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Multi and Dual class Bards are Apparently Legal (and Ripe for Implementation)

ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
So I was reading through the AD&D2E Complete Bard’s Handbook (which I acquired legally. You can be sure of that), and I came across this section:

“Multi-Classed Bards:
“As noted in Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook under the discussion of multi-class
benefits and restrictions, no multi-classed bards combination were listed. Now that this
book is out, it is time to introduce bard multi-class combinations. Note that multi-class
options are not open to human characters.
“All of the standard demihuman races and their allowable bard multi-classes are listed
below. For added flavor, multi-class combinations have been defined for specific kits. If
the kits are not used in your campaign, only those combinations that include the True
Bard can be used.
“Entries such as "Fighter/Chanter * Skald" are a shorthand way of saying
"Fighter/Chanter or Fighter/Skald."

Dwarf
Fighter/Chanter * Skald

Elf
Mage/Minstrel
Thief/Gypsy

Gnome
Illusionist/Professor
Thief/Professor * Jongleur

Half-Elf
Fighter/True * Blade * Gallant * Skald
Ranger/True * Meistersinger
Mage/Loremaster * Riddlemaster
Cleric/True
Druid/Meistersinger
Thief/True * Gypsy * Jongleur * Thespian

Halfling
Thief/Jongleur

“Dual-Classed Bards
“Only humans can be dual-classed. Dual-classed humans can use any kit that the
Dungeon Master allows in his campaign.
“In order to switch from the bard to another character class, the character must have a
15 or better in both Dexterity and Charisma and a 17 or better in the prime requisite of
the new class.
“If the character is of another class and wishes to pick up the bard class, he must have
a 15 or better in the prime requisite of his other class and a 17 or better in both Dexterity
and Charisma.”

So there is whole range of multi and dual class combinations that could canonically exist in the world of Baldur’s Gate that we’ve been missing out on. Personally I’d love to see Beamdog add some if not all of these possibilities (obviously excluding the kits that don’t currently exist) to the game if they made another expansion, as the addition of a single new class combo would, on its own, add hours of replay value the game (at least for me.)

Here are my thoughts on some of the combos:

The Fighter/Bard seems the most obvious addition because it would require the least work (I think--I’m not a programmer) as it would not need a new quick bar as the original bard one fills all the needs of the class. Mechanically it would fall between the Fighter/Thief and Fighter/Mage, adding some combat viability to the somewhat weak BG Bard (and possibly usurping the Blade’s position as the go to fighting Bard), and providing an interesting alternative to a Fighter/Mage/Thief, as it would be both a better fighter (higher thac0 and hp) and Spell caster (higher caster level and access to 6 level spells at endgame [compared to the F/M/T which rarely reaches enough exp to access 7 level spells at endgame]) than the F/M/T while still gaining access to Use any Item and Improved Bard Song while only sacrificing access to non-combat thief skills and a backstab. As a side note using EEkeeper to add a kit to Fighter/Bard would make it pretty OP; imagine a Blade using its Spins with Fighter thac0 and extra hp, and the Skald’s extra thac0 bonus isn’t to shabby. Also A Kensai Dualed to Bard would be very powerful, rivaling even the fabled Kensage and Kensai/Thief in game breakage, with great hp, great thac0, great damage, great APR, 6th level casting, and eventually the ability to use all armor, gauntlets, and weapons, essentially combining the best aspects of both the Kensage and the Kensai/Thief.

The Cleric/Bard has better synergy than the already existing Cleric/Thief Combo, as it’s essentially a Cleric/Mage with better HP that sacrifices quantity of mage spells for a higher (Mage) caster level--which is useful for a multi class caster--and a few other tricks, mainly access to an (admittedly underpowered, unless playing IWDEE) bard song, pick pockets, and Use any Item, meaning a Cleric that can eventually both put 1 pip in and use any weapon type, giving us possibilities like Clerics (effectively) wielding Carsomyr, Longbows, or the Ravager. A Cleric/Bard would possibly be the best spell roider in the game, gaining access to all the Clerics buffs, the best Mage Buffs (Blur, Mirror Image, Fireshields, Stoneskin, Tenser’s Transformation, plus Contingency,) all at a higher caster level than a Cleric/Mage and access to any buff that might be provided by a class specific item/equipment. The only downsides are that I have no idea how you would fit all its ability buttons on a quick bar, as it is, the Cleric/Thief has to store its thieving ability in its innate abilities submenu; and the Cleric/Bard would be somewhat of an oddity to role play, as the free wheeling life of a bard does not immediately fit our image of pious Clerics, however it could make sense if we envision such a class as a the wandering, fun loving, story telling, lusty Friar of the middle ages; anyone whose read the Canterbury Tales will recognize the archetype.

The Thief/Bard seems something of an oddity as usually Multi/Dual Class combos are of two different metaclasses, while both the Thief and Bard are rogues, yet it is a legal combination nonetheless. A Thief/Bard, at least a Multiclass one, would be rather redundant and poor at any of its jobs, having effectively worse thac0, HP, and proficiency gain, than either a Thief or Bard of the same experience, and, though they do gain access to a wider variety of weapons, they can still only backstab with those used by a thief. Basically anything a (Multiclass) Thief/Bard can do, a Mage/Thief can do better, with access to more and higher level spells, except singing, which, in the base game, is rather useless. However the combination is not useless, and moreover could be quite powerful when it is dual classed. What is interesting is that since both classes have the same hit dice, it is the only dual combo that could reasonably start as either of its classes without any loss of hp, although since thieves receive little benefit of levels beyond 13 (when their backstab multiplier caps), and Bards’ spell casting capabilities never stop progressing, it probably makes the most sense to begin as a Thief unless one is specifically planning on using a Bard kit. What you have then is essentially a Dual Thief/Mage with better thac0 (down to 10), hp, more weapon proficiencies (by the end of the game you could conceivably be proficient in every weapon type), access to all the major invisibility spells, the Use Any Item HLA, and only sacrificing some spells per level and spells level 7 and up, which is admittedly a harsh trade-off, but perhaps worth it for a Thief/Mage that is halfway decent in combat and, more importantly, can actually hit an opponent it tries to backstab, at least as well as a single class thief. Alternatively if you were to take the Swashbuckler kit, level to 10 or even 15 (which, remember, takes less experience than leveling a Fighter to 13) you would have an effective Thief/Mage that can dual wield, (eventually) put two pips in and use any melee weapon, and has a final thac0 comparable to a cleric, not to mention the damage and armor bonuses, all by giving up the hassle of trying to backstab people. Also since Bards and Thieves level faster than any other class, it would be one the least painful dual classing transitions in the metagame.

Then we have the Bard/Mage, which has the potential to be somewhat useful, as a sort of a plethora of spells, having effectively two arcane spellbooks, but which would likely be useless in the Baldur’s Gate Engine. As most of you know, BG only divides spell books and spells into two categories, Divine and Arcane, rather than allowing as many separate spell books as there are caster classes, like in the Neverwinter Nights series. In the case that a character has two spell progressions of the same type, such as the Divine spells of the Cleric/Ranger, the engine simply combines their spell book, using the highest caster level and spell slot amount of either class at their current level, but not adding together the total amount of spells each class grants, or recognizing different caster levels. As such in the current engine a Bard/Mage would have no spell casting benefits beyond a marginally higher caster level than Thief/Bard. If a Bard/Mage did have two separate spell books one could reserve the Bard slots for important level dependant spells, like dispel and remove magic, while using the Mage slots to spam spells that do not really benefit from a high caster level. However I surmise the number of spell books in BG is one of those hard-coded aspects that could not be altered unless the game was rebuilt from the ground up. The more feasible option would be to allow combined spell books to combine the quantity of spells granted by each class, while still using higher class’s caster level. However I believe even this is to much work for a class combo that, realistically, offers very little new game play that is not already provided by other classes and combinations, and seems rather redundant and not fun to play. Skip it.

Next we have the Ranger/Bard, an odd combo from a role playing point of view, but legal nonetheless; it could make sense if one were to focus less on the Ranger’s man-of-the-wilderness archetype and more on their involvement in rural communities as guardians and community leaders, who also happens to be a woodsman; in this capacity its not to farfetched to imagine a Ranger who is also a skilled storyteller and musician, and thus also fulfills the role of a bard, and instead of focusing on one community wanders from place to place, telling stories and defending peasants and farmers from evil, sort of Ranger-Errant if you will. Actually now that I think of it this isn’t to far from the original Gaelic conception of a bard. You could make quite an intriguing and rather unique Ranger/Bard npc. Mechanically speaking a Ranger/Bard, Dual or Multi class, is rather solid, with the same benefits as a Fighter/Bard, only with some minor Druid spells thrown into the mix (like barkskins as a substitute for armor), automatic dual wielding, and a racial enemy. A Ranger/Bard is also even more of a effective rogue than a single class Bard, as they can now hide in the shadows. Add the Stalker kit (with its ability to backstab) dual at at least level 9, and you have a better combat Mage/Thief than the default Mage/Thief, with good hp, decent thac0 and apr, a 3x backstab multiplier, and access to most major invisibly spells. Dual as an Archer (9 or 13) and suddenly you have a competent sniper that can also sling arcane spells. Some people have been clamoring for the inclusion of the illegal Ranger/Mage combo, meanwhile all along we’ve had a perfectly legal possibility of a arcane Ranger.

Finally we have the Druid/Bard. If you thought the Ranger/Bard was a odd role playing combo, then try to wrap your head around the equally legal Druid/Bard. The two roles just seem at odds: a Bard, although a wanderer, is a fixture of civilization, particularly cities, while Druids see them as distasteful or affronts to nature and only visit them when it is absolutely necessary, and even in the wilderness try not to stray to far from their chosen grove; Bards are social creatures, while Druids seclude themselves from other men, keeping the company of animals and sometimes other Druids; whom exactly does the Druid/Bard practice his skills on: does he pickpocket bears and sing to the birds and squirrels. I suppose they are the D&D equivalent of St. Francis of Assisi, but even his compatriots thought him a bit queer. They make about as much sense as Druid/Paladins, which I will remind you are not legal, even in 3rd edition, the edition that gave us viable Cleric/Warlocks. Mechanically speaking they are a bit of odd duck too. As with most double caster combos, they are more effective as Multi Classes than Dual Classes, as this allows both classes to proceed in their spell casting progression. They are similar to Cleric/Bards in capability, except that they can’t wear elven or melodic chain mail because they are Druids, and can’t wear Leather or Ankheg plate or they forfeit their Bard spells, at best they can equip robes, essentially meaning they have a worse AC than either parent class until late game with access to either powerful magic robes or the Use any Item HLA. Their Spell selection, though wider than either the Bard or Druid alone, can feel rather redundant when compared to the superior Cleric/Bard. Most of what makes the Druids Spell book unique is that they have access more Arcane-like spells than a standard cleric, but Druid/Bard’s Arcane spell book usually provides better alternatives already. Why cast an expensive Ironskins when you have Stoneskins. Why cast Call Lighting when you have Lighting bolt. The insect spells are still useful, but you miss out most of the cleric’s powerful buff spells, meaning that a Druid/Bard will never equal a Cleric/Bard in pure roid potential, this, combined with their subpar AC almost certainly means that a Druid/Bard can really only fill the role of a support caster. As aside, though, Druid/Bards do offer the possibility of Werewolf Bards, which is hilarious, who can eventually wear armor, which does negate all the deficiencies of the Shapeshifter kit. But seriously I don’t see people clamoring (I’m not) for the Druid/Bard combo with its lack of synergy and inability to make any damn sense from a lore perspective.

So those are the options the Bard Handbook offer us, is anyone else piqued?

Comments

  • FredSRichardsonFredSRichardson Member Posts: 465
    Someone can correct me on this, but I think this feature would have to be added through a 3rd party mod. For legal reasons I think beamdog is limited in what changes they can make to the content of the game - for example existing content has been changed in relatively minor ways to preserve the "essence" of the original games. Of course there is a lot of new content and several bug fixes.

    You should check out "Rogue Rebalancing". I don't know if anyone has added additional multi-class options, but you could suggest this on the forum (hosted at spellhold studios):

    http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/rr
  • ReddbaneReddbane Member Posts: 222
    I don't see how MultiBards, which are natural to 2e, are any more essence changing than the stuff they added from 3.5, like Dwarven Defenders, Blackguards, Shadowdancers, Dragon Disciple, the monk kits, etc (plus the added an entire new class, the Shaman, from 3.5.) Then again I've always been cloudy on what Beamdog's restrictions actually are.
  • shout27shout27 Member Posts: 89
    Well, this conversation is a little old, but I still want to give my two cents.

    1) Someone high enough up on the chain of command most likely gave up on any short term projects regarding BGEE, BG2EE, and IWDEE after SoD tanked so hard. What they forgot about the SJ material whoever spewed in their ears, is that stuff really only has traction in the US where politicians can push it. Outside of that? There are countries that freaking hang individuals who push that stuff (I'd honestly like to see the pride and joy [Mizhena] spout her stuff irl in the middle east where most women are at best second class citizens).

    2) I honestly expected to get something like this out of the 2.5 update. Apparently #1 won out.

    3) We'll probably never know what they are deliberately being prevented from implementing, for all we know it was stated in their contract that any new modules they push have to have SJ stuff going on.

    4) It will probably have to be shown that money can be made before another module is given the green light, which means anything like this that goes along with the rules at an advanced level will be a while. Especially because it's probably hard-coded for Bards/Wizards to use the same casting style/section/resource and they'd have to rebuild that aspect from the ground up, potentially adding a ton of bugs in the process. moreover, if they're going through that much work, they're much more likely to force them down the modern path of magic bards have rather than what they had in ADnD 2e.

    5) Beamdog should push for a custom Dark Sun campaign/game using the work they did on the 2.5 standardization. The brutality of that world will keep the word count down and they already have a system/engine to run it. The only thing that might be a problem are the lost art assets, as they might have to recreate some of that stuff for a desert planet, as well as the bone/stone/obsidian weaponry. I don't think they should remake the old story/game itself until after they have their own game in the Dark Sun world to release, though.

    The biggest thing to remember would that there would be some three to four times the number of grafters, if not more, willing and ready to cheat a party out of their ceramics/gold (compared to the handful encountered in BGEE).

    6) Just need to keep in mind that word count justifies nothing. If I just said "Hi." Fifty thousand times, people would rightly get pissed at me for screwing up.

    7) I'd be amused by a return to the first version of a bard I ever saw in ADnD1ed; human dualed to fighter/thief/druid that can then choose to become a bard. But given that that will probably never happen, I'd rather go to the wording printed in the 2nd ed ADnD players handbook that allows a human to dual class beyond two classes. he/she has up to four classes they can take levels in (but still can't return to a previous class):

    Warrior - Fighter/Ranger/Paladin/Barbarian (given that barbarians hate magic and gain extra XP for destroying it, no base Mage/Bard for this one)

    Priest - Cleric/Druid

    Rogue - Thief/Bard

    Mage - Wizard
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 858
    I want to say that most of the limitations on Dual/Multi class characters in the Infinity Engine is due to engine limitations? I'm sure we'll be able to get Fighter/Bard as a class in unmodded before the heat death of the universe (since un-hardcoding the engine is one of Beamdog's goals), it just depends on how many resources Beamdog can put into it.
  • ZandosZandos Member Posts: 12
    hmmm... ranger/bard is basically Aragorn.
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