could you go the other direction and optionally disable the PC romance while leaving the Imoen/Mazzy romance?

    I'm running I4E, and I'm not hyper thrilled about that concept of a Imoen/MC romance anyway, but having a mod where Imoen can romance another party member would be a nice perk. It would make it a bit more similar to the Minyae Beaurin/Edwin romance.

    Because not every party drama should be centered around the protagonist.

    Oh that's already in there. Just choose not to romance Mazzy and she'll still romance Imoen. All the Mazzy Romance and Friendship stuff includes an option to end it in the talks.

    So you can be friends with Mazzy but say no to the relationship. Or you can be mean to her (or just tell her to stop talking to you) in the friendship and then you won't even see those.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    @Maurvir "Because not every party drama should be centered around the protagonist."

    I agree, I just prefer Mazzy/charname in this instance. Though, funnily enough, Imoen has far more romances than any other npc.

    If you feel like trying others out, the Aerie/Imoen romance in "Imoen Romance" is pretty interesting. It starts as an absolutely ADORABLE friendship. I haven't taken to the complete end to see (one of) the epilogues for it, but there's some interesting developlments to it.

    Imoen can also romance Kelsey (if its EE compatible) and Sarah.

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    Argh, it just occurred to me that this was probably already implemented. Now I'm looking forward to BG2 and my current party is still in chapter 2 of BG1!

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    ThacoBell wrote: »

    Of course, if I'm the only one uncomfortable with the way it is now, that's a lot of effort for no real reason.

    A lot of effort for no real reason is pretty the name of the game here. It's not like you're all paying us :smiley: .

    ThacoBell
  • BCaesarBCaesar Member Posts: 318
    edited August 2020
    Maurvir wrote: »
    Argh, it just occurred to me that this was probably already implemented. Now I'm looking forward to BG2 and my current party is still in chapter 2 of BG1!

    Better get playing. The city of Baldur's Gate isn't going to rescue itself. :smile:

  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    edited August 2020
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Maurvir "Because not every party drama should be centered around the protagonist."

    I agree, I just prefer Mazzy/charname in this instance. Though, funnily enough, Imoen has far more romances than any other npc.

    If you feel like trying others out, the Aerie/Imoen romance in "Imoen Romance" is pretty interesting. It starts as an absolutely ADORABLE friendship. I haven't taken to the complete end to see (one of) the epilogues for it, but there's some interesting developlments to it.

    Imoen can also romance Kelsey (if its EE compatible) and Sarah.

    I'm pretty sure Jastey has indicated that I4E and IR are mutually exclusive since the latter mod assumes she is taken to SH early. Otherwise, I would love to see that romance develop in a game.

    I actually have Sarah installed, but I haven't yet taken her into a party due to her being a ranger. No offense to rangers, but I never seem to find a place for them.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    BCaesar wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    What?! Something simple?! Never!

    In all seriousness though, I was trying to find a way to do so without removing the talks you guys worked so hard on.

    Heh. Well that'll just remove the Imoen-Mazzy romance talks which you wanted to not have anyways since you want to romance Mazzy alone. It won't (shouldn't) affect anything else.

    I've got an idea already. I should be able to put in a talk before the first Imoen-Mazzy talk between Imoen and CN where she asks you about Mazzy and you.

    And @Ratatoskr Don't kill me, I'm not adding anything for you to code in a finished project. I'll code it :smiley: .

    Sorry @Ratatoskr ! D:

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