NWN - EE or 1.69?
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NWN:EE Released or Not Released. Updated or Not Updated. The question is a simple one. I see far too many that constantly hark on Beamdog as a company. Not only on here but also on Steam. I certainly don't agree with how they've handled certain things, but the simple fact is without Beamdog NWN likely wouldn't have gotten any updates. Ever.
Hence this question under the guise of two past outcomes one with EE and one where it never released at all. - NWN Base Version 1.69 that wouldn't ever get updates of any kind OR updated NWN:EE that we now have and are very slowly improving.
Feel free to post why you voted the way you did if you wish to explain. Votes are Public.
Hence this question under the guise of two past outcomes one with EE and one where it never released at all. - NWN Base Version 1.69 that wouldn't ever get updates of any kind OR updated NWN:EE that we now have and are very slowly improving.
Feel free to post why you voted the way you did if you wish to explain. Votes are Public.
- NWN - EE or 1.69?30 votes
- NWN: 1.690.00%
- NWN: EE100.00%
Post edited by Ɲ????Ʀ???? on
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Incomplete Primer of Factual Things
Some of this would only be known by modders\scripters even though it directly affects players, there are many that aren't aware that it can and does in a big way. Both Single & Multiplayer. I'm referring to 64-bit, scripting, .2das, .hak, ResMan, NWsync and associated improvements that have happened & are happening behind the scenes.
I don't at all agree with how they've handled updates, the renderer, or the console and android releases. They should have handled all the Settings changes, Scripting, .2da & .hak changes, and unhardcoding before any releases to another platform and before any rendering work.
Unhardcoding and modding ability is where the big payout is in my opinion.
I have both EE and 1.69.
EE to support the developers and (until recently nerfed) play on both PC and Android.
1.69 for module development, for now, to be compatible with all players.
I also own both. I even have the prerelease toolset disk actually.
On the basis of the present you are correct. It is not an all or nothing choice. This poll is under the guise of two past outcomes one with EE and one where it never released at all. Sorry if I didn't articulate myself well. At times I have a tendency to over explain and I tried to avoid that.
Now edited to reflect this.
Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: Removed quote in case you wanted to edit post to explain or vote.
Population between either version still has more to do with events external to the development of NWN or custom content for NWN. That is the rise and fall of temporary population numbers are linked overwhelmingly to sales on digital stores, holiday seasons, and currently stay at home orders. Whereas 1.69 was previously a GOG exclusive, NWNEE is sold on pretty much every platform and the 1.69 version is just an extra exclusive to the GOG version of NWNEE.
Meanwhile you can continue to use both versions even though NWNEE has the marketing and sales support, including convenience infrastructure that lowers the bar of entry compared to the 1.69 version of NWN. If you want access to all options you must still have both versions installed.
When you put it like that it creates a very different question than "Do you want updates or not?"
One of the great things about EE is that it plays nice with new and newer OS's. However, those folks who jumped to EE hoping to still play it with their mediocre integrated graphics card were not going to get happy results. But I think the upgrades in graphics, new content, new interest, new players, improved pathfinding, unhardcoding certain aspects of the game engine (like RDDs and weapon feats) are more than worth the price of admission. I also think some of the community made custom content (like Zwerkules's tilesets, Real Skies, etc) truly shine with EE graphics.
But as Proleric mentioned, it's not a binary choice. I still run a 1.69 server and an EE server.
Yes but not the embedded code. So in that context it is not necessarily a false premise. Some of those tools only affect multiplayer or the modding community but not the guts of the game or base code. It doesn't affect entire player base in the same way and it doesn't have the same adoption rate either. NWN always had a good following for multiplayer, scripting, and the modding that is associated with it. This is not uncommon in many games where modding is allowed.
Those tools and the associated plugins didn't manifest themselves overnight and were born of necessity. I agree that there is a good argument to be made for the community made tools including the community patch, NWNX & NWNCX, NWShader, NWMax and similar tools or updates. Still, embedded code tends to work better than injection even if it isn't noticeable to the end user after being worked on for a long period of time to cut overhead or if its community fixes and workarounds for engine or hardcoded issues.
Also, we have been slowly regaining some of those same features. Hopefully at some point we will have all of those features again. Community patches, fixes, and workarounds can be made regardless of version.
Population is a much harder thing to gauge. Many reasons you've already explained quite well. Sales, season, opinions, holidays, time and other factors. There are some in that list that are measurable events. Sales on EE, advertising that wouldn't have happened without EE, Gamespy going down causing many players and servers to disappear altogether never to return. That last one will happen again in the future and we will be fanbase driven again.
Regardless of convenience, population, community involvement and other factors- the base of the each of the games code both 1.69 and EE is what it should be judged on. The multiplayer and modding community has always been great and would have went on regardless of if EE happened or not. Official embedded code and fixes tend to be better. One of them has been altered and one has not. When you judge each game on its base it actually is that simple.
Of course nobody is going to argue that NWN EE made more convenient for use and available on multiple platforms with lots of marketing and interest through sales is a bad thing. Strictly speaking however NWN EE is not the best of both worlds, many of the things still discussed today are no longer options with NWN EE. We're currently waiting over 2 years for options the community had started making available about 10 years ago.
If the question was instead if it would have been better if they used those tools, standardized them and integrated them, then compare the two versions with equal support in marketing and sales... Then undoubtedly this improved hypothetical 1.69 version would have done a lot better. Simply because the existing community would have been fully onboard and the front line of the modding community wouldn't have been forced two steps back to take one step forward. More options would have been available from the start and more large scale servers would be available for players to choose.
You can't quite convey that with the question as posed, which is sort of ignoring all of the important details, and doesn't adequately represent a comparison on the technical merits alone.
Just opinion but I do think you're right that NWN:EE isn't the best of both worlds. However, we can't bring time into this discussion without also comparing the time it took for those options to exist in the first place versus when the game originally released. And when you do compare the time between them, EE is still ahead because of the amount of time spent on the original for 1.69 to exist as we see it today and with EE working with and changing specific parts of a preexisting code base that has years of code in it and multiple parts of it that make up a whole. NWN released in 2002.
Yes its been 2 years and we still don't have options that we had previously, but lets take a look at NWNX for an example in relation to the time it took to exist as we see it today. It originally released in 2003 but not with everything you see today there was very little back then, only a couple of plugins if memory serves. Between 2003 and 2008, the main developer of NWNX was Papillon. In 2008, virusman took over the project lead. I know virusman frequents these forums and I can't say for certain but I remember seeing Papillon around here somewhere as well. Both certainly legends for all their years of work on NWNX. Even with the examples cited from those pages you can see that it wasn't a short span of time and development continues after 2008.
Community tools can be remade even if it isn't overnight and the argument can be made that with EE it could happen faster than with the original game for no other reason than the adoption rate of the internet versus now and then.
It would have been a grand 1.69 version, but it is difficult to integrate community made anything into a retail product for many reasons. None of those reasons are based solely on the desire to do so.
The poll and question are merely my own curiosity and desire to promote discussion. The question is intentionally simple. It's a "what if" question, as in, what if you could go back in time and choose two possible futures, would you change what has happened to this point? 1.69 exists in both futures but EE exists in 1.
Most of the extra details only cloud the issue. On technical merits alone, no the question doesn't. On what the majority of end users see when they play, namely those that only play single player with no extra frills and only .mods downloaded from the vault or steam if they even do that, the question is valid.
The time is also a fair criticism since Beamdog has chosen to prioritize other things while having a community advisory group and community members helping them. One can only conclude that they did not prioritize implementing functionality achieved with those tools. Many of the updates make some progress but leave things unfinished here and there leading to custom content rough around the edges or simply not working well or having many options.
They might get there eventually but right now it seems most are just waiting for this nebulous renderer. Who knows if anyone will be around to create serious content for it when it does arrive.
As for the most casual customers I'm not sure it matters because only invested individuals take the time to comment and discuss. That said there is something to be said for compatibility support, sales on multiple stores, increased resolution, and various convenience features. That is important but I wouldn't quite call that technical merits.
Yes quite true. It isn't necessarily a fair comparison of either given the amount of community involvement over the years and other factors, especially with one being an evolution of the other. Comparing them is quite complicated if you try to take in everything, but it doesn't have to be complicated or fair to be thought provoking.
I'm in the same boat. I wish they had implemented much of it right out of the gate but I certainly don't want anything that's a half finished wreck and causes problems. But that's also one of the biggest merits of this game. That being the community can likely fix it in some way if there isn't any other way to get the job done.
I think the renderer would have been a better last blowout addition, but apparently there were enough end users who thought graphics and achievements for single player were more important. I do enjoy what we've seen of the updated models and tilesets, but if all I wanted was great graphics there are other games to play.
It's a mixed bag. We can all only buckle up and be along for the ride. Lets hope we all come out the other side of said ride ahead of the game. The updates have ramped up a bit in spurts as of late. I personally hope it continues. In the end, I think we will come out ahead.