Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

How to kill Tapanasacar from TDD mod?

My highest level party member is level 17 and it seems like dispel magic never work to remove his protection...

Comments

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 860
    I remember the fight. Done it 4-5 times.

    Cheated every damn time - he rebuffs his protection from magical weapons/mantle all time.. Ended up ctrl + r on his Sprite to debuff him, but usually just ctrl + y him - declaring me the righteous winner. Like to hear if any fought him without cheating.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    i don't know that mod but if the character is not immune to normal weapons it is possible to attack him with non enchanted weapons or enchanted ranged weapons using non enchanted ammo while he is protected by PFMW an with weapons with enough enchantment, like the staff of rynn or the sling of everard when he is protected by mantle.
    also maybe there are ways to avoid that he cast again his protections, ways like using aoe spells that have a poison or elemental effect, even if pfmw and mantle have a very short casting time it is possible that he is disrupted, the casting time is 1, not 0.

    as i told i don't know that battle, but usually there is always a workaround, ie in the battle with the acid kensai with tactics mod he has an infinite supply of pfmw scrolls and keeps to cast stoneskin, but it is possible both to attack him with not enchanted ranged ammo launched by a weapon that add elemental damage or with enough attacks with normal weapons to consume his stone skins in less then 1 round.

    maybe also time stop can help in this battle.
    "wait, the op told that his level is 17, you need a lev 18 mage to do it"
    nope, limited wish let you cast TS, even if only one time in the whole game.
    it also allow you to summon 5 vampires, and this can be done how many times you want, and as long as the one that cast the limited wish drink a potion and fly away fast the vampires attack whoever is close to them.
    having not fought the battle i can not tell what to do, but imho before ctrl r and ctrl y there are a lot of other ways to explore.
    i can not believe that a modder make an enemy impossible to beat, some mod enemies are very tricky and need not conventional approaches, but an invincible one has no sense, some weak spot should exist.
    and find it is the difficult, but fun part.

  • marcnivarmarcnivar Member Posts: 27
    edited March 10
    Just some screenshots to show what this dragon did in 2 seconds:

    4r0r2utkws1z.jpg
    52qsn19brwqq.jpg
    48y1on2i1g9c.jpg
    9t624w5z878w.jpg
    i4r02swsc6fb.jpg

    But the main problem is I can't remove its protection as it will automatically rebuff few things once the protections expired...Additionally, the player is not allowed to leave this area and come back after getting stronger...

    I also found that it has permanent protection from spells effect using NearInfinity.


    ---

    A video from someone claimed he tried for 8 hours then finally won with console kill cheat...





    Post edited by marcnivar on
    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    edited March 10
    now i can tell a little more about the battle, at least i know that is a dragon, so is not immune to normal weapons, and the way he buffs, he clearly ignores the 1 spell/round limit, but i don't know if he cast the spells by scripts, so is impossible to interrupt him if the script is of the reallyforcespell type, or he has a permanent improved alacrity on, so is possible to interrupt the casting, ie using an elemental aoe he is not immune at (cloud kill, firestorm?).

    only a few tips, a toon should never be hit by a wing buffet, summons are there for that, and it is usually possible to time the buffets, with a hasted party to have the dragon target a summon and the toons away from the angle the buffet works is usually not a problem with good tactics and positioning.
    also pfmw and stoneskin are used, a party with enough apr should be able to carve trough the skins using high apr normal weapons, ie the mages using not enchanted darts and the mlee ones switching to not enchanted weapons.

    high mobility and proper tactics can make battles like this a lot easier, the toons and summons, hasted, should dance around the dragon, as soon as someone is targeted there is no sense to keep him still attacking without making damage, use it to your advantage to move the dragon around as you relocate the other toons and summons, spread the summons and toons around him, so few are thrown away by the buffets, and have them constantly attack and retreat depending if the dragon is targeting other ones or them, use high enchantment weapons or normal ones depending if the dragon is using pfmw or a mantle type spell.
    also the dragon uses minor spell turning, but it protects from up to lev 4 spells, breach is lev 5. he uses protection from energy, so energy based spells are not effective, no use in casting MM, skull trap or ADHW, but elemental damage based spells and poison based ones, both targeting him and as aoe ones, can be used. if he is not immune to acid MMA will disrupt him for 2 rounds, and is only an example.

    and you have mages, SI abjuration makes them immune to his remove magic, they can protect themselves from his attacks and buffet (but are still thrown away by it), use it at your advantage. only the protected mage should be in the aoe of a remove magic, and SI enchantment make him immune to greater malison, he has to suck it, not valygar...

    it seems to me a very tactical battle, but far from being impossible.
    at least at a level where you have lev 17 party members, a mage with just a level more would had make it a lot easier: PI, improved alacrity from the clone wearing RoV and AoP and let's start with the fire works... :D .
    but as i told i never fought it so i can be completely wrong about it.

    edit: i had watched part of the yt video, is seems that even with the insect spell on the dragon is casting his protections without problem, so my suspicion about reallyforcespell script was correct, still it is imho an example of how not to fight a battle like that, mages that are not using SI, no control at all on who is targeted by the dragon or his helper, no mobility, summons wasted to attack him as he is immune to their attacks instead as used to have him turn in the direction you want him pointed at (to control who is affected by his buffets and aoe spells.
    the first thing to do in a battle like that is to have the dragon at the center of the area, leave him at a corner is to give to him a huge advantage, and he follows who he target, so it can be done.
    his helper can be annoying but to keep the dragon occupied with few summons, sent one by one, as the party quickly kill the golem, right at the beginning of the battle, when he is still in a corner, should not be a problem.
    then it is only a problem of dancing around him, having him targeting who you want, expendable summons or protected mages.
    the player in the video left to the dragon the initiative 99% of the time, had almost no tactical control on the battlefield and on who is targeted by the dragon.
    to win this kind of battles without chease or cheats like ctrl k the party should have the tactical control.
    by the way to have a mage well protected, but also using a fireshield whose damage the dragon is not immune to, or both if it is the case, and some insect spells stacked, maybe also some aoe ones, can be a help in lowering the dragon hp. so when you finally manage to breach him or carve trough his stoneskin with normal weapons is more likely that you succeed in killing him fast before he buffs again.
    the PI of the mages, protected also by si divination, work also very well for tanking and driving the dragon's attention, they can not physically attack, but just casting spells, even if are absorbed by his protections, or damaging him with the fireshields should work in having him target them instead of your fighters.

    it is a battle for quite advanced players, or that has to be fought at higher levels by the ones less advanced, but if done in the proper way it should be really fun to play it, i will probably will give a try to the mod, as this is exactly the kind of battles that i like.
    (then is possible that also i will come here to whine how impossible the battle is, you never know before you actually try...).

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
    marcnivarStummvonBordwehr
  • marcnivarmarcnivar Member Posts: 27
    edited March 10
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    now i can tell a little more about the battle, at least i know that is a dragon, so is not immune to normal weapons, and the way he buffs, he clearly ignores the 1 spell/round limit, but i don't know if he cast the spells by scripts, so is impossible to interrupt him if the script is of the reallyforcespell type, or he has a permanent improved alacrity on, so is possible to interrupt the casting, ie using an elemental aoe he is not immune at (cloud kill, firestorm?).

    only a few tips, a toon should never be hit by a wing buffet, summons are there for that, and it is usually possible to time the buffets, with a hasted party to have the dragon target a summon and the toons away from the angle the buffet works is usually not a problem with good tactics and positioning.
    also pfmw and stoneskin are used, a party with enough apr should be able to carve trough the skins using high apr normal weapons, ie the mages using not enchanted darts and the mlee ones switching to not enchanted weapons.

    high mobility and proper tactics can make battles like this a lot easier, the toons and summons, hasted, should dance around the dragon, as soon as someone is targeted there is no sense to keep him still attacking without making damage, use it to your advantage to move the dragon around as you relocate the other toons and summons, spread the summons and toons around him, so few are thrown away by the buffets, and have them constantly attack and retreat depending if the dragon is targeting other ones or them, use high enchantment weapons or normal ones depending if the dragon is using pfmw or a mantle type spell.
    also the dragon uses minor spell turning, but it protects from up to lev 4 spells, breach is lev 5. he uses protection from energy, so energy based spells are not effective, no use in casting MM, skull trap or ADHW, but elemental damage based spells and poison based ones, both targeting him and as aoe ones, can be used. if he is not immune to acid MMA will disrupt him for 2 rounds, and is only an example.

    and you have mages, SI abjuration makes them immune to his remove magic, they can protect themselves from his attacks and buffet (but are still thrown away by it), use it at your advantage. only the protected mage should be in the aoe of a remove magic, and SI enchantment make him immune to greater malison, he has to suck it, not valygar...

    it seems to me a very tactical battle, but far from being impossible.
    at least at a level where you have lev 17 party members, a mage with just a level more would had make it a lot easier: PI, improved alacrity from the clone wearing RoV and AoP and let's start with the fire works... :D .
    but as i told i never fought it so i can be completely wrong about it.

    edit: i had watched part of the yt video, is seems that even with the insect spell on the dragon is casting his protections without problem, so my suspicion about reallyforcespell script was correct, still it is imho an example of how not to fight a battle like that, mages that are not using SI, no control at all on who is targeted by the dragon or his helper, no mobility, summons wasted to attack him as he is immune to their attacks instead as used to have him turn in the direction you want him pointed at (to control who is affected by his buffets and aoe spells.
    the first thing to do in a battle like that is to have the dragon at the center of the area, leave him at a corner is to give to him a huge advantage, and he follows who he target, so it can be done.
    his helper can be annoying but to keep the dragon occupied with few summons, sent one by one, as the party quickly kill the golem, right at the beginning of the battle, when he is still in a corner, should not be a problem.
    then it is only a problem of dancing around him, having him targeting who you want, expendable summons or protected mages.
    the player in the video left to the dragon the initiative 99% of the time, had almost no tactical control on the battlefield and on who is targeted by the dragon.
    to win this kind of battles without chease or cheats like ctrl k the party should have the tactical control.
    by the way to have a mage well protected, but also using a fireshield whose damage the dragon is not immune to, or both if it is the case, and some insect spells stacked, maybe also some aoe ones, can be a help in lowering the dragon hp. so when you finally manage to breach him or carve trough his stoneskin with normal weapons is more likely that you succeed in killing him fast before he buffs again.
    the PI of the mages, protected also by si divination, work also very well for tanking and driving the dragon's attention, they can not physically attack, but just casting spells, even if are absorbed by his protections, or damaging him with the fireshields should work in having him target them instead of your fighters.

    it is a battle for quite advanced players, or that has to be fought at higher levels by the ones less advanced, but if done in the proper way it should be really fun to play it, i will probably will give a try to the mod, as this is exactly the kind of battles that i like.
    (then is possible that also i will come here to whine how impossible the battle is, you never know before you actually try...).




    I tried some of the strategy you mentioned here previously (myself) but it didn’t work and I thought it was poor design of the mod....

    However, I learnt something I didn’t know from what you have written here...And... I kill it!!


    d500b0h09osu.jpeg


    I cheated to get non-magical weapon since I cannot go back to city. I used my berserker mage with spell immunity abjuration to solo him for awhile (distraction to take all his spell) and the other members killed the golem and join in later...

    I let nalia memorised 5 breach spells and removed his automatically rebuff protection for 4 times (fully healed each time As well !) and he finally went down...

    Thank you so much for explaining in such details...really appreciate it.

    I still have so much to learn :)




    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    edited March 10
    i am very happy that what i wrote helped you in killing him in the proper way, without resorting to cheats!
    and i don't see to give non magical weapons as a cheat, only as a lack of knowledge, as you can find them everywhere, looting them or buying them for cheap from every merchant.
    (my parties always carry non magical weapons with them and when a mage cast PFMW they start to laugh, even if before they complained about the not useful extra weight they had to carry, rp wise obviously, not in the actual game)

    we all have something to learn, to beat the vanilla game can be done without any finesse, but as soon as mods or self given auto limitations from the player (like not rolling super stats, non having maxed hp gain on level up, not using some OP items like some green scrolls, the SoTM, the RoV and the anti beholder shield) kick in we have to learn again the game, using better the tools we have, spells, weapons and items, and using more sound tactics.
    and this is one of the reasons why those games are so great, no matter how you are experienced you can always set the challenge at a level that has the right balance between being too difficult, so utterly frustrating, and too easy, so boring.

    i can imagine your satisfaction after finally prevailing, when you do it cheating or cheesing too much you are never really proud of it, but when you do it in the proper way, at least for me, is pure bliss, something i can not really feel beating the modern 3d games that are miles better as graphics but tactically so inferior.

    EDIT: i notice now that you had at the end of the battle 3 toons really near to death, anomen with a single hp, but you won with no casualties.
    well done!
    this makes the things even more satisfactory, you really feel that the battle has pushed you to your limit.

    StummvonBordwehrmarcnivar
  • marcnivarmarcnivar Member Posts: 27
    yes, quite satisfying, I guess I have to try scs some day...vanilla game has a lot of spells and items that I haven’t used before as I have no reason to use them. Not all mods have difficult battles. Perhaps increased difficulty may make me learn more of how great the battle system of bg is..

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    edited March 11
    the problem of scs is that it surely compels you to learn better the magic system, but that it also change it.
    to be competent in the vanilla magic system and be competent in the scs one are different things.

    if you don't want to change the magic system and become proficient in the vanilla one i suggest you to try tactics mod, its EE version is in a beta version and the definitive version maybe will never be released, but is playable.
    it compels you to become both a proficient magic user and a tactically sound player at the same time, if there is some strength in the way i play, and i am surely not the best bg player around, i owe it to that fantastic mod.
    is a mod where the enemies sometimes cheat, but some other times only use ai scripts that are much better written then the vanilla ones, where sometimes you have to face over leveled enemies, right in the initial bg2 dungeon you will find a lev 19 cleric that gates in a deva and a monk that uses quivering palm, and some battles the first times you try them seem to be impossible.

    playing it not only i had to learn how to play in a better way and use at best my tools, the spells are one of them, but backstab, potions, party positioning, items with charges are other examples, but i did learn a lot about how to use some classes seeing what the enemies do in the components where they don't blatantly cheat or are overpowered.

    i suggest to give to it a try, and feel free to put the difficulty slider to the easiest setting, to start it is more then enough challenging even with enemies that do reduced damage instead of double one and rolling every time the maximum damage yourself.

    you can find more about it here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41242/tactics-mod-bg2ee-compatibility-conversion-and-beta-test

    marcnivar
  • marcnivarmarcnivar Member Posts: 27
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    the problem of scs is that it surely compels you to learn better the magic system, but that it also change it.
    to be competent in the vanilla magic system and be competent in the scs one are different things.

    if you don't want to change the magic system and become proficient in the vanilla one i suggest you to try tactics mod, its EE version is in a beta version and the definitive version maybe will never be released, but is playable.
    it compels you to become both a proficient magic user and a tactically sound player at the same time, if there is some strength in the way i play, and i am surely not the best bg player around, i owe it to that fantastic mod.
    is a mod where the enemies sometimes cheat, but some other times only use ai scripts that are much better written then the vanilla ones, where sometimes you have to face over leveled enemies, right in the initial bg2 dungeon you will find a lev 19 cleric that gates in a deva and a monk that uses quivering palm, and some battles the first times you try them seem to be impossible.

    playing it not only i had to learn how to play in a better way and use at best my tools, the spells are one of them, but backstab, potions, party positioning, items with charges are other examples, but i did learn a lot about how to use some classes seeing what the enemies do in the components where they don't blatantly cheat or are overpowered.

    i suggest to give to it a try, and feel free to put the difficulty slider to the easiest setting, to start it is more then enough challenging even with enemies that do reduced damage instead of double one and rolling every time the maximum damage yourself.

    you can find more about it here:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41242/tactics-mod-bg2ee-compatibility-conversion-and-beta-test



    This mod indeed looks more interesting than scs For me as i prefer the original magic system. However, if I understand correctly, this mod is for bg2ee only. My next play through should be eet with multiple mega mod installed and I’m not sure whether this Mod is compatible with eet. I have plan to install scs as `I know the battle can be too easy if the game is heavily modded...

    Definitely worth trying Tactic mod some day but perhaps that will be few years later :)

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    edited March 12
    yes, tactics mod is for bg2 only, so it is maybe possible to play it with EET, or import in a game build with tactics installed the first soa eet save game, but it mean to play the previous games without any difficulty enhancing mods.

    in the old times, before EE, many people used to play tactics and scs together, but the scs version at that time was very different to the one we have now, i doubt that in EE is still possible.

    what maybe can work is to install only some components of tactics, not the ones that change the original quests and give to the enemies smarter tactics and casting, only the new quests that are included in tactics.
    i am talking of the red badge, the ritual, maybe the improved irenicus dungeon. i have not tested it but i suppose that they should work if you install them after scs and possibly even if you do before, even if the nature of those encounters does not really need the scs improvements, as you have to deal with monsters with unique cheesy capabilities or in the ritual regular warriors, druids and mages whose ai scripts are already very good.

    and please, please, before trying your scs eet run try at least the tactics chateau irenicus.
    it is only a dungeon so it will take you little time (if you are good at playing and you don't have to reload 10k times :D ).
    it is something that imo every player should try at least once in the life. there you don't find cheesy enemies, even if some monsters like the otyugh are way more powerful then the vanilla ones.
    the point of playing that dungeon is that instead of the usual goblins and low level enemies you find groups with mages and warriors, and every time you sleep a group is spawned next to the party, and those mages are way much smarter of the vanilla ones and the warriors hit hard. when you finally reach the ilich's group it is not him and few durgars, you find legittimate (not cheating too much) high level characters that act smart, constantly patrol the library area in groups of 2 or 3, if you try to isolate some of them you have to kill them fast or they will call the others for help.
    this while if you, starting from bg2 so at 89kxp lack of good equipment, powerful spells and even ranged ammo, so you can not use the kite and hit with ranged tactics if not as an exceptional resource as you other way will deplete the few ammo you can get.

    playing that dungeon only really improves your tactical capabilities as only good tactics, not powerful high level spells or equipment, can allow you to prevail over so overpowered enemies.

    i promise, if you do it now your bg experience and perspective about how to play the game will be changed forever, at least it was so for me.

    StummvonBordwehrmarcnivar
  • marcnivarmarcnivar Member Posts: 27
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    yes, tactics mod is for bg2 only, so it is maybe possible to play it with EET, or import in a game build with tactics installed the first soa eet save game, but it mean to play the previous games without any difficulty enhancing mods.

    in the old times, before EE, many people used to play tactics and scs together, but the scs version at that time was very different to the one we have now, i doubt that in EE is still possible.

    what maybe can work is to install only some components of tactics, not the ones that change the original quests and give to the enemies smarter tactics and casting, only the new quests that are included in tactics.
    i am talking of the red badge, the ritual, maybe the improved irenicus dungeon. i have not tested it but i suppose that they should work if you install them after scs and possibly even if you do before, even if the nature of those encounters does not really need the scs improvements, as you have to deal with monsters with unique cheesy capabilities or in the ritual regular warriors, druids and mages whose ai scripts are already very good.

    and please, please, before trying your scs eet run try at least the tactics chateau irenicus.
    it is only a dungeon so it will take you little time (if you are good at playing and you don't have to reload 10k times :D ).
    it is something that imo every player should try at least once in the life. there you don't find cheesy enemies, even if some monsters like the otyugh are way more powerful then the vanilla ones.
    the point of playing that dungeon is that instead of the usual goblins and low level enemies you find groups with mages and warriors, and every time you sleep a group is spawned next to the party, and those mages are way much smarter of the vanilla ones and the warriors hit hard. when you finally reach the ilich's group it is not him and few durgars, you find legittimate (not cheating too much) high level characters that act smart, constantly patrol the library area in groups of 2 or 3, if you try to isolate some of them you have to kill them fast or they will call the others for help.
    this while if you, starting from bg2 so at 89kxp lack of good equipment, powerful spells and even ranged ammo, so you can not use the kite and hit with ranged tactics if not as an exceptional resource as you other way will deplete the few ammo you can get.

    playing that dungeon only really improves your tactical capabilities as only good tactics, not powerful high level spells or equipment, can allow you to prevail over so overpowered enemies.

    i promise, if you do it now your bg experience and perspective about how to play the game will be changed forever, at least it was so for me.

    Hi I’m using this thread to ask this question. I noticed that the elder orb and some enemies in underdark may dispel my mage buffs but I had spell immunity abjuration. I thought can protect from dispel magic and remove magic?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,578
    is better that some one with more knowledge then me gives an answer.
    i suppose that the anti magic ray from some beholders is a natural ability of the creature, so a spell cast at lev 0, and that si is not effective to block it for that reason. but i am only guessing.
    in vanilla it protects from the normal RM and DM that the mages cast.
    but i am only guessing.

Sign In or Register to comment.