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How to Re-Balance Legacy of Bhaal: A Suggestions Thread

FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
So, if I'm reading the general mood on this forum right, it's generally thought that Legacy of Bhaal has some holes in it in terms of game design; namely, that some of it's changes are too excessive. For example, the rats in Candlekeep now take around 9 minutes to kill, due to the fact that they already had 90% damage reduction to all forms of attack, and now have 80+ HP on top of that. Meanwhile, Sarevok, the supposed final boss of the game, is still as much of a joke as he ever was.

And that's personally my biggest problem with the mode; I feel like the wrong approach was taken in making the game harder. Instead of looking at some of the design flaws that ALLOWED players to cheese the game to start with, the mode just increases the numbers on every enemy in the game. This, then, has three negative effects...

1) It makes the game extremely unbalanced. For example, the Sleep spell; the spell ONLY works with enemies that have 4+3 hit dice or less. And with that global 80+ HP to all enemies...Sleep is now worthless. It literally cannot do a blasted thing; and I'm sure that's not the only spell that's affected by enemy HP. Plus, there's the aforementioned 90% that all the rats have; and it also makes early game enemies significantly harder compared to late game enemies. Finaly, every monster summoned by the Wand of Monster Summoning gets the 80+ HP boost as well; words cannot express how broken that makes it compared to how it was before.

2) Quick Saving, kiting enemies, spamming the Wand of Monster summoning, prematurely killing enemy NPC's by getting them before they can turn red, taking on large groups by casting multiple Stinking Cloud spells outside their vision range...these are all things that make the game easier than it should be. So by pumping up monster stats WITHOUT addressing these core issues...you're not even really making the game harder. You're just making it more tedious.

3) Remember the "you have been waylaid by enemies, and must defend yourself" segments? Well those are borderline unsurvivable now. You're completely surrounded in these encounters! Surrounded by monsters that are far stronger than they were originally designed to be. The ONLY consistent way you can consistently escape is by casting Invisibility on all of your party members before moving on from an area; otherwise, the enemies are just too tough for you! And that's not even including factors such as the Web traps that Ettercaps leave in the Cloakwood Forests!


So, what do I suggest doing to address these issues? Well...personally, I would make the following changes, which will make the game EASIER in some way, and HARDER in others...

Make the Game Easier by...

1) Decreasing the amount of HP and Attacks per Round of all enemies that appear during ambushes. Save the +80 HP and Attacks per Round for unique NPC's (like Carbos & Shank) and uncommon enemies (like the Black Talon Elites); those are the fights that SHOULD be insanely hard! So what I would do is remove the extra Attacks per Round from all of the below enemies, and adjust their HP totals to be the following values...

a) Give +16 HP to Bandits, Gibberlings, Diseased Gibberlings, Half Ogres, Hobgoblins, Kobolds, Wild Dogs, Wolves, Worgs & Xvarts

b) Give +32 HP to Ghasts, Ghouls, Gnolls, Huge Spiders, Ogrillons, Skeletons, Cave Bears, Ogres, Polar Bears, Dread Wolves & Winter Wolves

c) Give +48 HP to Lesser Basilisks, Giant Spiders, and Baby Wyverns

d) Give +64 HP to Ettercaps, Wyverns, Carrion Crawlers, Gray Oozes, Mustard Jellies, Greater Basilisks, Ogre Mages & Vampiric Wolves


So again, all the fights that are SUPPOSED to be insanely hard...will stay insanely hard. It's just that now, the game's difficulty curve is back to where it should be; fairly simple in the beginning, moderately hard in the middle, but then very hard at the end. Plus, this drastically nerfs the Wand of Monster Summoning; +16 HP pales in comparison to the +80 HP and Attacks per Round that you will be facing from unique NPC's and lategame enemies.


Make the Game Harder by...[NOTE THAT THIS WAS ADJUSTED SINCE THE THREAD WAS MADE]

1) Increase the amount of Infrasion that enemies possess, so that casting the Stinking Cloud spells outside their field of vision will no longer be a valid option. This will also keep players from cheesing large groups by luring them away one-at-a-time.

2) Add a reputation drop for every time you attack a neutral NPC, even those that are clearly about to attack you. So now you can't cheese guys like Neville the bandit anymore (area just north of Gnoll Stronghold) or Mutamin (the guy who commands Basilisks in that area north of Gullykin). You can't just paralyze them and kill them before they can activate dialogue with you; you have to fight them fair and square.


So what do you all think?

Post edited by Fionordequester on
ConjurerDragonLoldrup
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Comments

  • justfeelinathomejustfeelinathome Member Posts: 353
    I think one of the most frustrating things in LoB (I'm okay with most of it, it's just a different experience, imho) is backstabs being linked to the new "levels"/extra hp on enemies. Chunking squishier NPCs is way to common (even on max BG1 level) and the only reliable way to surviving a quick ambush like the one after Durlag's Tower Quest in Ulgoths Beard was putting Glitter Dust into a Minor Spell Sequencer to reveal the enemies in hiding. That is a bit too meta-gamey, even for my taste and quintuple damage is just silly...

    brunardo
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,639
    I also think that LoB is a reasonable challenge. Sure it means that some spells and tactics need to be changed, but that's sort of the point of it. I don't really see though the value in radically changing the AI in LoB compared to core rules - I think that sort of change is best done through mods rather than the basic engine.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    If it were me, I would alter the damage resistance on the rats in candlekeep and lower the levels of the hobgoblins, Xvarts, and Kabolds just a little to give starting teams of any configuration a little more to chew on. All of the other enemies I would leave as they currently are.

    I would alter the sleep and entangle spells to make them usable. I know sleep could make the game a walk in the park before. I would try to make it work every once in a while and maybe even alter the time that enemies are disabled by these spells so that they are usable but not overpowering. You could make the sleep spell about as effective as a web spell and then not make it available until you reach Baldur's Gate or one of the far out areas on the map. This would give wizards a bonus because they could pick the sleep spell as a starter spell at the beginning of the game. This would make a pure class wizard more of a party asset at the beginning because as they are, they have very little use because they only have 1 or 2 spells. Being able to disable 2 or 3 enemies when you are facing large groups of Xvarts or Kobolds would be great. I feel like entangle should be more useful, it is the only AOE spell other than sleep that you have to keep groups of enemies at bay when you are level one and unfortunately it never stopped anyone when I tried to use it multiple times. Not having any AOE spells at level one forces the player to kite more which becomes tedious in my opinion. Doom combined with blind would still be a very useful combination for ogres, ghasts, wolfs, ect...

    Most of the truly unbalanced fights I ran into were a combination of LOB and SCS together which I can't really complain about.

    Either way the game is beatable and hard as heck just like it is advertised. I wasn't happy with it at first but I think it really was just me expecting something like insane difficulty with enemies that are a little more hardy. After I came to terms with the changes made and altered my style to accommodate the changes, things became fun and rewarding. It forced me to try completely new methods on some fights and I felt like the economy was much tighter now that I needed to constantly buy special arrows, wands, and scrolls. It was a very epic struggle and a very rewarding experience overall.

    Even though I enjoyed it, I think the changes above would make it more balanced and less tedious without really making the game much easier. It would make the game hard instead of border line immposible when you are level 1-3 but it would still force you to pick your battles and use different methods than you would in a normal play though. These changes would have little to no effect after the Nashkel mines or once you have reached level 4+.

    Post edited by the_sextein on
    Grond0justfeelinathomeGotural
  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016

    (I'm okay with most of it, it's just a different experience, imho)...

    Grond0 said:

    I also think that LoB is a reasonable challenge. Sure it means that some spells and tactics need to be changed, but that's sort of the point of it...

    And that's the crux of what I'm saying. I'm not complaining about LoB because it's hard, I'm complaining about it because it feels more too much like a ROM Hack. That's why my changes only make the early game easier; the late-game would actually be harder than it is now, not easier! Sarevok can't be lured away from his buddies and killed like he can now. And the "Increased Infrasion" and "Disabled Quick Saves", in my ideal LoB, would be exclusive to Legacy of Bhaal; so my changes don't apply to all the other difficulty modes. They only apply to gamers who care more about challenge than they do a legitimate Dungeons and Dragons experience.

    So, let me give an example; there's a Strategy RPG known as "Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War". The game functions by having different "classes" just like the ones we have in Baldur's Gate, except these "classes" have hard stat caps that most will reach by the end of the game. Units can only reach up to 30 points in any stat that isn't HP; and HP can only go up to 80. Most importantly, most endgame enemies end up reaching said stat caps by the end of the game anyway; many of the late-game bosses have maxed stats to start with!

    So let's say there was a global 30+ HP boost to every enemy in the game, as well as a +5 stat boost to every other stat. Such a boost does almost nothing for the late-game, but radically transforms the early game trash enemies you face in the Prologue. They have 36 HP, 5 Strength, 0 Magic and Skill, 7 Speed, 0 Luck, 5 Defense, and 0 Resistance. Add those stat boosts, and their durability is more than doubled, their offense is greatly improved (they get 14 Might from their weapons, so their offense isn't "doubled"), and magic is now less effective than it was.

    Plus, there's a Chapter 1 boss fight that was carefully balanced so that the player would beat it in the way the designers intended. There was a magic user who could kill almost every unit in your army in one shot before anyone could damage him; UNLESS you silenced him with that game's version of the Mute spell. That was possible because his Resistance was 1 point lower than the Magic of the person who had said Mute spell. Status effects cast from a staff work 100% of the time when the caster's Magic is higher than the opponent's Resistance, but NEVER works when their Magic is lower. So by applying that global +30 HP and 5+ Stat boost to every enemy...you've now made that early-game boss almost unbeatable. You COULD get past him, but only by...

    a) Dumping every bit of EXP you could into a character named "Sigurd", and hoping that his Level Ups were good enough.

    b) Save scumming so that you rig something like 53-73% misses on every single attack he launches. Sigurd has to face at least four of this guy's attacks, he can't survive more than one of them even after following Step 1, and you can't get his Evasion much higher than that even with the luckiest level ups.


    Situations like that are the hallmark of the kind of poorly made ROM Hack that you'll find on the internet, and I feel like I'm running into a lot of THOSE kinds of situations on Legacy of Bhaal; moments where the stat increases do not mesh well with the original design of the game. Off the top of my head...

    1) Karlat, a professional assassin in Beregost, is easier to beat than a pack of Diseased Gibberlings you can fight right outside Candlekeep.

    2) Guys like Mulahey and his Kobolds are harder to beat than Sarevok, the literal final boss of the game. This is because of the presence of Kobolds with Flame Arrows inside of a tight corridor; Sarevok has only two lackeys, and is in a wide enough Arena that you can easily lure him away from his goons.

    3) The Wand of Monster Summoning is now obscenely good, because the monsters summoned now have much more HP than your own party members. Plus you can get 100 charges on the Wand by selling and re-buying it.

    4) The ambushes are now nigh-on unsurvivable unless you cast Invisibility on everyone before going to a new area (hence why I suggested getting rid of the extra Attacks per Round of most early game enemies)

    5) Mage classes can now have more than double the starting HP of a 19 Constitution Half Orc Fighter just by casting the Find Familiar spell. That's because of the global +80 HP that all monsters get.

    6) The Candlekeep rats, mere tutorial enemies, now take around 9 minutes to kill.

    7) It's possible to spend 120 Gold coins on a spell that is literally worthless (the Sleep spell)


    And the list goes on. That's what I'm complaining about. It's not that LoB is hard; that's actually a point in it's favor. No, I'm complaining about how unbalanced it is; I'm complaining about how the stat changes are at odds with the core mechanics of the game. Am I making sense now?



    ConjurerDragonLoldrup
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    I would like to argue my opinion that the wand of monster summoning is OP but you can only find one before you reach Baldur's Gate and it only has 7 charges. If you sell it and buy it back it will cost 30,000 Gold which isn't very realistic at that point in the game and if you do save for it then you are passing up most of the good armor and weapons so it would be a fair trade. With SCS I NEEDED this wand to beat the bandit camp and some of the bounty hunter ambushes and with 7 charges I would say that I could have used even more charges from this wand.

    By the time you reach Baldur's Gate and can buy wands of summoning the game's battles are hard enough for these wands not to feel all that OP. In SOD I have had to use 2 or 3 casts from a wand of monster summoning on some of the battles in the under ground caverns.

    Which brings me to another point. I think LOB is balanced pretty well in SOD if you are importing a party from BG1. If you are not importing, then it is crazy based on the starting dungeon.

    BG1 end game seems fine to me because it is similar to SOD. I think a few tweaks to make the first few levels of progression in BG1 a little easier would balance it.

    I have not played BG2 yet so I can't comment on that. I am close to finishing SOD on LOBSCS at the moment so I will be able to give my feedback on BG2EE, LOB, SCS shortly.

    When I fought the Naskal Mine boss fight I used a wand of paralisis that I found on the lighthouse map on the boss and it froze him in place. While my team beat on him with melee weapons I had my caster use a web spell to keep everyone else outside the room frozen in place. After my party beat the boss to death, I then used long range weapons and fireballs from the wand I found in the farmers quest to finish off his skeletons and kobolds. It's a tough fight but if you know where to find the right items it can be done without much of a problem. Even if the wand doesn't work on the first try it will eventually and that will make the fight pretty easy.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    I have to ask; what's "SOD"? Seige of Dragonspear? I never got that, so how does that affect the game's engine?

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    Yeah SOD is siege of dragonspear. It continues on directly after BG1 so your characters are the same level and you have the same gear you had when you beat BG1. In terms of gameplay, the AI is more advanced than BG1 and most fights have larger numbers of enemies than BG1. It's a lot like Icewind dale gameplay. It's pretty tough but as long as you have plenty of webs, greater malisons, fireballs, and monster summonings it is manageable. During the game you go from level 8 to 10 as a fighter. My FMT went from level 6,6,7 to level 8,9,10 over the course of the game. Some of the level 5 summons and lesser elemental summons become available to Jahiera. I would recommend it if you like the Baldur's Gate games.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,639

    Situations like that are the hallmark of the kind of poorly made ROM Hack that you'll find on the internet, and I feel like I'm running into a lot of THOSE kinds of situations on Legacy of Bhaal; moments where the stat increases do not mesh well with the original design of the game. Off the top of my head...

    1) Karlat, a professional assassin in Beregost, is easier to beat than a pack of Diseased Gibberlings you can fight right outside Candlekeep.

    2) Guys like Mulahey and his Kobolds are harder to beat than Sarevok, the literal final boss of the game. This is because of the presence of Kobolds with Flame Arrows inside of a tight corridor; Sarevok has only two lackeys, and is in a wide enough Arena that you can easily lure him away from his goons.

    3) The Wand of Monster Summoning is now obscenely good, because the monsters summoned now have much more HP than your own party members. Plus you can get 100 charges on the Wand by selling and re-buying it.

    4) The ambushes are now nigh-on unsurvivable unless you cast Invisibility on everyone before going to a new area (hence why I suggested getting rid of the extra Attacks per Round of most early game enemies)

    5) Mage classes can now have more than double the starting HP of a 19 Constitution Half Orc Fighter just by casting the Find Familiar spell. That's because of the global +80 HP that all monsters get.

    6) The Candlekeep rats, mere tutorial enemies, now take around 9 minutes to kill.

    7) It's possible to spend 120 Gold coins on a spell that is literally worthless (the Sleep spell)


    And the list goes on. That's what I'm complaining about. It's not that LoB is hard; that's actually a point in it's favor. No, I'm complaining about how unbalanced it is; I'm complaining about how the stat changes are at odds with the core mechanics of the game. Am I making sense now?

    I agree with a lot of what you say - I just don't think it matters in the way you do.

    What you're pointing out is that the appropriate tactics used previously may need to change and I don't see why that's a bad thing. The sleep spell is now useless, which may come as a shock given how overpowered it is in regular BG1, but so what - finding alternative tactics to use is surely the point of having the LoB mode.

    Admittedly the way I play the game is likely to be different from you (I normally play solo and virtually always play no-reload), so I will probably have a different perspective on the game - but in any case everyone likes different things in games anyway. I suppose my point is that I don't see LoB as being particularly different from the regular game or in conflict with its core mechanics. I do agree that it radically changes elements of game balance, but I don't think in itself that's a problem.

    Personally I would say that your proposed solutions would conflict far more with the core mechanics of the game than LoB does. That doesn't mean I think they're bad at all - I just think such changes would make more sense being introduced in a mod than within LoB.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,639

    I have to ask; what's "SOD"? Seige of Dragonspear? I never got that, so how does that affect the game's engine?

    There are quite a few changes to AI. Many of them are similar to the SCS mod, so if you've played that then SoD will feel quite familiar.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    Nope; haven't played that either. So, does the SoD/SCS do a lot to address some of the A.I. shenanigans I mentioned? If so, then maybe Beamdog could just implement those into Vanilla Legacy of Bhaal, decrease the HP values the way I mentioned, and maybe implement some tweaks to Entangle and Sleep? Only complaint I would still have is that the "you have been waylaid by enemies, and must defend yourself" segments would still be utter nonsense. Yes you have Auto-Saves, but I still don't like how luck reliant they are.

    Loldrup
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    In my experience with a party. I would use a party formation that would keep my mage away from the outer edge of the party and I would run from any ambush until I reached level 6. I did take on the SCS bounty hunter ambushes but I had to reload on them a few times in order to beat them. Sometimes I would get ambushed by a bunch of bow wielding users and they would kill my mage but it only happened a few times and you do have the auto save just in case. Once you get stoneskin you should be able to survive any of the ambushes but that is not until later in the game. Without SCS they won't target your mage if you mage is not on the outer edge of your party formation.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    Hmm...so let's say we didn't go with increased Invrasion or Quick Save Disabled. Instead, all we do is adjust the HP values and lessened the Attacks per Round of every enemy I listed above (with the rats having their 90% protection removed). Would you say that would negatively impact the Legacy of Bhaal experience?

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    I thought that they were way too hard for a while but after restarting the game and carefully looking at ways to gain experience without fighting. I found a way to get strong enough with a 4 person party to make it to level 4. I then took on two more characters and beat my way up to level 5. With 6 level 5 characters I took on the Nashkel mines and continued to max out my characters.

    Now that I have done it I don't feel like they are too hard but I used to feel the way you do so I can relate.

    I think if they lowered the levels of a few small enemies at the start of the game it would allow your party to progress a little bit easier and with lower levels would come lower saving throws, thaco, APR, and HP. This might allow entangle and sleep spells to work as well.

    I think if they carefully lowered the enemy levels just a little on a select few monsters that you encounter in the main early game areas it would make the game a little easier when you are a super week level 1 character. They could still leave the majority of enemies alone and it would still feel the same as it currently does. It would just ease the progression from level 1 to level 3 because you mostly run into kobolds, hobgoblins, Xvarts, and Gibberlings in the first areas. Ogrillons, ogres and wolfs could be left alone in order to make your party sweat sometimes and possibly run from battle if things got bad.

    That's my opinion but it's just an opinion based on my experiences.

    I found the game very hard to the point that I didn't like it but once I focused only on missions that required little or no fighting to gain XP with a party of 4 and I used my thief skills to steal key items the game became challenging but not overly hard. For me the first few levels could use a little toning down so that a party of 6 could progress a little smoother and a party of 4 would simply be hard in my opinion.

    As it is, the start of the game feels too hard to me with 6 characters because you just don't level up fast enough to keep up with the enemies. Playing with 4 character until you gain a few levels is hard but I managed it. So for me I would think a small tweak to some of the weakest enemies that are only prevalent in the early game areas would help curb the difficulty at the start without really changing the overall challenge that much. This would make a 6 person party very hard but doable. A 4 person party would not have to pick as carefully at the missions early on in the game and it would allow the spells that were rendered useless to have a purpose again. What I am suggesting would be a subtle difficulty curb that would be noticeable on the main maps between the friendly arm inn and Nashkel and that is all. It would still be super hard, no doubt about that.

    To me the higher level characters with more HP make the fights last longer which allows enemies to use their abilities to the fullest and it makes the fights feel more grand to me. That is why I don't mind the wand of summoning either. This is another reason why I don't like to solo though. If I were soloing the game it would take forever to kill these characters. It may not be hard to level up because you would be hogging all the XP and you could kite all over the map and only have to worry about 1 character but it would take ages to drain the enemies of all their HP. Personally, if I were going to solo the game I would stick to insane difficulty for that reason. Everybody likes different things though and I am not sure Beamdog could satisfy everyone regardless of what they do. I am sure there are many people who like to solo the game on LOB mode. Everybody has different tastes.

    I should also point out that my opinions are based on my skill level as a player. Many people know more about the game then I do and like/dislike things based on their knowledge of certain classes and playstyles. I can only speak from my perspective as a 6 person party player with experience using maybe half of the character kits in the game.

    Post edited by the_sextein on
    Loldrup
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    One suggestion you may not have tried is to turn off the difficulty based damage in the gameplay options. I don't do this personally but if you are finding that enemies extra APR and higher thaco is allowing them to hit you too much then taking away the double damage could help equalize the equation so that the enemies are boosted but no longer getting free critical hit double damage on every attack. They hit twice as much but do half the damage. This allows the enemy to be more in line with the actual rules of the game (core rules) but the enemies are all higher level so they get the extra thaco, APR. The better saving throws and higher HP would still make LOB mode much harder than insane with double damage enabled but maybe not as overkill so that it is still enjoyable. I think that is the purpose of that option.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    If I recall correctly, you can't switch off LoB once it's turned on. That's one of the things it says in the description.

    And like I said, the issue isn't difficulty; in fact, I've found ways to triviliaze even the early game. All I have to do is kill Mutamin and all the Basilisks with Korax's help. Do that, talk to Marl, and do the quests in Wyvern's Crossing and Fishermen's Lake, and BLAMMO; instant 32000 EXP for all party members. So my problem isn't with not being able to beat it.

    The issue is in how poorly the changes mesh with the core mechanics. It doesn't feel like the makers actually play tested the mode; they just pumped the numbers and stopped righ there. And that's how we get nonsense like the Candlekeep rats.

  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    Rats, bats are most likely a oversight, it wasn't meant to be so...
    You can't change Lob slider, but you can turn off the boosted damage from gameplay settings.
    To me it makes no sense to block off Quick-saves etc, do a no-reload challenge if you like, or another way maybe, add a LOB no save achievement.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38

    Rats, bats are most likely a oversight, it wasn't meant to be so...
    You can't change Lob slider, but you can turn off the boosted damage from gameplay settings.

    Oh? Is that right? I'll have to try that.

    To me it makes no sense to block off Quick-saves etc, do a no-reload challenge if you like, or another way maybe, add a LOB no save achievement.

    Alright, I understand why you wouldn't like that. What about the other things I suggested?

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2016
    Mechanically I think the rats are a problem and the two spells I mentioned should not be made useless regardless of the difficulty settings so those should be integrated into LOB mode but other than that, I don't have a problem with anything mechanically.

    Game balance is another thing though. XP farming with Basilisks can get you around the steep difficulty curve if you don't mind doing it but the game is balanced so that it can be beaten more naturally by exploring each area in a more logical order. It just requires a lot of trial and error and running away from some fights until you can obtain the proper equipment. Knowing what fights you can handle and where to get the proper equipment to handle the fights you are not currently ready for is required and can even take some creativity sometimes. LOB isn't meant for casual play. I am not saying it should or shouldn't be, I'm just saying that is how it is.

    I think with a full party and a triple class main character it is borderline too difficult for me because the character progression is very slow. With a few small tweaks I think that could be ironed out. On my play through I kept my party at 4 members for the areas between the friendly arm inn and Nashkel in order to level up to a level of power that kept me up with the enemies in areas that are further away from the main path with a slower 6 party progression in mind. After I explored those initial areas I picked up my last two party members and everything worked out.

    Other than that I don't have any issues with LOB mode personally. I was using SCS which may be the reason why it felt a little too hard with a triple class progression but LOB is certainly pushing the limits of difficulty.

    I won't argue that LOB mode may have been quickly ported into the game without much fine tuning but the boosted enemy stats don't hurt the game mechanically, everything still works the way it did. It just requires that you use the correct potions, arrows, scrolls and wands for your low level characters to take on enemies that are much higher level than you are. It helps to know where to find these items but it could be played by trail and error even if you didn't. The enemy boosts just make it harder and it is extremely tough but beatable without reverting to XP farming. Not that there is anything wrong with farming for XP but I wouldn't think very highly of LOB mode if it forced you to XP farm in order to play it. If it did then I would have a problem with it and I would and did complain about it until I realized it was still possible to play it any way you want as long as you are prepared for this tier style of game progression.

    Difficulty based damage options do allow you to work around the difficulty curve without forcing you to change your role play if you are having problems with the difficulty curve. That is the only reason I mentioned it. Turning off difficulty based damage on LOB mode is like a difficulty level between insane and full on LOB mode. If you were to get stuck on a big battle in LOB mode, you could revert to this option to get past the fight since you can't lower the difficulty once LOB is enabled.

    Post edited by the_sextein on
  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    Yeah...I mean, it totally is beatable. In fact, I started having a great deal of fun with it once I got to Level 4, and started working my way around how to beat the Black Talon elites and everything. And Mulahey was a fun little puzzle as well; LoB starts becoming so much more fun once you get to about Chapter 3-4. Because NOW you have the resources needed to deal with the challenges in a reasonable way. And again, you're fighting stronger enemies now; enemies that are SUPPOSED to be fairly strong from a story perspective.

    It's just the early game that really gets to me. I made some suggestions on how some exploits could be solved, sure; but it's the early game that I really care about. That's why most of my changes really only affect that part of the game; because right now, there's not really a difficulty curve so much as there's a flat line with a craggy peak at the very beginning.

    Loldrup
  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    Yes, early game is the hardest, summon & paralyze wands are indeed op, you may just consider lv3+ and w/o wands to be what LOB is supposed to be, no game is perfect.
    Try SCS, it offers good improved AI, reasonable challenges.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016

    Yes, early game is the hardest, summon & paralyze wands are indeed op, you may just consider lv3+ and w/o wands to be what LOB is supposed to be, no game is perfect.

    I never said that. I said that my changes would also nerf the Wand of Monster Summoning; and the Wand of Paralyzation isn't OP at all! It's strong when it hits; but it doesn't always hit! Using it is still an assessment of "risk vs. reward".

    And Beamdog, from what I can tell, is still regularly patching this game; that's the only reason why I made this thread to start with. So why settle for "good enough" when there's a chance to make a product better ;) ?

    Try SCS, it offers good improved AI, reasonable challenges.

    Is that a mod? Vanilla Baldur's Gate & this Enhanced Edition are the only DnD games that I have ever played, so I'm probably not familiar with a lot of the stuff that you guys are.

  • yowaveyowave Member Posts: 67
    SCS is a mod, and does make the game harder, depends what you choose to install.
    You can also use my mod Tougher Enemies.

  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    "Wand of Paralyzation isn't OP at all" ........Really? oh well.......
    SCS improves AI, so you can't use one-at-a-time cheese you mentioned, most of time at least, there're many other features as well, generally, SCS has better encounters by making enemies smarter, not by granting them tons of immensities(also gives you a choice to do so if you like)

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38

    "Wand of Paralyzation isn't OP at all" ........Really? oh well.......
    SCS improves AI, so you can't use one-at-a-time cheese you mentioned, most of time at least, there're many other features as well, generally, SCS has better encounters by making enemies smarter, not by granting them tons of immensities(also gives you a choice to do so if you like)

    I see! That sounds cool; and maybe I was a little hyperbolic when it came to the Wand of Paralyzation...but it's not going to immediately sail you through any fight that doesn't have one enemy; and those tend to be simple through the virtue of you outnumbering the enemy 6-to-1.

    Besides, you have to deal with saving throws! It's hard to call something OP when it can let you down at a crucial moment, isn't it?

  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    And SCS won't allow you to cheese Basilisks that easily, they bite(causes physical damage) after they realize their target can't be petrified(I've totally forgotten vanilla behavior, maybe they're the same), enemy casters have more spells and will use them very very cleverly. Just use Big-world-setup tool to install it, browse for other mods you like.
    Personally I consider WoP op because it inflicts -4 penalty, which is huge, even for Lob+SCS enemies, I wouldn't argue it anymore if you insist...

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    Oh no, I love arguing; I love debates! I love hearing other people's thoughts about what I say; that's why I always ask the question "what do you guys think?"

    As for the Basilisks, they do come up and bite you in Vanilla Baldur's Gate; it's just that they'll stand still and do nothing if blinded. Because, you know, their eyes aren't working right quite ;) . As for the A.I...if they already have improved A.I. in SCC, would there be anything stopping them from putting in an "improved A.I." option in the next patch?

    Loldrup
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,639
    If you're using SCS then enemies will target the most vulnerable potential target (as opposed to the nearest). For basilisks that normally means that you can't kill them by using your whole party. In LoB a single character could still kill all the basilisks, though if you're relying on the green scroll you will need to work reasonably quickly to get through them all before that expires.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2016
    Huh; interesting. Actually, I'm using the Protection against Petrification spell to defend against the Basilisk's stone gaze, so they wouldn't be a problem either way.

    Now, if I may ask a question...none of you are finding my continued posts to be irritating, are you? I enjoy debating things to the end, and I enjoy the process of that...but not everyone does. Some people look at such a person, and sees a stubborn guy who's trying to force his/her opinions on people. When I argue, though, I enjoy the process regardless of whether or not I actually convince anyone. If you get any counter-arguments from me, it's not because I hate it when people don't agree with me; it's because again, I find the conversation interesting.

    I'm new to this forum, yet made this thread almost immediately after doing so; so I'm worried I may have made the wrong impression. Have I?

  • islandkingislandking Member Posts: 426
    Not at all, your opinion is welcome, as is everyone's in the forum.
    2-3 simultaneously uses of Paralyzation wands literally kicks the most dangerous foe out of picture, like eh,,, did I mention SCS thieves? They backstab...your mage :-)
    As far as I know, 2.4 patch is mainly about bug fixes and porting SOD to tablet.

  • FionordequesterFionordequester Member Posts: 38
    Oh...is that right? So Beamdog isn't really looking for suggestions like how to tweak LoB? I thought they might've been, since there was a mod that felt like changing the Flesh Golem encounters into Carrion Crawler encounters on the Lighthouse map.

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