Sword & Board vs Dual-Wielding (Improved or not) vs Two-Handed + Great Cleave vs Whirlwind vs none
chevalier
Member Posts: 51
Caveat: considering the STR-based full-BAB perspective here, notably paladin, as that's what I usually play.
There must have been many analyses of the titular range of problems by now, but what I'm after isn't necessarily that.
I certainly have use for hard maths, but it doesn't cover use scenarios. And I would be grateful for some experience-based answers from people who simply talk from experience based on usage scenarios and have the ability to keep this simple — I'd like to avoid hairsplitting and control the length/complexity of it if possible.
So, my own recent experience is that non-Improved Dual-Wielding is hardly better than sword & board; it's actually worse. There are two scenarios in which DW wins out: (1) weapons with stat bonuses, immunities, etc. (e.g. Haste on one, Freedom on the other, so you save a ring slot and a boot slot); (2) skill checks/spell failure.
On the other hand, Ambidex + TWF requires 13+ DEX and two feat slots, which is steep for something like a paladin. The best scenario is -2/-2 with a small weapon that has low base dmg and 1/2 STR bonus. Consequently, I believe you're better off with WF => EWF. Ambidex +TWF from items isn't normally worth it considering what you could have instead. On top of it, shields can go up to 3+5 AC and still have some additional effects, more often than a weapon does.
Next, the more AB you have, the likelier is your second attack, at -5 to also hit — might as well invest in making your second attack likelier to hit. Simply not having your second and third and fourth attack miss is a good alternative to dual-wielding — and it achieves the same purpose, which is landing more hits on the enemy.
A single weapon that isn't small and off-hand means full STR bonus to damage, and also one set of WF/WS/IC (weapon-based feats) to care about, as well as only one piece of weapon needed (your best). And you also keep your shield for AC and for some additional effects, if it has any.
And if your AB is higher than needed for your second and later attacks to hit, which is very rare for the last attack, then you always have Power Attack. Power Attack is certainly better for overcoming damage resistance than a small off-hand weapon.
Hence, sword & boards wins.
Bottom line: I can't possibly justify dual wielding on a STR-based warrior type with no more than 14 DEX. Exceptions: Ranger with access to the improved version; some really good two-headed weapon.
Note: two-headed weapons are interesting for paladins especially, as it takes only one spell to improve both blades/heads. And the second head at least has a full 1d8, though the STR bonus is still halved.
Cleave
Early on Cleave means free attacks when you just have one attack per round or one that you can realistically hope to it. The feat certainly is useful, though non-Fighters have better alternatives and CoTs are already fairly high-level.
Great Cleave — not useless but highly situational. It does synergize well with the high-power and short-duration nature of paladin buffs.
In fact, my primary motivation for Cleave on a paladin is a roleplaying one, viz. the ability to save low-dice allies more easily, since his own survivability or broadly understood effectiveness in combat is not really reliant on it, while other feats can improve it better (WF for the landing the blows that really matter, Improved Crits for doing more damage and ultimately faster kills that really matter).
Realistically speaking, Cleave is probably more useful than Divine Might when your CHA bonus is still a measly +2 or +3, except for bosses.
Whirlwind
The usefulness of this one when surrounded is obvious (like 2–3 rounds of this instead of the usual Cleave routine), but there are many feat slots to sacrifice for it. Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are fairly unspectacular on their own, especially compared to Improved Crits or whatever else you could choose, even Blindfight or Toughness or whatever. Fighters and possibly CoTs could, however, run out of better choices eventually.
Now, Improved Whirlwind would be a different matter, but that's mostly for Rogues and Rogue-like fighters, given the DEX requirement.
Two-handed
Probably many characters' backup style for dealing with damage resistance. Obviously synergizes well with Cleave and Great Cleave, as well as requiring fewer rounds of Whirlwind. Again, if you have an overabundance of AB, you can always use PA for even more damage.
I'm a bit torn about 2H vs S&B on AC vs killing stuff faster. Your AC is lower with 2H, but dead mobs don't attack. Killing stuff faster reduces your need for AC, as it removes the threat source. The added bonus is that you dispose of casters faster with 2H, while a shield doesn't help you against them (except for SR shields).
The possibility of finding a spectacularly good 2H weapon and some STR-enhancing items (but Bull's Strength from potions and casts) is what puts me off from WF in a single-handed weapon type wearly on, though missing out on Improved Crits is more of a loss.
For a paladin, however, 2H is not necessarily a critical improvement to damage when buffed, due to how STR bonus and even base weapon damage are not the majority of the damage actually dealt. Still, they do matter and especially help you bring down evil casters fasters with 2 or 3 smites.
I guess this one is going to be situational.
***
All in all, I tend to think DW is lost on a warrior type with 13/14 DEX, with the small possible exception of double-headed weapons for a paladin — single Deafening Clang, Bless Weapon, (Greater) Magical Weapon and Holy Avenger for all attacks. Even in this case, S&B still wins, if not on its own merits, then at least due to the benefits of a shield and the saved feat slots that you can invest in something like Improved Crits or Toughness or Blindfight.
Someone correct me?
There must have been many analyses of the titular range of problems by now, but what I'm after isn't necessarily that.
I certainly have use for hard maths, but it doesn't cover use scenarios. And I would be grateful for some experience-based answers from people who simply talk from experience based on usage scenarios and have the ability to keep this simple — I'd like to avoid hairsplitting and control the length/complexity of it if possible.
So, my own recent experience is that non-Improved Dual-Wielding is hardly better than sword & board; it's actually worse. There are two scenarios in which DW wins out: (1) weapons with stat bonuses, immunities, etc. (e.g. Haste on one, Freedom on the other, so you save a ring slot and a boot slot); (2) skill checks/spell failure.
On the other hand, Ambidex + TWF requires 13+ DEX and two feat slots, which is steep for something like a paladin. The best scenario is -2/-2 with a small weapon that has low base dmg and 1/2 STR bonus. Consequently, I believe you're better off with WF => EWF. Ambidex +TWF from items isn't normally worth it considering what you could have instead. On top of it, shields can go up to 3+5 AC and still have some additional effects, more often than a weapon does.
Next, the more AB you have, the likelier is your second attack, at -5 to also hit — might as well invest in making your second attack likelier to hit. Simply not having your second and third and fourth attack miss is a good alternative to dual-wielding — and it achieves the same purpose, which is landing more hits on the enemy.
A single weapon that isn't small and off-hand means full STR bonus to damage, and also one set of WF/WS/IC (weapon-based feats) to care about, as well as only one piece of weapon needed (your best). And you also keep your shield for AC and for some additional effects, if it has any.
And if your AB is higher than needed for your second and later attacks to hit, which is very rare for the last attack, then you always have Power Attack. Power Attack is certainly better for overcoming damage resistance than a small off-hand weapon.
Hence, sword & boards wins.
Bottom line: I can't possibly justify dual wielding on a STR-based warrior type with no more than 14 DEX. Exceptions: Ranger with access to the improved version; some really good two-headed weapon.
Note: two-headed weapons are interesting for paladins especially, as it takes only one spell to improve both blades/heads. And the second head at least has a full 1d8, though the STR bonus is still halved.
Cleave
Early on Cleave means free attacks when you just have one attack per round or one that you can realistically hope to it. The feat certainly is useful, though non-Fighters have better alternatives and CoTs are already fairly high-level.
Great Cleave — not useless but highly situational. It does synergize well with the high-power and short-duration nature of paladin buffs.
In fact, my primary motivation for Cleave on a paladin is a roleplaying one, viz. the ability to save low-dice allies more easily, since his own survivability or broadly understood effectiveness in combat is not really reliant on it, while other feats can improve it better (WF for the landing the blows that really matter, Improved Crits for doing more damage and ultimately faster kills that really matter).
Realistically speaking, Cleave is probably more useful than Divine Might when your CHA bonus is still a measly +2 or +3, except for bosses.
Whirlwind
The usefulness of this one when surrounded is obvious (like 2–3 rounds of this instead of the usual Cleave routine), but there are many feat slots to sacrifice for it. Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack are fairly unspectacular on their own, especially compared to Improved Crits or whatever else you could choose, even Blindfight or Toughness or whatever. Fighters and possibly CoTs could, however, run out of better choices eventually.
Now, Improved Whirlwind would be a different matter, but that's mostly for Rogues and Rogue-like fighters, given the DEX requirement.
Two-handed
Probably many characters' backup style for dealing with damage resistance. Obviously synergizes well with Cleave and Great Cleave, as well as requiring fewer rounds of Whirlwind. Again, if you have an overabundance of AB, you can always use PA for even more damage.
I'm a bit torn about 2H vs S&B on AC vs killing stuff faster. Your AC is lower with 2H, but dead mobs don't attack. Killing stuff faster reduces your need for AC, as it removes the threat source. The added bonus is that you dispose of casters faster with 2H, while a shield doesn't help you against them (except for SR shields).
The possibility of finding a spectacularly good 2H weapon and some STR-enhancing items (but Bull's Strength from potions and casts) is what puts me off from WF in a single-handed weapon type wearly on, though missing out on Improved Crits is more of a loss.
For a paladin, however, 2H is not necessarily a critical improvement to damage when buffed, due to how STR bonus and even base weapon damage are not the majority of the damage actually dealt. Still, they do matter and especially help you bring down evil casters fasters with 2 or 3 smites.
I guess this one is going to be situational.
***
All in all, I tend to think DW is lost on a warrior type with 13/14 DEX, with the small possible exception of double-headed weapons for a paladin — single Deafening Clang, Bless Weapon, (Greater) Magical Weapon and Holy Avenger for all attacks. Even in this case, S&B still wins, if not on its own merits, then at least due to the benefits of a shield and the saved feat slots that you can invest in something like Improved Crits or Toughness or Blindfight.
Someone correct me?
0
Comments
Sure, against weaker creatures you can pulverize them faster with damage output and limit the number of incoming attacks, but really, it's the powerful ones and the high AB ranged mobs that you care about and they'll do you in much faster without a shield. Low AC characters spend more time running and healing which severely compromises their damage output.
Whirlwind attack is fun, but not practical. It's generally better to focus on defeating one enemy at a time than stretch out defeating all of them. Again, if they're easy, it's great. If they're hard, you want to focus on one to reduce their numbers ASAP.
2Handers are better for disarm checks. Woohoo!
Hide in Plain Sight/Epic Dodge can mitigate lower AC (usually for dual-wielders).
Dual-weapon characters are hard to do: the feats, the bad synergy between needing STR to hit and DEX for AC, the typically lackluster dual-weapon options!
I've thought about the relative powers of single weapon, dual-wielding, sword & board, dual-weapons, and 2Handers quite a bit. Mostly because it annoyed me how much better shields made a character - and damn it, I wanted to make unconventional characters that worked. Incidentally, a couple 2Hander builds I developed were built around Divine Shield to offset the lack of shield. However, being able to easily get at least +6CHA from items in the mod was really necessary to make them feasible.
In my own module I've done a few things to level the playing field. Y'know, blur the lines between which style is best.
1. 2Handed weapons can carry larger damage bonuses/higher OnHit DCs than other weapons.
2. Dual weapons and quarterstaffs automatically stack +2 deflection AC on top of your current deflection AC. They can carry small defensive/skill bonuses as well.
3. I limit shield AC bonuses to +3, while armor can get to +6, and tower shields usually have class requirements (Dwarven Defender)
4. The Parry skill increases your deflection AC (and what dual weapons add) by +1/15ish points.
Note: it's too bad that Parry doesn't allow you to parry up to your total number of attacks. If that were the case, I wouldn't add AC bonuses for points in Parry skill for dual-wielding/dual weapons.
Thank you. Didn't consider that, but it makes perfect sense and is perhaps the mirror twin of how killing stuff faster reduces your need for AC — correspondingly, not needing to heal so much, let alone run, means you deal more blows.
I forgot to describe Expertise as well, which is relevant in this context. Expertise does make you almost unhittable in single combat, but you're still going to be hit from time time on natural 20s from mobs surrounding you, even if you manage to out-AC their entire AB. (Verified on a level 3 character with +5 armour and shield from The Dark Ranger's Treasure.) But, you also hit them less, and so the fights take longer, and they get more opportunity to hit you.
Full-AB Sword & Board seems to sit somewhere in the middle.
I tend to see it this way: whatever focuses on one enemy at a time is good against both mobs (if not ideal) is also good vs bosses. And bosses generally matter more, unless you have severe rest restrictions and not much healing stuff.
It looks good, but the advantages seem to end there unless you're banned from shields, I think. Not sure about the utility of a buffed DW Fighter type (as in, not Rogue-style), but probably limited in line with my previous post.
Yeah. In a high-magic high-loot setting you sometimes end up with 30-ish AC very quickly and 40-ish fairly quickly, so with all those +5's you may actually want to ditch the shield and get something that generates damage instead. But those opportunities are fairly limited. Still, doable for paladins because of stacking Eagle's Splendour from multiple sources or at least Eagle's + Aura of Glory.
However, I normally tend to see Divine Shield as a bit of a waste of a feat and waste of a cast even — it removes 1 round from the duration of your n rounds per caster level and n rounds per stat bonus buffs.
I vaguely remember seeing some success with Parry on a paladin but can't be sure if that was NWN1 or NWN2. I think I stacked Improved Parry with Skill Focus: Parry. And then there's ESF, of course. Still, descending AB and only ever attempting to parry the first attack in a flurry, as well as not being allowed to parry a natural 20, makes Parry hardly reliable — by design it will leak quite a lot. Buffing your AB and turning Expertise on for a stright +5 AC and -5 AB tradeoff probably makes you better off. And you could still be better off not gimping your AB but instead just simply landing more blows from your secondary and later attacks (doing more additional damage than Power Attack would allow you).
Whirlwind sounds like it was made for dual wielding.
Shields are always the best option. It's kind of boring, really. Dual wielding is so feat intensive it should give you great flexibility between offense and defense. Like almost a shield level defnese and almost two handed power which you could switch between at will. Then it would have a reason to exist.
Just no.
First of all. Shields are a choice at all only in 1v1 combat. If you play sneaker, flanker, supporter you don't need a shield at all. Especially in NWN where AI is so stupid it keeps attacking the first person it seens no matter it is character they cannot hit at all or character they cannot damage at all. If you are not the one tanking the monsters you don't need shield.
Also, if you have a healer in party, you don't need shield either. Higher offense is better than defense since you have a buffer/healer who keeps you alive.
In soloplay, I agree shield is generally best choice however it depends highly on an environment.
1) Is there fast and free resting?
If you can rest without limits and resting doesn't take much time then the drawback for not using shield is not so high since you can just rest up and replenish your hitpoints.
2) Is there cheap and easy access to healing like potions or healer kits?
If you can buy enough potions or healer's kits for cheap or even free then again, you can just replenish your hitpoints after battle and continue.
3) Does the typical encounters consist of few monsters or many of them?
The more monsters (if they can actually hit you) are spawned the more advantageous shield is. Which means that if there are encounters of single or two monsters, you can usually handle them easily without one.
4) Are there strong weapons available?
Duel wielding is extremely overpowered on higher magic settings where you can have weapons like +6 enhancement +1d8 magic +1d8 sonic +1d8 electrical. The more base damage on weapon the more overpowered dual wielding is.
5) Are there strong defensive options other than AC?
Damage reductions, resistances, immunities, regeneration, vampiric regeneration and even immunities to sneak attack or critical hit. The more of these are available be it on items or from ruleset modifications, the more viable are shield-less builds.
In fact, the weakest option in vanilla NWN are two-handlers. That extra damage from strength is not worth the loss of AC from shield or loss of DPS from having offhand weapon. Two handlers are better than other options only if the module/server provides better stats for them or some ruleset changes or specifically designed npcs. (Btw you can get AB buff when spamming Improved Disarm on enemiest with smaller weapon.)
Either way the discussion is not so black and white. Keep in mind you can use different weapons in different situations. Even build without ambidex/twf can use offhand weapon if the monsters are easy to hit enough and they don't hit hard either. Or you face monsters immune to one type of damage or +X weapons - in these cases perhaps the only weapon that can damage/hit them would be twohandler you just found in last room. Etc. etc.
And last thing I mention is that 99% singleplayer modules are playable naked and it doesn't really matter what weapon you use. Afterall they are more about story than tactic/strategy especially when there are not much options for doing that in NWN.
Hahahahaha - because it's true
UBAB ITWF is the pinnacle of dual wielding (Kamas only).
This is one instance where it can really be a better option than 2H and 1h/Shield, since one can FoB and use UBAB to basically "absorb" the malus to AB here. Taking a Class that can tie down the Dodge AC as well can really make such a build formidable.
Note that Whirlwind Attack (and IWWA) prevents one from being flanked while using it (so just spam it when surrounded to avoid flanking attacks if one does not have a class that ties down Dodge, immunity to crits, sneaks, etc).
2H weapons really come into their own when using a weapon with a large crit range and multiplier (mercurial Greatsword comes to mind and WM). Seeing those big numbers splattered on the screen is surprisingly satisfying.
I've been going for 2HW (a warhammer, because I can't take the cleric out of me) + the various cleave feats, since the cleave attacks are free-if-you-get-a-kill and the early game is swamped with low HP enemies. I get that Sword-and-Board is better defensively (especially in 3rd edition rules where BAB/AC is actually an opposed check vs 2nd edition's personal skill check method), but the best defense is a good offense and not taking the chip damage in the first place from the swarm of low-level-mooks because they're already dead is preferable. Since, y'know, being swarmed also leaves you open to being flanked.
With that said, I subscribe to the Belhifet Method: I do one thing at a time, I do it very well, and then I move on. If I have a boss with some minions that give him a flank bonus, I take away his flank bonus. Cleave hits are just icing on the cake if I can land them.