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Spider's Bane location wrong

IMO the placement of Spider's Bane sword is inappropriate. It is placed after the heavily infested spider area in Cloakwood. That sword should be before this area. This area is a difficulty spike due to one of the most powerful trap in the game - Web.

It was terrible experience to watch how a single phase spider killed 3 of my party npcs. A trap triggered and immobilized 3 characters. The other 3 escaped. But then the phase spider attacked the trapped ones and I couldn't dare push the other 3 npcs to help them. I knew if they enter the Web to help, they will die too so I had to watch from a safe distance how this nasty spider killed all 3 npcs slowly and agonizing. Finally the spider still hungry came to attack the remaining npcs and of course got slaughtered. I took their remains and went back to the temple to ressurect them. It was pain to order my npcs to leave those in need of help and just leave them to their doom.

Why this trapped trigger ? I sent Coran to scout that area, why didn't he spot the trap with 65 Detect Trap ? He detects some traps there and completely misses other traps. Sometimes he arbitrarily turns off detect mode when he enters stealth mode. Something is wrong with his AI behaviour.

Comments

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    edited May 22
    If I sent the remaining party to help it would be certain death, kamikaze operation. I could have sent 2 out of 3 to help but I reasoned that the only difference would be to carry back to temple 5 coffins instead of 3.

    I disagree why Web nullifies AC. Hold too. Grants free hits bypassing armor. Very punishing Web, at least keep armor modifiers. This armor is still worn no matter if they are immobilized. Armor is a shield, worn on the body, has nothing to do with mobility. You still have to penetrate that armor. Maybe DEX modifier is reasonable to bypass due to immobility but not armor modifiers.

    Take a tank vehicle for example. You may immobilize the tank by breaking its chains, but this tank still has thick armor and moreover the tank can still fire back.

  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,517
    Imo the placement of the sword fits the quest to recover the body of the brother who went off to fight spiders - where else would it be but in the spider nest?

    Balrog99JuliusBorisovStummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    dunbar wrote: »
    Imo the placement of the sword fits the quest to recover the body of the brother who went off to fight spiders - where else would it be but in the spider nest?

    No wonder that guy is dead. He never had a chance to fight the spiders without this weapon

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 797
    edited May 22
    This is one of the few areas in BG1 where you have to use strategy rather than simply plowing ahead. 65 in find traps is too low to reliably and quickly see all the traps in the area. You also typically want to have only your thief scouting that area with everyone else armed with missile weapons in case she inadvertently triggers a trap. It is also totally ok in this area to equip some of the special arrows you will have accumulated to this point but probably rarely used. Good luck!

    Post edited by jsaving on
    ThacoBell
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    It is contradictory the spider's nest to be in possession of this weapon. They can obtain it by defeating the warrior who wields that weapon. But they are weak to this weapon and therefore cannot possibly obtain it.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    jsaving wrote: »
    This is one of the few areas in BG1 where you have to use strategy rather than simply plowing ahead. 65 in find traps is too low to reliably and quickly see all the traps in the area. You also typically want to have only your thief scouting that area with everyone else armed with missile weapons in case she inadvertently triggers a trap. It is also totally ok in this area to equip some of the special arrows you will have accumulated to this point but probably rarely used. Good luck!

    So if 65 in Traps for Coran is too low, then how about the cleric Detect Traps spell ? Does this spell always finds all traps ? Clerics don't have innate stealth but easily fixable by Sanctuary and Invisibility.

  • theonlypeejtheonlypeej Member Posts: 44
    Almost 20 years ago i spent 4 full nights trying to go thru those areas.... it was fun!!!

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,558
    edited May 22
    Soido wrote: »
    It is contradictory the spider's nest to be in possession of this weapon. They can obtain it by defeating the warrior who wields that weapon. But they are weak to this weapon and therefore cannot possibly obtain it.

    What? Why? Its a sword. They can drag it by the handle if need be. Its not like its some kind of spider specific cold iron that burns to the touch. It doesn't even do extra damage to spiders, only makes their webs useless.

    It makes PERFECT sense for someone killed by the spiders to be taken back to their nest for feeding. The sword came along because it was in his possession when he died/Centeol recognized its potential threat and kept it in the safest place available.


    Oh, and yes, the spell "find traps" will find the traps. But it can't disarm them, you still need a thief for that.

    Grond0Aerakar
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 611
    The "find traps" skill isn't a percentage chance. It's an on/off switch based on the "difficulty" of the trap. A thief with 50 or more points in Find/Remove Traps will always find those web traps if in range, and always succeed on disarming them.
    Any less than 50 - say, if you only put one level worth of improvement into Coran's skill - and you're not finding those traps at all.

    The problem is that the chance in question is only checked once per round, and the detection area can be pretty small. It's very easy to move just a little too quickly, and blunder into undetected traps even when you're looking for them. The Find Traps spell doesn't help with this; it's just another once-per-round detection for its duration.

    Grond0SoidoThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,085
    edited May 23
    One way to get round the issue that you need to be patient to detect all traps even if your thief has high skill in that is to turn them invisible before they start detecting. That avoids the problem that enemies would otherwise react to a thief checking for traps. If you suspect that web traps might be in the area (for instance because you've encountered one very close to the entrance to the area) the argument for doing that becomes much stronger.

    Some of your NPCs getting stuck in webs need also not be a death sentence. Spiders don't have particularly high HPs and using up consumables like acid arrows or wand charges can kill them quickly.

    As for the placement of Spider's Bane, it was deliberately put as a solution after, not before, you encountered the problem. By modern standards I agree that looks strange, but Baldur's Gate is not a modern game and it assumed that players would die repeatedly while learning the game. Personally I prefer that older design standard, though I understand it's not to everyone's taste.

    AerakardunbarSoidoStummvonBordwehr
  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    Overall I am convinced that my approach to that specific Cloakwood area was flawed.

    The correct way is to cast Invisibility on Coran and slowly, without rushing, reveal all traps.

    Instead I relied on Coran's stealth ability which is risky approach of getting him detected by the spiders or the nethercaps and this causes him to rush the area too much and thus missing some traps.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,253
    I usually cast invisibilty on someone and have her drink a potion of free action, then walk around the map triggering all the web traps. The traps last 1 minute each so I it should take about 5 minutes for all of them to vanish.

  • SoidoSoido Member Posts: 110
    Bring also plenty of poison antidote potions. Buy them all, don't be frugal. The nethercap poison and the wyvern poisons are extremely toxic aggresive fast ticking poisons, you cannot outheal them.

  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 611
    The "Slow Poison" spell, which any priest can memorize as a level 2 spell and any good-reputation protagonist should have an instance of innately, is also very good, curing any of those poisons. Especially if you've got a druid - what else are you using those second-level slots for?

    I'd recommend using the spell for anything short of wyvern or phase spider poison; those two deal damage so fast that spending the time to walk over to the poisoned character and cast a speed-1 spell is really too much.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,530
    jmerry wrote: »
    The "Slow Poison" spell, which any priest can memorize as a level 2 spell and any good-reputation protagonist should have an instance of innately, is also very good, curing any of those poisons. Especially if you've got a druid - what else are you using those second-level slots for?

    I'd recommend using the spell for anything short of wyvern or phase spider poison; those two deal damage so fast that spending the time to walk over to the poisoned character and cast a speed-1 spell is really too much.

    The problem with Slow Poison is that if the caster is the one who gets poisoned, the poison will often tick and interrupt the spell before it casts. Even though it takes only 2 segments to cast, the timing is dependent on when in the round the poisoning occurred versus whether the caster has already taken an action that round. Any other hit that happens in the round sequence before the caster gets to take an action can also interrupt the spell.

    I find the antidote potions to be much more reliable and safe in a minimal or no reload run, because they cannot be interrupted, and they can be consumed in the same round as another action.

    DJKajuruThacoBell
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 611
    The problem with Slow Poison is that if the caster is the one who gets poisoned, the poison will often tick and interrupt the spell before it casts.
    That's why you have two or three different characters with Slow Poison memorized. Of course you shouldn't have the poison victim cast it on themself. Note that I mentioned walking over to the victim in the time cost.
    Even though it takes only 2 segments to cast, the timing is dependent on when in the round the poisoning occurred versus whether the caster has already taken an action that round. Any other hit that happens in the round sequence before the caster gets to take an action can also interrupt the spell.
    Interruption is only an issue if it happens between when you order the spell and when you cast it. As long as you're not ordering this spell on a clouded aura, it's very hard to interrupt.

    And again, I recommend antidotes for the strongest poisons, where every second counts. Slow Poison is there to take the resource burden off from all of the lesser poisonings.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • DhariusDharius Member Posts: 398
    edited May 23
    Sorry but I disagree with the original point...the sword is fine where it is in Centeol’s possession. Free action isn’t exclusively useful for fighting spiders, after all.

    Similarly the golden sword of Balduran and Werebane would have been more useful if we found them before all those wolfweres prowling around, but we didn’t, and that’s just the way it is I’m afraid.

    The Cloakwood spider level takes time to learn, but once you know how to do it, using the tricks described above (especially a stealthy thief with high Detect Traps, Antidotes, Invisibility potions and Poison Protection scrolls, in my opinion, oh and reload of course) it becomes straightforward.

    ThacoBell
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