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Should Kivan have had the archer class kit?

BG:EE changes Branwen into a Priest of Tempus, since it fits her character perfectly. Following this logic, why wouldn't Kivan be changed into an Archer?

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Comments

  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 544
    Yes, that would make sense.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 176
    edited April 30
    It would definitely have been in keeping with the character and be cool but missile weapons are already very powerful in BG and it may have been a balancing decision

    ThacoBellZaxares
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 223
    What ilduderino said. XD Thematically I agree that Kivan would be an Archer, but it's a borderline OP kit and it might have run the risk of overshadowing a lot of other NPC companions, or even the PC themselves. (In my IWD playthrough, where I did bring an Archer, she had the lion's share of kills and XP by the end of the game, almost 50%!)

  • kazaakaskazaakas Member Posts: 2
    Makes sense. Though, archers mostly become powerful at high levels where their THAC0 bonus and prodiciencies really start getting high. I can imagine in the earlier levels (most of BGEE) him being limited to studded leather will make him weaker in some situations.

    DJKajuru
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,799
    I'd go more with Stalker, actually, he seems very vengeful, and isn't he wearing studded leather? As in, stuff he could wear as a Stalker? Anyways, Archer would be very good, but with his dark heart, I could see him backstabbing people.

    ElysianEchoesThacoBellQuartz
  • Phoenix_VIIPhoenix_VII Member Posts: 4
    It'd make sense from a role-playing perspective but Archer is just too OP with BG 1 bows and arrows...if they were scaled down to what they do in BG 2 on the other hand, then I wouldn't see any problems.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,898
    (My own opinion here not Beamdog's)

    I'd rather he be kept versatile as non-kitted. That way he can wear stuff like Platemail and fight both up close and from the back. He really doesn't need the help as an archer.

    Branwen is also a bit different because she doesn't lose out on anything by being made a Priest of Tempus.

    ThacoBellQuartzJuliusBorisovCalmar
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,799
    Archer doesn't really have that big of an edge mechanically over a fighter that uses bows, just a few points in BG1 I think. Beamdog had no problems using an Archer NPC, and she isn't really much worse than Kivan stat-wise iirc.

    I don't like elves in full plate generally, but I can see that it'd be a good choice if you can use it.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 822
    Does Kivan have any particular lore about having spectacular training with bows, beyond that he comes with two pips in them?

    Most players use him as an archer, as in most people use him to fire bows, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the archer kit.

    Even in BG2 Mazzy had grandmastery in shortbows but she wasn't an archer. Valygar was about as proficient in longbows as Kivan, and he wasn't an archer. So on and so forth.

    elminsterQuartzSkatan
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,379
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Does Kivan have any particular lore about having spectacular training with bows, beyond that he comes with two pips in them?

    Most players use him as an archer, as in most people use him to fire bows, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the archer kit.

    Even in BG2 Mazzy had grandmastery in shortbows but she wasn't an archer. Valygar was about as proficient in longbows as Kivan, and he wasn't an archer. So on and so forth.

    I'd rather see him have more useful weapon choices myself. Halberds are a waste for a ranger...

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    He should not be an Archer, reason being, he is a Stalker. :P

    Coran is the one with illegally high proficiency with bows; if anyone, he should be an Archer. (He's already illegal in 2 ways, might as well make him a fighter/thief with a ranger kit...)

    DreadKhanQuartz
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,008


    Stalkers are rangers who blend with the common folk ,specially in villages and urban areas in order to spy and gather information. Canonically, Kivan ain't doing any of those.

    BGEE Kivan is a regular ranger who hates and hunts Tazok and other bandits ,he could be of any bow-permitting kit.

    NPC project Kivan is an archer through and through, so is his Bg2 mod.

    ThacoBellBalrog99
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 822
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Does Kivan have any particular lore about having spectacular training with bows, beyond that he comes with two pips in them?

    Most players use him as an archer, as in most people use him to fire bows, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's the archer kit.

    Even in BG2 Mazzy had grandmastery in shortbows but she wasn't an archer. Valygar was about as proficient in longbows as Kivan, and he wasn't an archer. So on and so forth.

    I'd rather see him have more useful weapon choices myself. Halberds are a waste for a ranger...

    Eh, strictly speaking halberds work as well on a ranger as on anybody else. They just don't make use of the ranger's free two weapon style pips, which didn't exist in vanilla BG1.

    Minsc with a 2 handed sword is a fan favorite.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
    Honestly I don't get all the comments about how he is "thematically" an Archer. I'm playing with NPC Project right now, and there has been zero discussion (so far) about him training with bows particularly, or anything like that.

    Plus, that's an unofficial mod. The vanilla game, of course, has basically zero characterization.

    Coran is a notably superior archer. Kivan's STR score suggests he should be focused on melee, not ranged combat... if anything, he should probably have the Justifier kit.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,455
    Coran is a notably superior archer. Kivan's STR score suggests he should be focused on melee, not ranged combat... if anything, he should probably have the Justifier kit.

    I second that.

    And I prefer Coran as a Ranger (Archer) than as a Fighter/Thief.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 822
    Coran has a valuable niche as a fighter/thief, since you pick him up right around the point when Imoen will be ready to dual class.

    His very little characterization mostly revolves around hunting and cheating on his girlfriends, so it's not like a ranger wouldn't make sense lore-wise, but gameplay-wise I feel like it would be a major loss to switch his class.

  • Ludwig_IILudwig_II Member Posts: 182
    edited May 1
    I think Kivan is thematically considered as an Archer purely due to his picture. He looks a lot like an archer to me, much more than Corwin as well.

    DJKajurusubtledoctorZaxaresredline
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,008
    Honestly I don't get all the comments about how he is "thematically" an Archer. I'm playing with NPC Project right now, and there has been zero discussion (so far) about him training with bows particularly, or anything like that.

    Plus, that's an unofficial mod. The vanilla game, of course, has basically zero characterization.

    Coran is a notably superior archer. Kivan's STR score suggests he should be focused on melee, not ranged combat... if anything, he should probably have the Justifier kit.

    In the NPC project he has dialogues with charname where he talks about his role as an archer back in shilmista . If I recall correctly he also mentions it in a banter with Imoen. Not to mention that he had a magical bow . 'Sides , in his BG2 mod is written by the same person and he is an archer there. But as I said that's according to the mod,canonically he could have any kit whatsoever since nothing is too clear about it.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 822
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    I think Kivan is thematically considered as an Archer purely due to his picture. He looks a lot like an archer to me, much more than Corwin as well.

    Insofar as his portrait portrays him using a bow, but plenty of characters use bows and aren't archers.

    DreadKhanQuartz
  • cloudkillbeatsallcloudkillbeatsall Member Posts: 98
    edited May 1
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    Stalkers are rangers who blend with the common folk ,specially in villages and urban areas in order to spy and gather information. Canonically, Kivan ain't doing any of those.

    I think they're grim folk that don't say much and take to the wild more than they take to people.
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    BGEE Kivan is a regular ranger who hates and hunts Tazok and other bandits ,he could be of any bow-permitting kit

    Hate sounds like a favoured enemy. You've even got the back story of someone who has done the ranger brutally wrong in the past.

    EDIT: I thought you were talking about him not being a ranger. I should get more sleep at night and pay better attention. Never mind.

    DJKajuru
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,799
    Chronicler wrote: »
    Ludwig_II wrote: »
    I think Kivan is thematically considered as an Archer purely due to his picture. He looks a lot like an archer to me, much more than Corwin as well.

    Insofar as his portrait portrays him using a bow, but plenty of characters use bows and aren't archers.

    I once had a cleric who's portrait featured a blade!

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,025
    @subtledoctor brings up an interesting idea, and I kinda agree with it. The dropped Justifier kit fits Kivan perfectly. Being a more weapon focused Ranger kit that focuses on hunting down evil and whatnot.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,131
  • Humanoid_TaifunHumanoid_Taifun Member Posts: 963
    @CamDawg I was waiting for somebody to point that out. It took a good long while. But maybe everybody else was just waiting with me.

    DreadKhan
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 223
    Yeah, a big part of why I see Kivan as an Archer is due to his profile picture. ;) That said, he also starts out with Longbow and Halberd proficiencies, which to me doesn't really seem to suit the sort of person who likes things up close and personal. (Halberds, after all, were primarily designed for keeping mounted foes away, as well as giving greater strength for cutting through armor.)

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 822
    IRL Halberds aren't really comparable to Baldur's Gate Halberds. You just planted them in the ground and let the enemy horse run into it and impale itself. Then you'd fight the knight on top of the horse with some other weapon, since your halberd's now stuck in the horse.

    There wasn't really any complicated martial art built around halberds or anything.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 223
    Halberds evolved from the more basic pikes, so yeah, they were occasionally still used for that purpose. The halberd's evolution, to my knowledge anyway, came from the need for a multi-purpose weapon for infantrymen who needed to fight cavalry in close quarters in circumstances other than a cavalry charge. As a two-handed weapon, the halberd provided more mass and cutting power behind it to get through early plate armor, while still giving them the reach to stay out of the rider's sword (horsemen very rarely used two-handed weapons as they typically needed one hand to control the reins).

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,799
    There certainly are halberds used primarily as cutting weapons in the East, they are very common actually throughout, provided the fighting conditions are suitable for large weapons (IE not so much in jungles). European halberds and other polearms certainly were used vs non-mounted opponents though, so I'm a bit confused what you're saying.

    Regarding martial arts, they were extensively used in the East, and had very skilled users. I don't think polearms were popular to train with unless you're an actual soldier though, since you can't easily carry around a 10ft weapon in a crowded city, let alone in doors.

    BTW, the European halberd likely evolved as much from the bill as the pike, and the bill relies on a hooked blade to work. These were developed for pruning trees actually, and people thought they'd be handy in battle, or at least more practical than most weapons.

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