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Balance Dexterity

2

Comments

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    edited May 2013
    Drizzt isn't very strong for example, he's just a perfectionist and always hit the fatal spots in a fight, many times in the novel that he try to fight a brute style he always get himself fucked up very hard.

  • CrawleyCrawley Member Posts: 74
    IMHO though dexterity aspect hasn't been thought out well in DD, I also think that heavy armour does not give proper protection.

    Please look at this video and check how many swings actually hit:

    Inb4 someone says their swords are not sharp, look at this:

    Heavy armour gives really good protection. I've heard there were examples where a good armour was actually impenetrable, so peasants who managed to throw a knight off his horse were not able to actually stab any part of his body with a dagger.

    I mean, there are techniques that involve precision. Actually you had to be very precise to kill an opponent in heavy armour, but in order to use that precision, you would have to be sure you can ignore blows that reach you. When you pay attention to "acrobat fighting" (as it was mentioned), you are actually welcomed to a) get a blow from behind b) lose the precision part. Also you might just end up getting exhausted before the chap in full plate.

    TL:DR heavy armour will always be superior to light armour. Dexterity might give you some compensation from this, but it will never be that good. WH had a good method of dealing with it, as each armor gave you dmg reduction: eg dmg below 4 was soaked by the armour.

    Now this is DD and IMHO we should either stick with the rules or change the system altogether. Bending rules is OK, but I feel that too much would need to be changed if we would start modyfing armory system.

  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    Was it in 2nd edition or 3rd where Dexterity reaction modifier actually improved your ability to dual wield? If anything, that should be implemented. As far as the original post, I find this whole AC balancing 'bug' to be a bit overreaching. If anyone here ever been in a real fight, then you would know that even the slightest movement or repositioning can alter the outcome of being hit or how hard you are hit. Something that isn't unimaginable in heavy armor. Plus I consider the AC bonus from Dexterity to represent reflexive action such as parry as well as actively dodging. Each turn takes a certain amount of time and I don't imagine your character is standing their waiting for their turn. Simply to say that their inexperience only allows them to manage one good attempt at a hit in that course of a turn while fending off the opponent's attack. If you really want the other armors to have more relevant then play the actual classes that use said armor or ask for spell failure %. I find it absurd that bard can wear chain mail when they can learn mage spells. With the exception of elven chain (which you never encounter in BG 1), why even give bard an armor type other than cloth to begin with? Not to mention they get Use Any Item HLA anyways.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    @Crawley in real life aspect that protection is based on the weapon fought against also, if you use a mace, a war hammer or any crushing damage weapon, it will be more efficient, you can even smash the iron/steel of the armor to the point of crush the enemy deadly.

    Forgotten Realms is a world of magic where weapons can be stronger than normal, not an fantasy fair, where people with at maximum a minimum training and skill fight with swords blunt.

  • CrawleyCrawley Member Posts: 74
    @kamuizin: sure, but we have to give ourselves a comparison and I believe non-magical weapon vs non-magical armour is fair :).
    As for weapon types: yeah, that's why plate mail has degraded defense against crushing weapons. Though honestly, if you'll get bludgeoned in a stomach, not much will help you.

    What I mean is: to me it feels like the whole fighting mechanics of D&D (including HP, thac0) are strongly connected between each other. I also think that so-called acrobatic fighting is much exaggerated - I always wait for someone to say that a quick guy in light armour is better protected than a guy in plate mail. No, he isn't. For the same reason a quick samurai will never stand a chance against a guy in a plate mail.

    Obviously we are forgetting about something: plate mails were made for jousting and as such were not much used on a battle field. They were heavy, but did not limit movement to such an extent as some might think I also like playing guys in light-armour, but it is so movie or novel-like. It's bloody fantasy. Yet at the very same time I have an image of Gondor troops from LoTR movies - mass produced guys in full plates made of paper that could be pierced by a butter knife. That would not happen unfortunately.

    TBH I am always divided: I really like game-like theatrics etc, but I also tend to strive for a lot of realism in sword-fighting. To me dexterity over armour is more of these theatrics than real-life.

    TL;DR: IMHO armour system in ADD should not be touched because it would bring too many implications. I also think that some people have exaggerated view of acrobatics against plate armour. I do believe that the system is broken in general, but in order to fix it we would have to switch to a different rule set.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043
    edited May 2013
    kamuizin said:

    The dexterity bonus to AC shoudn't stack with armor. Now that BG EE differ from where each bonus/penality comes from for Thac0/AC/Damage, maybe the core rules of D&D could be respected, by limiting the dexterity bonus value based on the armor a character uses.

    That is good idea but do you have solution ?

    We CAN´T change whole game system, so if you want implement something like this, you must come with some easy and smart changes in dexterity system. All discussion are pointless if nobody figure out new system.

    Post edited by Edvin on
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    Well, so i have to pay and work on the game? Ok, challenge accepted :)! As i said many times in this forum i'm no coder but lemme try anyway, who knows? Just don't expect any technical solution, i'm going to provide some amateur logic.

    BG EE has now a system where in the inventory screen the dexterity bonus is detached, evidently there's a direct link in strings between the dexterity value and the AC bonus from Dexterity value.

    The armor kinds in the game could carry a string value when used that would add a penality to dexterity bonus to AC, example:

    leather armor 0, studded leather armor 1, chain mail armor 2, splint mail armor 3, plate mail armor 4, full plate mail armor 5

    This penalities could also be applied to Thac0 too for plate mail and full plate mail (optional and not the focus of this thread), this has no base on PnP that i know, but could give a balance to Thac0xAC. @CamDawg made some changes on some full plate mails on BG2 fixpack that i put here as an example, just correct me if i'm wrong:

    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showtopic=3172

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043
    edited May 2013
    Interesting...
    And what if i have very low dexterity ( let's say 3 ) ?
    My basic AC is 13 and i wear full plate mail armor ( that is 13 - 9 = 4 ).
    So my AC is 9 now ? ( With that penality )

    ( chain mail armor, splint mail armor and plate mail armor have equal bonuses now, all have +3 AC )

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    Figure out dude, a string like ~IF AC >0; THEN AC 0 (just an example) is possible to be done.

    As i said, the intent is to reduce dexterity bonus to AC, never told about add penalities, neither does the PnP.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,950
    Dude you're over thinking it. You don't have to figure out how to implant it; it's super-simple to add something like a DEX penalty to certain armors. 3 or 4 mods already do it, and you can do it yourself with Near Infinity if you have a spare 30-40 minutes. If you do it the latter way, it shouldn't even be affected by a game update, as long as game updates don't overwrite your Override folder.

    This is something mods handle very well; so if you want to play the game that way, just play with a mod.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    If mod the game was easy enough or if BG EE had gave us an friendly interface to mod, i would not complain so much, but not only neither of that happen, this request main request is based on rules and everything requested is throw asside to be moded, i would rather see this as official, but then, the chances are thin apparently.

    Well the suggestion is made, let's see what happen from now on.

  • Dantos4Dantos4 Member Posts: 57
    edited May 2013
    Personally, I don't see the need in such a change. BG was originally designed around the 2ed ruleset with minor implementation changes. If you want to play 3ed, surely you could make a mod for that.

    And in terms of the armour, a +5 piece of cloth is still that: a piece of cloth. It probably still wouldn't provide as much physical stopping power as full plate armour. The same applies to chainmail+1 / fullplate.

    One is inherently better than the other. A small enhancement may take it to the same level, sure. But one is inherently better. Personally, I found great uses for splint mail on my low level bard. Your mileage may vary.

    The reverse, imo, can also be applied to armour and DEX. A person who is naturally godly at dodging (DEX) will probably be roughly your natural skill level when he is in platemail. It makes sense.

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,373
    There are actually a couple of mods that try to tackle armor a bit more sensibly, from adding damage reductions to movement penalties, to all sorts of stuff. Tweaks has two components to allow thieving and spellcasting, at penalties, in heavy armor; Item Revisions does this and a whole lot more; Full Plate and Packing Steel is focused entirely on armor; and Refinements I think also has some armor treatments.

    Eudaemonium
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Dantos4 said:

    Personally, I found great uses for splint mail on my low level bard. Your mileage may vary.

    Bards can't wear splint mail in this game.
    Dantos4 said:

    The reverse, imo, can also be applied to armour and DEX. A person who is naturally godly at dodging (DEX) will probably be roughly your natural skill level when he is in platemail. It makes sense.

    I can't figure out what you're trying to say here.

    Someone good at dodging has the same AC as someone in plate armor?

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656


    - Finesse Fighter vs Heavy Warrior, my favourite Game of Thrones Scene.

    @Nifft - I think the idea is that a guy who wears Full Plate should not be able to keep his Dexterity added AC. Why can a Knight Wearing Full Plate dodge just as well as a guy without? It makes no sense. As @Crawley clearly showed in the videos he put up... those guys in full plate couldn't dodge anything. They just sit there bashing each other across the head. Now they gained their armor AC protection, but if someone can show me the dexterity benefits there.... please enlighten me.

    kamuizinKilivitz
  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    You keep using the word 'dodge' as the only measurement of dexterity. It's reflexes, coordination and so much more. Stop thinking of terms of acrobatics and excessive movements as the show case of high dexterity. As I said before, the ability to react and deflect an attack is an equal example of avoiding hits as it is to physically moving out of the way.

    Edvin
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043
    @Draith012
    True, dexterity can be also measure how fast you can react, not only how quick you are.
    In this case doesn´t matter what armor you wear.

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    edited May 2013
    @Draith012 @Edvin - Have you ever worn full plate? I have a few times. Let me tell you, your ability to react, move and deflect an attack is very much restricted to what you can do without. The armor is heavy and you tire quicker. Your brain knows what it wants to do, but your body can't follow instructions. I consider myself quite built and even I struggled wearing it.

    Chain mail was still restrictive but not as much so. It was more 'heavy' than anything.

    Leather was a piece of cake. I could react, move and perform delicate swordplay.

    There seems to be this notion I don't know what i'm talking about, but I assure you that it is a big part of my actual occupation.

    kamuizin
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 1,953
    My opinion on this subject is, that I don't find current system broken, so it doesn't need fixing.

    To prove this point, I should point out a factor noone seemed to have pointed out so far (excuse me if I missed it), and that is STRENGTH FACTOR. An example from "reality": I used to be into the larping thing and used to go on those actions where we played LOTR battles. We used wooden weapons. I had a friend, huge muscular guy, who had a chain armor, which was very cool, as most of us had only costumes and he got more "lifes" from organizators as to reflect damage reduction. Anyway, I tried to wear it once and could barely move in it, but he could wear it and fight in it just as fine as I could in my costume, and as he was also better swordsman, he could beat me most of times. This is not very thorough example, but just to point out, that the strength matters.
    A guy with 12 strength should be able to wear full plate mail, but would not be able to use it effectively in combat. On the other hand, a guy wielding Crom Faeyr would wear a full plate as clothes.

    And this mechanics already is in the game, it's minimum strength requirement. In this line of logic it doesn't only represents the ability to wear it, but to wear it effectively in combat, which also means with full dexterous potential of the character. Restriction then may represent some kind of common sense of the character not to use equipment, that he's not strong enough to use. So in game a guy with 15 strength and 18 dexterity is strong enough to wear full plate with potential to fully utilize his dexterity.

    Still, it is valid to question the current mechanics. And it's because the system of minimum strength requirement is somehow suspensed by the design choice to allow min-maxing. If this wasn't allowed, then there would be much more use for chain and splint mail as a lot of characters would not be strong enough to wear full plate. Instead most fighters in the game have 16+ strength and 15 is even considered as "weak". But even if I find it flawed, I don't find it broken. Certainly not broken enough to make such a huge change to the core game. Therefore I would not support this feature request and point out to modding section.

    As to entertain thoughts for such a mod, then armors should have NO AC bonus, as it represents the ability to avoid being hit, and only damage reduction. All the AC should consists of should be the ability to avoid and deflect attacks - dexterity, shield and weapon potential to parry.

    Lastly, absolute NO to the idea of implementing 3e rules "just because" there are 3e kits implemented. It's because 3e kits do not change the 2e flavor of the game, on the other hand 3e rules and features definitely would. And for me a huge part of charm of infinity engine games comes from its 2e. I liked 3e in NWN but disliked it much in IWD2.

    Neonfisk
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    edited May 2013
    @EntropyXII nice video, a very good display of a recent serie that show the difference between heavy and light fight style.

    Dexterity isn't only the dodge ability @Draith012, but the bonus it give to AC based on dexterity IS, you get bonus to ranged weapons, initiative and thief skills, characters should also get bonus to hit and damage with light weapons, speed factor and saving throws in my opinion.

    @Pecca, the huge difference bettwen splint mail and plate mail for example, is the plates covering arms and legs, no matter if you have 12 or 25 strenght, when a piece of metal block a direction of your movment, laws of physics conspire to give both the same treatment, unless the 25 str bend the plates when he move (therefore damaging or destroying the armor) he will be too restricted as the character with 12 str.

    Even in splint mail, a guy with 25 str lose opportunities, you can't roll, bend or lower proper enough to fight in the same style a character without splind mail would for example in reason of the same movment restrictions i mentioned above, but in splint mail issue, you can't bend your torso to make such moves.

    That's the reason the AC restriction bonus table is progressive. This isn't a question of a person to decide if the system is broken or not, 3.5E already define this line of thought.

    BG is 2E but have a LOT of elements from 3.5E and in my view the apply of dexterity balance could very well help the mechanics of the game, all due respect to whomever think otherwise.

    EntropyXII
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    kamuizin said:

    BG is 2E but have a LOT of elements from 3.5E [...]

    Such as?

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    @TJ_Hooker do you make this question out of mockery or you just doesn't know the differences between 2E and 3.5E? No offense meant from my side, just want to know before answer.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043

    Have you ever worn full plate? I have a few times. Let me tell you, your ability to react, move and deflect an attack is very much restricted to what you can do without. The armor is heavy and you tire quicker. Your brain knows what it wants to do, but your body can't follow instructions. I consider myself quite built and even I struggled wearing it.

    All depend on armor type ( and also material type ). Some full plate are made like walking stronghold and another sacrifice extra protection for better mobility. BTW in BG are also things like full plate armor made from mithril.

  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043
    It was horrible game, but i really like how look grey warder full plate armor from Dragon Age 2.
    image
    Good protection and high mobility.

  • EntropyXIIEntropyXII Member Posts: 656
    @Edvin - Seriously bro, have you ever worn Plate Mail? It is extremely heavy. There is a severe lack of mobility in ANY Plate Mail. Some were more mobile than others true but it is a very heavy piece of equipment. At around 50 lbs (22 kg) I can guarantee you, you will be restricted. Try swinging a sword a couple of times with solid, tempered steel strapped to your forearms and shoulders - you'll see what I mean.

    Not only this but warriors will often wear a chain mail shirt underneath the plate to help cushion piercing blows. This adds another 10-12 kg to weight. Think you can still move smoothly at 32 kilograms of metal strapped to your body?

    Dragon Age 2 is simply not a good example. Incredibly unrealistic game. Dragon Age: Origins however had what they call: "Fatigue Penalty" for wearing heavier armour, meaning you tired much quicker. If I remember correctly, they removed that from DA2 in order to satisfy those gamer's who think it is possible to do backflips whilst wearing full plate and swinging a great-sword around like a helicopter blade.

    ...Each to their own I guess.

    kamuizin
  • EdvinEdvin Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,043

    Dragon Age 2 is simply not a good example. Incredibly unrealistic game.

    Yes i know, that game was disaster but i admire design this specific armor.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    DA2 make warriors swing 2 handed swords like daggers, it was hilarious.

    Just remember that thiefs teleported on that game, that by itself make reality and DA2 forever enemies. They tried to copy Diablo III engine based on the teaser trailers of that game probally (at that time many promo videos of Diablo III making where being released on their main site), a very sad result.

    Still, when i want just to hack n'slash something, i play the game a bit, the history isn't the worst thing i had put my hands on (besides the imbecile romances).

    EntropyXII
  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    For those that played DA2 remember that the story is being told by a highly colorful-story telling dwarf. Yes, everything in the game action-wise was highly unrealistic but isn't that the flavor he would have spun it?

    Isn't it improper to say that 2E takes from 3.5 when 2E is the predecessor of 3.5? Shouldn't it be 3.5 takes from 2E. Besides, didn't 3.5 have a slew of AC modifiers like: natural/armor, dodge, shield and deflection? (the last one was probably named something else but can't remember it at the moment). I can't even stack rings with magical armor in 2E. In context of AC, 2E and 3.5 have very contrasting rule sets.

    As far as heavy armor, the point about effective minimal strength requirement should sound some bells for you. Even at 15 strength a character can carry 120 lbs of gear without it affecting his/her speed or combat effectiveness. If that's true than the 50 lbs of plate armor wouldn't bare much difference. And though you want to argue about the range of motions, can't it be argued still that the slightest of motions can still cause a blade to glance off the armor instead of breaking through. Much like parrying a blade, you can choose to resist his attack with your own strength or simply redirect it by allowing it to slide of your blade at an angle and away from your body. It's the ability to react that makes this possible. Even if your range of motion is limited, the act of its own compared to lower dex character should have its value. As far as varies weapon types, the armor already gains or loses AC based on that.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,679
    Draith012 said:

    ...

    As far as heavy armor, the point about effective minimal strength requirement should sound some bells for you. Even at 15 strength a character can carry 120 lbs of gear without it affecting his/her speed or combat effectiveness. If that's true than the 50 lbs of plate armor wouldn't bare much difference. And though you want to argue about the range of motions, can't it be argued still that the slightest of motions can still cause a blade to glance off the armor instead of breaking through. Much like parrying a blade, you can choose to resist his attack with your own strength or simply redirect it by allowing it to slide of your blade at an angle and away from your body. It's the ability to react that makes this possible. Even if your range of motion is limited, the act of its own compared to lower dex character should have its value. As far as varies weapon types, the armor already gains or loses AC based on that.

    A break of consistense can't be used to justify another, this is purely fallacy. It's like say "people kill other people, therefore i can kill people".

    I can't simulate a real combat on infinite engine, not even aurora engine would allow that, but i can very well apply a simple rule set on armors in infinite engine, a limit to Armor Class bonus that comes from Dexterity.
    Draith012 said:

    ...

    Isn't it improper to say that 2E takes from 3.5 when 2E is the predecessor of 3.5? Shouldn't it be 3.5 takes from 2E. Besides, didn't 3.5 have a slew of AC modifiers like: natural/armor, dodge, shield and deflection? (the last one was probably named something else but can't remember it at the moment). I can't even stack rings with magical armor in 2E. In context of AC, 2E and 3.5 have very contrasting rule sets.

    BG original game and BG2 original game where launch both in the 2° generation of D&D. The assignments of right between Wizard of the Coast and companies that release games based on D&D foresee that those games had to respect the actual generation of D&D from what i know (learned this on this very forum).

    BG EE being an enhancement of an old game probally could be under the actual rules or the rule set of the old game time. For launch BG EE in D&D Next (5° Ed) probally tons of changes would be needed, therefore the official edition of BG EE is 2° edition, that's the reason why we say it's a 2° Ed game using some rules and contents of 3.5 Ed.

  • Draith012Draith012 Member Posts: 174
    If you're running on the platform that 'people kill other people, therefore i can kill people' fallacy, you're then stating that simply because others can kill people doesn't, by virtue of transition, mean that you could kill people reflecting that the two are not one and the same. Except we're talking about character stat points which hold a set value from character to character. A 15 Dexterity is the same on one character as it is in an other character with 15 Dexterity. This is a game engine, not real life, and to expect inconsistency to support your statement would render the idea of a game mechanic meaningless. I still hold onto my original statement that the minimal strength requirement is universal through these game mechanical characters to effectively use said armor while maintaining some degree of their reflexive, hand-eye coordination and maneuverability to manipulate incoming attacks. I am not stating a heavily armored character is just as agile than the equally stat-ed character in light armor. But piercing weapons have a harder time piercing a piece of metal armor at it's curvature than a flat surface which can be achieved by a slight alteration in body positioning. You don't have to LEAP out of the way to achieve this end.

    I remember that they had originally plan to allow your Baldur's Gate 2 character to be imported to NWN exccept that never happened. I don't know the cause behind it. Whether it's from lack of time, the fact that the story adventure was not on par with a epic level character or that the difference between a 2nd edition kit classed character simply does not transfer well into 3rd rules and classes. You would be force to simply modify your character entirely which, at such a point, why not just reroll your character concept using the available 3rd edition rules.

    The 3 edition classes presented in EE were all altered to reflect 2nd edition rules, despite their origins. I don't know what rules you're referring to that were 'borrowed' from 3rd.

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