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Dual Class questions (possible combinations and vs Multi)

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  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 737
    Yes the grandmastery in bg2ee grants 0,5 apr bonus to specialization, 1 apr whole.
    And in iwdee is +1 apr bonus to spec so 1,5 apr for just grandmastery, so sweet.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,164
    @Neo when i was talking about a +1 apr due to GM i was considering the 0.5 from specialization and GM stacking, as a druid, mage or other classes miss both them. but even with a single level of fighter can get them, while to get the level dependent ones the F class should reach at least lev. 7 and 13, for an other 0.5 apr each step.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    about the early duals and bg2 i still think that, even if are not legittimate starting there, can be useful.
    It's not about that. It's about the fact that going lvl 9 instead 2 for the dual is almost the same cost in BG2, but for a MUCH bigger effect.
    this is true, but only if you want to maximize the power of the toon.
    thing that is quite logic to do for who play on very hard settings.
    the early dual, for who likes a more relaxed way of playing, has a "feeling" much more similar to the single (second) class toon.
    it is sure that the F9->M is much more capable then the F2->M and the F9->D is superior to the F2 version, at a cost that is not harsh at all to pay. but for those that start in bg and not in soa it is different as they have to play a fighter and not a mage or druid for a long time.
    even starting in soa you will play them in a different way from single class mage or druid, as they are so capable as fighters.
    more power, but at a price of a different feeling.
    for those that are interested in playing a mage or a druid, not necessarily the most powerful character, an early dual can be a relevant boost, without altering the feeling of playing a M or a D.
    and for the M2->F the same is true, you pay some hp, pips and loose the chance to have a kit, but in change you can use wands, scrolls and the SoTM. and a fighter, with proper fighter apr and hla, that can go to a difficult battle with a stoneskin, mirror images, blur, if needed spell immunity, a long lasting spell trap that protect him from 30 levels of spells, that can use the wand that breaches the enemy and a staff that is as good as the pally only sword to dispel on hit is not something that lacks its own power, i would say that comparing him with a dwarf berseker is a close call...

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    edited December 2019
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    this is true, but only if you want to maximize the power of the toon.
    If you don't, there's nothing to talk about. Do whatever you like. "I prefer it this way" trumps every argument. It SHOULD trump every argument. It doesn't change the underlying facts, though, and people who are asking for advice should have those facts before they make their decision - even if that decision ends up being something that doesn't follow the objectively most advantageous path.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    it is sure that the F9->M is much more capable then the F2->M and the F9->D is superior to the F2 version, at a cost that is not harsh at all to pay. but for those that start in bg and not in soa it is different as they have to play a fighter and not a mage or druid for a long time.
    If you're talking about BG1, everything is different (but this is the BG2 subforum). That's why I kept saying "in BG2" every second sentence.
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    even starting in soa you will play them in a different way from single class mage or druid, as they are so capable as fighters.
    If you're starting SoA you can't dual as lvl 2 anyway without editing - so someone who does that has at least some knowledge of the game and is not a naive first-time player. Anyone with even a little of an idea about SoA will find it absolutely trivial to dual F9->D if they're into dualing in the first place. Getting to Druid 10 is literally the easiest of any class. No 9 dual regains levels faster. In fact, you'll even be the same level Druid eventually, as the 250,000xp you spent on fighter is less than the 300,000xp per level for high-level Druids - so at best you'll be one level ahead (and not even all the time) for a class with drastically slow scaling past lvl 15.

    If you want an analogy: you're saying "just buy a cheap used car for $1000" when you could buy a brand new car for $1200. And when asked why you go "well it still gets you places, and $1000 is cheaper!" - except that getting a brand new car for just $200 extra is a fantastically good deal and you'd be silly not to take it. Even as a first-time driver. (whereas a lvl 13 dual would be like getting a Ferrari for $500,000 - sure it's amazing but to save all that money you'd have to go years without a car and is that really something you want just to have a faster car somewhere down the line)

    ithildurnewgorgonzola
  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 112
    edited December 2019
    I think Gorgonzola’s lvl2 suggestion can be valid and interesting depending on the type of playthrough (mostly if you start from BG1), but I understand the point that Lord_Tansheron is making for BG2/ToB.

    I made this post in the BG2 forums section for 2 reasons despite playing BG1/SoD/BG2/ToB. 1st is because I think that it’s the most active BG subforum (more likely to get replies). The other reason is because I do continue into BG2 and want to take late game into consideration as well.

    Taking the whole series into consideration, it changes many things. Like my current Stalker was solid for BG1, surely overall stronger for backstab into melee play compared to a thief option. However, even with the Stalker unique SoD gloves, I know that my Stalker will turn out to be weaker at almost everything and more limited than my F/T was mid/late game through BG2 (my Dark Moon Monk was the opposite).

    As I wrote, despite multiple playthroughs, I only truly did a Charname dual once (BG1 Kensai 7 -> M since I couldn’t afford the lvl 9 dual with BG1). I never realized that lvl 9 fighter would only maybe make me lose 0-1 levels on the 2nd class in the long run for BG2 though.

    Just one thing about Staff of the Magi that was mentionned a few times, I did use its Spell Trap on my F/T (multi) in my last BG2 playthrough with Use All Items HLA. I’m just wondering what makes its dispell so good. Sure this time around, I have SCS installed which might make it harder but even in the unmodded version, when enemy casters set up defenses like stoneskin and mirror image, doesn’t it make the attack fail and result in no dispell? What about Mantles or immunity to magic weapons? Are there some defenses that will block the staff’s damage (stoneskin for example) while the dispell would still trigger? I had Carsomyr and this staff in my last BG2 playthrough but I normally stripped enemy caster defenses right away with spells/abilities so I didn’t really get to see how useful those 2 weapons’ dispell on hit were.

    gorgonzola
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Neo wrote: »
    Just one thing about Staff of the Magi that was mentionned a few times, I did use its Spell Trap on my F/T (multi) in my last BG2 playthrough with Use All Items HLA. I’m just wondering what makes its dispell so good. Sure this time around, I have SCS installed which might make it harder but even in the unmodded version, when enemy casters set up defenses like stoneskin and mirror image, doesn’t it make the attack fail and result in no dispell? What about Mantles or immunity to magic weapons? Are there some defenses that will block the staff’s damage (stoneskin for example) while the dispell would still trigger? I had Carsomyr and this staff in my last BG2 playthrough but I normally stripped enemy caster defenses right away with spells/abilities so I didn’t really get to see how useful those 2 weapons’ dispell on hit were.
    A good rule of thumb is that it works on anything that doesn't return "weapon ineffective". I.e. hitting someone with Stoneskin WILL dispel, while hitting someone with Protection from Magic Weapons (or similar effects, based on enchantment level) will NOT dispel. Being able to tear through all defensive and offensive buffs save a small handful (Carsomyr+6 even goes through the ironically named Absolute Immunity) is obscenely powerful - doubly so because casters are the scariest enemies in BG2, and largely because of their buffs.

    As for optimizing class setup for a full series run, that's very hard to do. There's so many things to consider. I don't enjoy BG1 nearly as much as BG2 so I basically only play BG2; my knowledge of BG1 is limited.

    Neogorgonzola
  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 112
    I see, this means that SotM and Carsomyr+6 are very strong in unmodded (although chances are you might have Keldorn’s OP dispell if you have Carsomyr). But with SCS installed, they might not be too great apart from vs enemy clerics or to dispell potions. I’m saying this because SCS mantles are stronger, absolute immunity covers up to +6 and enemy casters will normally instant cast protection from magic weapons AND some other defenses vs Breach so I still couldn’t just breach-> hit them for the dispell.

    As for characters for whole series, I’ve only done full series with a Sorcerer (this one was fine) and Dark Moon Monk (horribly weak for BG1, very weak for SoD, slowly becomes OP in BG2 as it gains more lvls starting at lvl 15+). I made 5 custom characters + Dorn this time around so I should have at least one that is strong or fun at all stages but many classes/kits that quickly become strong in BG1 then fall behind in BG2 and vice versa. I also prefer BG2 but I like the whole series for a longer game that feels more complete and I only had vanilla BG1 as a teenager when it came out so therés also a bit of nostalgia:P

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Carsomyr is still an absolutely ridiculous weapon, even with SCS. Going from an 11/10 to a mere 10/10 is not a big hit ;) And yes, the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic is really, really good for similar reasons. It has the added benefit of mechanically being a "lvl 0" spell and thus outside of the range of spell level immunities, so it will work against e.g. Liches when normal Dispel/Remove Magic do not as Liches are immune to spells level 1-5.

    Darkmoon Monk is a nut I have yet to crack. It theoretically has some very powerful things going for it - in my setup, it has one of the highest damage outputs among attackers thanks to the high base damage of fists and powerful gloves. However, it also suffers from weak defenses, which in my game are paramount because LoB makes everything last so much longer. Constantly having to pull out because a golem or whatever will pulp you in two hits is not a good feeling.

    That's a good illustration of why Fighter/Mage duals or multis are so damn good - they are simply incredibly tough to kill. But the lower your overall difficulty and the more forgiving your personal reload policy, the more you can shift towards offense instead of defense. Dead enemies deal zero damage.

  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 201
    edited December 2019
    If you want an analogy: you're saying "just buy a cheap used car for $1000" when you could buy a brand new car for $1200. And when asked why you go "well it still gets you places, and $1000 is cheaper!" - except that getting a brand new car for just $200 extra is a fantastically good deal and you'd be silly not to take it. Even as a first-time driver. (whereas a lvl 13 dual would be like getting a Ferrari for $500,000 - sure it's amazing but to save all that money you'd have to go years without a car and is that really something you want just to have a faster car somewhere down the line)

    Perfect analogy; I was searching for an analogy to explain to someone insisting on rolling a Mage2>Dual to Fighter - this captures it well.

    Grond0
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,164
    edited December 2019
    @ithildurnew i think that the analogy works very well if we are talking of dualing a fighter into druid or mage at lev 2 or 9.
    but not for M2->F, that is not an usual way to go, usually people dual from F to M.
    starting with mage you get the use of sotm, wands and scrolls loosing the possibility to have a fighter kit and some hp. but having up to 0 base thac0, the +2 apr of a fighter (lev 13 and GM) and fighter hla, that a F->M misses.
    here to dual at a higher level is possible, but probably not worth, you have to go to M7 to get 1 stoneskin and 3 mirror images, at 8 for the second stoneskin, and being cast by a low level mage will protect only against 3 (L7) or 4 (L8) attacks. the same is true for the images created. you gain also some other low level mage spells, but nothing really game changing, and you miss a fair amount of hp in the process, so dualing at 2 is perfectly fine.
    to compare a M2F to a F9M could be a better comparison, but here we are comparing automobiles with motorcycles, not an used car to a new one, a fighter with fighter's apr and hla is a completely different thing then a dual that can fight quite well and tank exceptionally well but is going to become a powerful archmage in the end game.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    but not for M2->F, that is not an usual way to go, usually people dual from F to M.
    starting with mage you get the use of sotm, wands and scrolls loosing the possibility to have a fighter kit and some hp. but having up to 0 base thac0, the +2 apr of a fighter (lev 13 and GM) and fighter hla, that a F->M misses.
    There's a reason this isn't something people do in BG2: magic is insanely powerful in BG2, much more so than in BG1 (where it's already pretty good). In BG1, having access to wands and scrolls alone is good enough - but in BG2, losing out on the huge array of mid to high tier mage spells is a considerable drop in power.
    Also, you don't lose GM as a F9->M, all you lose is the +0.5 APR from lvl 13, and the HLAs - and who needs Hardiness when your mage spells make you unkillable, and who needs Whirlwind Attack when Improved Haste can get you to a passive 10 APR for much longer.

    There really is just no reason to dual M2->F in BG2.

    Grond0ithildurnewgorgonzola
  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 112
    edited December 2019
    I don't want to get in the way of the discussion of if the 2 - > Dual can be viable in BG2 since I was myself asking questions about duals as I have very little knowledge about them (despite my Steam saying that I have 375h played on BG1, 425h on BG2, not counting when I played up North without internet years ago and vanilla BG1 when I was a teenager, it's crazy how I still have much to learn about this game after about 800-900h of game time spent on it).
    Darkmoon Monk is a nut I have yet to crack. It theoretically has some very powerful things going for it - in my setup, it has one of the highest damage outputs among attackers thanks to the high base damage of fists and powerful gloves. However, it also suffers from weak defenses, which in my game are paramount because LoB makes everything last so much longer. Constantly having to pull out because a golem or whatever will pulp you in two hits is not a good feeling.

    About the DM Monk though, I haven't played on LoB (Legacy of Bhaal?) so it might be a lot harder than what I've played so far and I certainly understand that it can change a lot of things and make some classes not as viable. However, for BG1 it would be a big deal but since I think that you wrote that you only play BG2 (unless I confused you with an other poster), I don't think the strength/survivability of the Monk would be as big of an issue considering that what makes it really strong at lvl 15+ are its defenses more than its offense.

    Here are the stats taken from my DM Monk when unbuffed at the end of ToB before the final battle (lvl 39, 6 party members):

    Str:23
    Dex:21
    Con:22
    Int:13
    Wis:11
    Cha:14

    The BG1 books were used here on top of the ToB WK bonuses and the end of SoA Evil bonuses (the scores are not coming from items).

    AC: -18 base (modifiers: -4 Crushing, -13 missiles) which is very high (-31 AC unbuffed vs missiles!). Dark Moon Monk also has Blurr so you can add 3 AC to this with this very long lasting buff so it has some of the best AC in the game at higher levels.

    175hp

    THAC0: -15 (pretty good)

    Super fast mobility from Class + boots of speed

    Damage: 4 APR, 20-39 damage that count as +4 weapons (can easily add +2 cold damage per hit with the Kit's special ability Frozen Fist that lasts 1 turn and I have 10 uses of it). No HLAs are really good unfortunately aside from GWW and Hardiness so you can have tons of hardiness and/or GWWs to make you hit 10 attacks per round several rounds (to sort of negate the fact that Monk can't be hasted unfortunately), I personally have 1 WW, 12 GWW, 5 Hardiness, I don't think I ever ran out of any of those even during the longest fights.

    Saving Throws are all at -5

    Thief skills:
    -Find Traps: 100
    -Detect Illusions: 100
    -Hide in Shadows: 110
    -Move Silently: 160

    Resistances:
    -All 4 physical: 25% (I don't remember where I got those but I can't find any equipped items that gives resistances to those)
    -Poison: 100% (immune)
    -Magic: 113 (it might depend on your mods here, I personally used an item mod that allowed me to find back the Cloak of Balduran in BG2 along with some SoD items that can be bought back and such with the Unofficial Item Pack, if I unequip the OP cloak, I'm still at 88%)

    Immunities:
    -Poison
    -Slow (Monk basically has Free Action, big downside is he can't be buffed with Haste/Improved Haste which makes GWW very useful later on)
    -Disease.

    Gear used:
    -Gauntlets of Crushing
    -Headband of Focus (SoD helm that is probably best in slot for Monk and accessible with the item mod but some other headpieces can still work fine at higher levels, especially when DHUM isn't as useful anymore).
    -Wooden Horse Necklace (BG2 EE item)
    -Ring of Earth Control
    -Ring of Gaxx
    -Cloak of Balduran (BG1, can be acquired back in BG2 after killing a certain Dragon through the item mod)
    -Boots of speed
    -+4 crushing attacks AC belt
    -Hindo's Doom +4 (I don't normally use weapons but if I want to have a free Greater resto, +10% magic resistance and Immunity to Death Magic, I can use it)
    -Club of Detonation +5 (same as the previous weapon, I only use it on extremely rare occasions if I need fire damage to kill off specific enemies or in case +4 fists wouldn't be enough while +5 weapon would)

    Class/Kit Specific abilities:
    -1 Blur (+3 AC, long lasting buff)
    -1 Mirror Image
    -10 Frozen Fist (+2 cold dmg per hit for 1 turn)
    -1 Blind
    -1 Vampiric Touch (can push your max hp even higher)
    -1 Quivering Palm (not that fun but enemy has to save or die)

    Overall, as I said, I don't know how big of a deal LoB is and how insane the enemies are with all of your other mods. Still, in terms of defenses, high level DM Monk would still have some of the highest AC in the game, Immunity to poison, disease, slow/web and such effects. Crazy fast mobility to get out of harm's way. Stealth if this can be any useful to your playstyle. 25% resistance to physical damage (this might not be Monk related, I honestly can't remember where it came from) and basically 100%+ magic resistance unbuffed OR at MINIMUM (say you want to use Ring of Gaxx on someone else and don't have Cloak of Balduran) 77% to still be immune or almost immune to almost any spells coming his way. Has access to a few utility weapons if needed. If for some reason, a spell does manage to go through his magic resistance (or if the spell isn't affected by it), he still has crazy good saving throws.

    So the only real weakness the high level DM Monk has defensive wise would be vs super high THAC0 physical damage dealer since casters aren't too dangerous with such an insanely high Magic Resistances + great saving throws. Even then, you'd still have plenty of extra Hardiness that you could pop. All of what I wrote is "unbuffed" so you can push those stats further with potions and spells.

    If all of this still isn't enough for him to survive your mods+LoB, then I guess the only thing that can would be mage variations stacking defensive spells like stoneskin and such. I would say from my point of view when I played him (Core Rules, BG1 EE/SoD/BG2 EE/ToB, unmodded aside from the Unofficial Item Pack), the biggest weakness wasn't the Defense but rather the Offense. He was kind of useless damage wise against spell casters until an other party member could strip their combat defenses. Also, late game having to reactivate GWWs several times and sometimes Frozen Fist if I wanted the extra 20 cold dmg (from 10 GWW attacks) per round was a bit annoying at times. I think it's one of the strongest melees at high level (good damage, insane defenses vs magic and several immunities coupled with great AC) but maybe not the most exciting class/kit to play as it's basically a magic resistant fighter. I guess an other weakness would be that enemies can land crits vs him if lucky (unless there are other headpieces that he can use that can protect him from those, I can't remember).


    Edit: I checked and he is indeed immune to Disease. I also forgot that he also is immune to non-magic weapons at lvl 20+ but I think most enemies will have magic weapons by then so this one might be irrelevant.


  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Believe me, I am well aware of how Monks work :P

    The problem is that my mod setup significantly ramps up difficulty. Enemy THAC0s are insane, particularly in ToB, and they tear through -15 AC and lower like butter. The double damage from difficulty also means any hit that goes through will chunk you heavily. Getting hit for 40-50 damage or more in one hit is not uncommon against big enemies like golems etc. and the SCS scripts know to prefer unprotected targets.

    I've tried. Items, external buffs, all the things. You just get pounded on by everything and everyone in no time flat.

    But anyway, this is really not part of this thread, just a side rant.

    Neogorgonzola
  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 112
    I see, yea if AC and Hardiness+base physical damage resistance aren't enough (or you keep losing large chunks of health despite it), you're right that a Monk won't be good with your setup (I guess only caster defenses are enough to completely mitigate this).

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    edited December 2019
    I'll figure it out one of these days. I'm not giving up.

    Neo
  • NeoNeo Member Posts: 112
    BTW, unrelated but do you have any idea of what might have given my Monk +25% resistance to all 4 physical types? I'm pretty certain that it isn't related to BG1 nor SoD. I checked my end game ToB save with my Sorcerer and he also has this resistance. I didn't clear past the 1st WK level with the Sorcerer so it can't be Lum buffs. The only thing I could think of would be SoA ending buffs (and I think my sorcerer was "Good" alignment while the Monk was "Evil" which are supposed to get different bonuses). I had no mod installed aside from the weapons one and still that was only on the 2nd playthrough. Otherwise, I installed Ascension but haven't played with it yet and I don't think that it would affect old saves like that (I also think it only affects the story).

    I'm mostly trying to remember what gave me this buff because my main right now is the Stalker but one of my 4 other generated characters that I made and planned on having around for the whole series is a Berserker and I planned on having him use the flail that gives extra physical resistances (on top of his class specific ones), adding an other flat 25% could be significant, especially if I were to add hardiness on top of it late game (maybe overkill).

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,164
    edited December 2019
    Neo wrote: »
    I think my sorcerer was "Good" alignment while the Monk was "Evil" which are supposed to get different bonuses
    the soa end bonuses are related to the choices you make there, not to charname alignment.
    the consequence of the choices can be that the alignment changes, but only in one possible direction, so the neutral and good ones can become evil, but the evil one has not chance of "redemption" (aka is free to chose what he wants without any consequence).
    but this is an other thing, the bonuses are only choice related.

    Neo
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,713
    Neo wrote: »
    BTW, unrelated but do you have any idea of what might have given my Monk +25% resistance to all 4 physical types? I'm pretty certain that it isn't related to BG1 nor SoD. I checked my end game ToB save with my Sorcerer and he also has this resistance. I didn't clear past the 1st WK level with the Sorcerer so it can't be Lum buffs. The only thing I could think of would be SoA ending buffs (and I think my sorcerer was "Good" alignment while the Monk was "Evil" which are supposed to get different bonuses). I had no mod installed aside from the weapons one and still that was only on the 2nd playthrough. Otherwise, I installed Ascension but haven't played with it yet and I don't think that it would affect old saves like that (I also think it only affects the story).

    I'm mostly trying to remember what gave me this buff because my main right now is the Stalker but one of my 4 other generated characters that I made and planned on having around for the whole series is a Berserker and I planned on having him use the flail that gives extra physical resistances (on top of his class specific ones), adding an other flat 25% could be significant, especially if I were to add hardiness on top of it late game (maybe overkill).

    The Ascension mod introduces new bonuses to the PC in ToB (or, actually, it implements the bonuses that were originally intended by designers) - and one of those bonuses is physical resistance (see here for details of those bonuses). Whether you get that or not depends on whether you're deemed to have taken the good or evil route (same sort of idea as with the hell bonuses).

    By the way, I agree with you that the monk is a strong character at high levels in the unmodded game, even in LoB. Any monk can get over 100% MR (with the help of +10% hell bonus and wearing ring of Gaxx & the necklace you're given at the start of ToB). Stealth allows you to pick & choose opponents and rest easily, while quivering palm can insta-kill a lot of enemies (and the standard monk also has multiple stunning blows available). Some fights can take a lot longer, but the dragons and Mel (and Balthazar if you're not cautious against him) are about the only opponents that should stand a chance against the combination of stealth, mobility and magic resistance monks have. Mods can of course drastically change the odds though.

    gorgonzolaNeo
  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 770
    Something that hasn't been brought up as much is the general strength of Duals vs their respective Multis. Duals generally peak during mid SoA, and the original class/kit bonuses slowly fade in strength, while Multis peak after 3m experience, when both classes HLAs are available. Also, Mages in particular take a looooong time for the multi to fully overtake the dual class.

    For example, by 500k experience, a Berserker 9/Mage 10 has grandmastery in one weapon, 2.5 APR without buffs or dual wielding, THAC0 of 9 disregarding STR and item bonuses (12 THAC0 normally with a -3 bonus for GM). By comparison, a F/M multi can only have Specialization at this point, so has only 2 APR with a THAC0 of 11. I'm not even going to take into account the crazy Berserker kit bonuses, this is dual-favored by an insane amount.

    So that's at 500k experience. At 1.5m experience, probably around Spellhold or the first Bodhi encounter or so if you're not cheesing experience, the dual's at Berserker 9/Mage 13 and the multi's at Fighter 11/Mage 12. It's a bit closer here, but still dual favored: the THAC0s are now equal, but the dual has an additional half APR, 3 damage per hit (GM vs Specialization), kit bonuses, and 4 extra spells from the level. It's not enough to be up a full spell level though. The F/M multi has... nothing over the dual at this point, I think.

    2.5m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 16 vs Fighter 13/Mage 13. Now the multi finally equalizes and pulls slightly ahead in terms of being a fighter, but is slowly losing ground in the mage compartment. The Dual still has 9 THAC0, and the multi has 7 THAC0. The level 13 APR bonus means both are at 2.5 APR now. The multi is still down 3 damage per hit, kit bonuses, but at least it FINALLY has an advantage in terms of THAC0. The downside, of course, is that the dual has level 8 spellslots while the multi is down 2 levels and only has level 6 spells. This is... pretty major.

    3m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 17 vs Fighter 14/Mage 14. HLAs come into play, and it's decisively multi-favored in terms of combat for a bit: Whirlwind or any other Fighter HLA utterly destroy the numbers that can come out of the dual right now. The multi has level 7 spells; the dual only gets more spells, not another spell level. The differences are diverging a little now: the multi is now a better Fighter, while the dual is a better Mage.

    3.25m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 18 vs Fighter 14/Mage 14. I only mention this because the dual gets 9th level spells here. The only additional power the dual gets is more HLAs 9ths and more spell slots.

    4.5m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 21 vs Fighter 17/Mage 16. The dual has hit the caster level cap, with 2 level 9 spells and 4 HLAs. The Multi achieves level 8 spells for the first time and has 7 HLAs, probably all Fighter oriented.

    6m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 25 vs Fighter 20/Mage 18. The multi FINALLY gets a level 9th slot; the dual has 3 level 9 spells. The multi has hit the THAC0 cap, and has 12 HLAs now. The multi only hits the caster level cap at nearly 8m experience.

    So tldr; specifically for F/M duals vs multis but realistically for any non-caster to caster dual/multi, the dual is a stronger or equal fighter until 3m experience or so, and remains a stronger caster throughout. The multi overshadows the dual in fighting at level 3m experience by a large margin, but you miss out on the brokenness of level 9 HLAs/spells like Improved Alacrity, Wish, Spellstrike, and Comet/Dragon's Breath until 6 million experience, and even then only gets to cast once vs 3 times.


    Neogorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,164
    edited December 2019
    Neverused wrote: »
    Duals generally peak during mid SoA, and the original class/kit bonuses slowly fade in strength, while Multis peak after 3m experience, when both classes HLAs are available.
    i don't agree with what you tell, let me explain why.
    Neverused wrote: »
    3.25m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 18 vs Fighter 14/Mage 14. I only mention this because the dual gets 9th level spells here. The only additional power the dual gets is more HLAs 9ths and more spell slots.
    the multi start to get hla, the dual gets improved alacrity, he has also 3 lev7 (PI) spells.
    this mean that he can slain 4 dragons or other bosses/day without any problem, as long as he wears RoV and AoP. he can do it without taking his sword out of the scabbard, with spells only, whether he lowers the resistance, gm the foe and kill it with an instantly cast barrage of lev 1,2 and 3 spells or he spams flesh to stone, feeblemind or other spells that grant victory by instant death or disabling the foe.
    Neverused wrote: »
    4.5m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 21 vs Fighter 17/Mage 16. The dual has hit the caster level cap, with 2 level 9 spells and 4 HLAs. The Multi achieves level 8 spells for the first time and has 7 HLAs, probably all Fighter oriented.
    now the dual has 2 lev 9 spells, IA and spell trap.
    this mean that he has infinite spells at will, if he wants he can unleash a PI and a whole spell book only to fight a couple of kobolds. the spell trap will recharge his PI.
    from this point over he can basically solo the whole game without even resting once, if not for plot reasons.
    Neverused wrote: »
    6m experience: Berserker 9/Mage 25 vs Fighter 20/Mage 18. The multi FINALLY gets a level 9th slot; the dual has 3 level 9 spells. The multi has hit the THAC0 cap, and has 12 HLAs now. The multi only hits the caster level cap at nearly 8m experience.
    the dual has 3 lev 9 spells, 4 lev 8 and 5 lev 7 ones, if he wants he can throw away his sword, going full magic is so more effective, and now he can even perform the power version of the spell trap infinite spells tactic, that is still possible in EE, even if less effective then in the original game.
    this mean to win every fight for free, without loosing spells (ok, in ee a single lev 1 spell is lost, but can be recharged for free), without any previous preparation but the choice of the spells memorized.

    in LoB mode it can be different, as the enemies get insane hp and st boost, but other way there is no comparison between the power of an high level mage and what a multi can do, he has really to reach lev cap to try to match the power of the dual.

    still to play multi is a lot of fun, as it can be a lot of fun to play a very early dual, as the topic here is
    "dual class possible combinations and vs multi"
    not "the most powerful builds possible in the game".

    nothing (but maybe wild mage, CM and sorcerer) compares to the power of a F9->M. still there are dual and multi builds that is actually fun to play and have their own power and advantages, so in this thread are at home, even if they are not the most powerful possible.

    Neo
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 737
    Thats why i like better single classes. Everybody know one thing the best :)
    Its not a powergamer play style.
    And i like early duals for mage3 /fighters and fighter 3/ druids. I know its inferior etc, but i dont like the dualclass mechanism of inactive class period, and the mage 3/fighter was an interesting character in bg1 with familiar, wands etc.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,164
    @Danacm, you like single classes, characters specialized in only one role, i like the most versatile characters i can have, i like CM, FMT, blade, many other multi and dual builds because i can use them in many ways, without being tied to a limited number of tactics to beat an enemy.

    somehow we are at the opposite sides of the spectrum, but still we share a thing, we prioritize the way each one of us likes to play, and to do it, to fully express our play styles, we are not going to the most powerful options, we are going to the options we like more to play.

    also going for the most possible power is to express a personal play style, and this is fine, but only as long as it is the way that player is having fun playing, not when it is passed as the "right" way only because it is the most powerful one.

    Danacm
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    The goal when providing information is to be as objective as possible. People ask questions in forums because they don't know everything, and so providing them with unbiased answers tends to be most useful.

    The next step, however, is taking that (objective) information and making your own personal (subjective) choice. That choice doesn't have to follow the optimal path, not at all. You can make whatever choice you like. But you can only really make a choice if you're informed, and you know what there is to actually choose from. That's the value of information: informing people before they make their own choice, whichever direction that choice may end up going.

    If you personally enjoy dualing at lvl 2 or 3 - that is totally fine, and nobody can tell you what you should and should not like. But your preference doesn't change the facts. Dualing at lvl 9 would still be BETTER - it's just that nothing says you have to take the better route if you don't want to. And that's 100% okay.

    DanacmNeogorgonzola
  • SouplesseSouplesse Member Posts: 108
    @Lord_Tansheron,
    Very sorry to bother you but, (maybe I misread) in older posts (older by years) you said that you always dual fighter at 13 for the extra 0,5 apr. like it was mandatory. Can you explain me why (if you did) you change your mind about it ?
    Thanks

    gorgonzola
  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 737
    @gorgonzola i had parties like yours, FMT, MT, FMC etc. Solo/party with them, and to be true i liked that way for a while.
    After i tried single classed parties, and my hadcanon, the specialist party, bounty hunters on route etc what is the most fun for me. Thats the way i like to play iwdee as well.
    I liked vanilla fighter or kensai, archer, sorcerer, bard, druid and every other class, all of them, even wizard slayer has some fun.

    gorgonzola
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    edited December 2019
    Souplesse wrote: »
    @Lord_Tansheron,
    Very sorry to bother you but, (maybe I misread) in older posts (older by years) you said that you always dual fighter at 13 for the extra 0,5 apr. like it was mandatory. Can you explain me why (if you did) you change your mind about it ?
    Thanks
    Two things at play there. One is that everyone starts out underinformed, and changes as they gain more information. The second is that my mod setup changed DRAMATICALLY over the years, especially with the addition of proper LoB mode, and the Item/Spell Revisions mods.

    In particular, I used to run with a very different approach: smaller parties, very endgame focused. Most of SoA could just be brute-forced because without LoB you can knock over stuff before it becomes a problem. But when every little critter has 100+ HP that's a very different story, especially with pure casters.

    My setup is evolving constantly. I frequently try out new things and revisit old wisdom just to see if it still holds true. And anything I report on my own setup only holds true in that context, and doesn't transfer arbitrarily to other setups.

    SouplesseNeogorgonzola
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