Proposition & Theorycrafting: Temple of Elemental Evil in EET
Endarire
Member Posts: 1,512
Greetings, all!
With EEex publically released in its early stages as of this post, this is an idea for all modders interested in expanding the multiverse of playable space for EET: Temple of Elemental Evil (preferably with the Circle of Eight fixes and extra quests/content from www.co8.org) recreated/ported in EET.
ToEE is intended as a low-level adventure, meaning parties would need to start in the ToEE portion of the game or be able to head there soon after starting a new game. Maybe a portal opens to Hommlet after visiting the Friendly Arm Inn or the Nashkel Mines. Maybe the party finds a portal in Sigil because Planescape: Torment is also in EET by that point.
A similar notion applies to the fan-converted low-level module in the ToEE engine Keep on the Borderlands, which could be accessed by another, similar portal.
In terms of technical details, I'm unsure how compatible the dialog/text files and graphics/animation/effects files are with the EET platform, but things could be converted, at least in theory. Various audio files (sound effects, voiceovers, and music), as well as portraits and background maps should be easily portable, perhaps after converting some file types. I'm unsure how ToEE-exclusive creature models/animations would be handled, like the ToEE final boss. A new overworld map would need drawing and implementing to match EET's current Worldmap mod's style. www.co8.org has various documentation on file formats, and ShiningTed and Sitra Achara on co8.org are leading experts on many of ToEE's technical details. (I'm well aware that ToEE's engine is natively 3.x, but with IWD-in-EET having 3e material, maybe ToEE's rules conversion is less problematic. The ToEE module is based on AD&D after all!)
Why mention this? Because the D&D multiverse is vast, ToEE seems like an underconsidered avenue for content to include as another place for the Bhaalspawn to visit, and I like planar travel!
PS: There's already a playable demo of Icewind Dale in the ToEE engine with their forum here!
With EEex publically released in its early stages as of this post, this is an idea for all modders interested in expanding the multiverse of playable space for EET: Temple of Elemental Evil (preferably with the Circle of Eight fixes and extra quests/content from www.co8.org) recreated/ported in EET.
ToEE is intended as a low-level adventure, meaning parties would need to start in the ToEE portion of the game or be able to head there soon after starting a new game. Maybe a portal opens to Hommlet after visiting the Friendly Arm Inn or the Nashkel Mines. Maybe the party finds a portal in Sigil because Planescape: Torment is also in EET by that point.
A similar notion applies to the fan-converted low-level module in the ToEE engine Keep on the Borderlands, which could be accessed by another, similar portal.
In terms of technical details, I'm unsure how compatible the dialog/text files and graphics/animation/effects files are with the EET platform, but things could be converted, at least in theory. Various audio files (sound effects, voiceovers, and music), as well as portraits and background maps should be easily portable, perhaps after converting some file types. I'm unsure how ToEE-exclusive creature models/animations would be handled, like the ToEE final boss. A new overworld map would need drawing and implementing to match EET's current Worldmap mod's style. www.co8.org has various documentation on file formats, and ShiningTed and Sitra Achara on co8.org are leading experts on many of ToEE's technical details. (I'm well aware that ToEE's engine is natively 3.x, but with IWD-in-EET having 3e material, maybe ToEE's rules conversion is less problematic. The ToEE module is based on AD&D after all!)
Why mention this? Because the D&D multiverse is vast, ToEE seems like an underconsidered avenue for content to include as another place for the Bhaalspawn to visit, and I like planar travel!
PS: There's already a playable demo of Icewind Dale in the ToEE engine with their forum here!
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Comments
I've looked into adapting the PnP ToEE campaign into BG2EE, but, like many other fun projects, that one died because I didn't have anyone to do area design. Regardless, I haven't actually played the ToEE video game (although I do own a copy), but from a quick glance, I'd raise a few issues.
1) There is a substantive legal issue. Beamdog/Bioware don't seem to care (e.g. they don't enforce) the copyright on game assets as long as they are being used for mods on the other IE games. For example, I could take an item art from IWD2 and use it for something in BG2EE without having to worry too much. ToEE's IP was developed by Troika Games, so the use of its assets in EET might present some legal issues. (I know there are people who had gotten assets from other games such as Diablo and Kingmaker and implemented them in the EE engine, but that is pretty unambiguously a violation of copyright.)
2) According to wikipedia, ToEE uses an upgraded version of the Arcanum engine, which, I recall from fiddling with about 15 years ago, is an absolute nightmare to work with. (Maybe my opinion would be different now after writing several thousand lines of OCAML-adjacent code for IE mods, but still). The difference in game engines would pose a substantive problem for automating the conversion, and thus a conversion effort of any quality would probably require manual porting of game files (or the construction of specialized tools to automate the process, which might take as much time to develop as just manually converting the resources).
3) There is a difference of base game mechanics (2E vs. 3E). While this isn't insurmountable, it does mean that someone needs to design a systematic way to handle converting 3E resources to a 2E game. Again, this isn't impossible, but it requires development of tools and some manual effort on top to make it work properly.
4) There is a lore issue. EET takes place on the Sword Coast of Faerun, while ToEE is a location in the central part of Greyhawk's main continent. Obviously, this is pretty minor, and you can handwave it with portals, but lore-savvy people might take issue with something like Clerics being able to invoke their spells while on a plane on which their deities don't exist (Faerun deities don't exist in Greyhawk, etc etc). Thus, there is a thematic disconnect that would probably be ideal to address, even if it's minor.
I don't want it to seem like I'm saying this idea can't and shouldn't be done, but a direct import of ToEE resources/content into EET is both a legal and logistical nightmare.
1: I acknowledge there is the question of legality. Some fan projects have been targeted by cease and desist efforts by companies, but ToEE for PC was never very popular. Assuming whoever's doing this makes it unmistakably clear that this project isn't done for monetary reasons (meaning, no selling of others' stuff for money illegally) and that if the copyright holders found this project objectionable, the project would immediately halt production, this seems fine from a practical standpoint.
2: I agree that converting ToEE's game files to work with EET/EEex would require lots of manual labor. I'm unsure what's involved.
3: With EEex and IWD's 3e ruleset en route, adding the ToEE world seems like a surmountable technical obstacle. Additionally or alternatively, check out 2e AD&D conversions of the ToEE module. (Googling will help.) Greyhawk and ToEE were well-known and well-used in the 2e AD&D days.
4: Planescape and Spelljammer were made in the 2e AD&D days to facilitate characters traveling between and amongst settings. Ravenloft has a major character (probably a villain whose name I don't recall) who came from Krynn of Dragonlance fame. It's stated somewhere in the 3.x rules that Oerth/Toril versions of certain deities like Lolth are different, but also remember that characters in standard BGII could cast their spells (arcane and divine) on other planes. Also, in Toril, most deities aren't on the same plane physically as their material plane worshippers/followers/priests: They have their own places in the multiverse. Canonically in 3.x, the Plane of Shadow connects to all places in the multiverse. BGIIEE has a mission that takes place briefly on the Plane of Shadow. Having characters access Oerth via a Sigil hub (assuming PS:TEE is ported to EET or certain maps from there are borrowed for this project) is plausible in-universe.
ToEE for PC adapts an AD&D module to 3.x rules. (It's mostly 3.5 but some 3.0 is still in-engine.) Fortunately for us, ToEE is natively written for 1e AD&D, but the rules differences between 1e AD&D and 2e AD&D are much more pleasant for our purposes than the 2e/3e split.
The main technical difficulties I foresee in adapting ToEE to EET are thus:
-Dialog and text. ToEE still has lots of text.
-Potential concerns about copyright. All images and sound files from the ToEE base game (excluding mods) don't legally belong to the community. Whether someone would want to take legal action over this is another matter. (See below for my workaround.)
-Certain creatures aren't in the Infinity Engine. Most notably, this means Zuggtmoy, the temple's Big Bad, and her fungal/plant minions. To a potentially lesser degree, this also means Bodaks, Lamias, and Juggernauts. The plant minions could be replaced with Shambling Mounds, and Bodaks/Lamias/Juggernauts are low priority creatures in ToEE. (Use an iron/adamantine golem for a Juggernaut if need be.) Going for a tabletop-to-EET faithful transition would require these units, however. (Iuz and St Cuthbert could be humans with the appropriate gear and stats, possibly enlarged.)
-Backgrounds would need doing, either taken directly from the game or drawn specifically for this module.
-Creature AI may need teaking.
Now for the positives:
+You probably wouldn't need new spells nor effects.
+For graphics, I found these people who seem skilled and who may be willing to help: kexik, Gorionar, and bob_veng. More people may exist.
+Roxanne or/and others may be willing and able to help with the coding/map editing part of area creation.
+ToEE from the PC game anyway has fewer maps than Baldur's Gate 1. (Hommlet exterior, Hommlet house interiors, Temple of St. Cuthbert 1F & 2F, various shop interiors, Moathouse exterior, Moathouse interior 1F & B1, ToEE Exterior, ToEE B1 & B2 & B3 & B4, the four Elemental Nodes, Emridy Meadows, and everything else listed here.)
+Dialog and text are the most important things to transfer or recreate.
+Most enemies are Humanoid or Goblinoid. Undead, Giants, Animals/Vermin and Elementals are the next most common. Also, fortunately for us, most the creature models already exist in the Infinity Engine.
+ToEE doesn't need to be voiced, and if a lack of voice acting is problematic, ask around in the community for people to contribute. Most characters are male.
+There's plenty of fan-made content in the Circle of Eight community should you want to port or recreate ToEE's fan-made second half or Keep on the Borderlands module. Against the Giants was another module that people wanted to do in ToEE's engine, but felt wouldn't work due to technical limitations.
+Greyhawk could make a wonderful alternative or additional EET campaign setting! Plenty of people would like to play a D&D RPG (even in the Infinity EEngine) set in Greyhawk/Oerth - including me. Greyhawk received a lot of module support in 1e and 2e should someone wish to add to that world map.
+Using Sigil/Planescape as a hub would allow modders to make adventures in a variety of campaign settings!
Based on my understanding of the end of Throne of Bhaal, CHARNAME isn't omnipotent and can still be countered by other beings more powerful. CHARNAME also isn't a deity, but can become one at the end of ToB by absorbing the deific essence. CHARNAME is sort of an avatar of Bhaal, and during the playable parts of the BG games, simply lacks deific powers that true deities possess.
My understanding of Sigil is that Her Serenity, The Lady of Pain, allows deities in Sigil who suppress their deific powers. (Wikipedia lists two sources of exceptions for 'no deities in Sigil.') If that's problematic, use a portal directly between Oerth and Toril.
As for deities from another campaign setting/crystal sphere allowing in or blocking a foreign being of immense potential power, that's for them to decide. They may be too busy protecting themselves from their more local rivals (Gruumsh vs. Corellon Larethian for example) to notice or care. Since the GM is the one who plays the part of the deities in a tabletop game, if a GM lets it happen, it happens.
Ultimately, some abstraction or handwaving is done for the sake of letting the party play the contents of another game and giving players more options. Also, ToEE/Co8 has no multiplayer option but Infinity Engine games do!
Thankee!
I can provide advice but I simply do not have the time to help with this project in a more concrete way (I barely have time to keep my existing mods working, much less take on new ones).
(I'm not gonna touch on the legality issue, I don't know enough about copyright law to say anything intelligent about it other than "you might get a C&D").