Rewriting Throne of Bhaal?
disgruntledgamer
Member Posts: 13
Throne of Bhaal rubbed of on me as a "screw it" type of expansion, would anyone reject the idea of rewriting some of it at least or scraping it completely in favor of BG 3?
Post edited by disgruntledgamer on
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Slowly and insidiously, the cult grows:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2256/remove-tob-from-bg2ee
I think a fun idea for a BG3 might be built off ToB and include aspects of it, but gradually shift to some other part of the world where the main game would take place. The PC's role in this new area could vary depending on choices made in ToB and the difference between good and evil choices could become more pronounced.
For example: If the PC chose to become a god in ToB, s/he could then be involved in some major plot in the new area where the role of god of murder was important. Something could happen that would make the PC vulnerable even though s/he was a god. Maybe Cyric, Lolth, or some other god[ess] would be involved. Righteous heroes could go on quests to destroy the new god of murder even while the PC was dealing with larger issues with other gods, which would add to the complexity.
Alternatively, if the PC chose to remain mortal, but one of the 5 survived ToB, that person could become the god[ess] of murder instead and then the PC could be the righteous hero trying to stop them. Or, the PC could be an ally of the god[ess] of murder who was trying to help them against the other deities or the parties of adventurers.
For multiplayer, I think it would be interesting if the counter-operative option were available in addition to co-operative. I remember how fun it was to play as the counter-operative on Perfect Dark. In a counter-operative multiplayer game, there are human players on both sides. This would mean that while one human party was trying to stop the 5 as in a normal ToB game, another human party would be trying to help the 5, or maybe even would include the 5. Eventually the two parties could fight each other. There could be additional quests for the party that helped the 5, such as finding a way into Saradush or collecting Bhaalspawn scalps.
Anyway, these are just some preliminary ideas I've had about how the plot direction in BG3 could go in relation to a partially re-written ToB.
I dont think they need to "rewrite" it, But I do think that in the title of BG2:EE they should focus their work on TOB and not on SOA which is already pretty polished.
But otherwise, I spent a good time on it, and I don't see what could be added or rewrited in ToB
Using Sendai in a BG3 combined with ToB is just one idea among many and isn't the main idea in my earlier post. Really, any of the 5 could be used or not at all and the larger idea would still work. Sendai was meant as an example to illustrate the point and because I personally like her more than the other members of the 5.
For now I'll just be patient and keep my fingers crossed.
An item modding tool generator would be great. I did originally try making modules and items for NWN, but I didn't actually like the game enough to play it more than once.
I even like the concept of The Five. For me the big problems are that Mel stays too much on the periphery of the story to have been introduced so late, and that The Five are basically used as bosses rather than being characters in their own right. You interact with them basically just long enough to kill them. There's no "movement" to the story. Compare to Sarevok and Irenicus who show up to antagonize multiple times throughout their respective games.
That being said, I am a realist, and although I am hoping for this, I'm certainly not expecting nearly as much as I'm hoping for in this area. At the end of the day, the team is limited and can only do so much.
I always found Irenicus to be such a weak choice for a final boss... he's so uncharismatic and boring (not to mention he looks ridiculous and not elf-like... how the hell did that happen, btw? He was cursed and ZAP, he got a leatherface mask, and became bulkier and 2 feet taller?).
All the Bhaalspawn are cool and interesting (except for the first lady), and what's most important, the final boss, the battle and the endings are much more interesting than the BG2 ones.
I really loved the fact that ToB lets you have a home base where you can summon all your allies, I loved the fact that they expanded on the BG2 romances (Aerie's baby!), I love the (again) EPICNESS of the endings of every single character (Keldorn in primis), and I loved to have enemies and a plot that are ACTUALLY CONNECTED to the main character and the fact that he's a Bhaalspawn... just like Sarevok in the first game), and unlike Irenicus who's just... some wizard guy who happened to notice you and decided you could give him the power he was looking for, in his totally unrelated war.
Basically, whereas the BG and ToB bosses are your NATURAL ENEMIES... Irenicus, well, he's Iron Man, and you're the curds who give him the tools to make his suit at the beginning of the movie, so he can go on and fight his REAL enemy (Ellesime, the Elves and the Elven Gods).
I think Irenicus and Bodhi are more interesting and imaginative than just lots of Bhaalspawn war however.
To me, the whole "Bhaal shacked anything" story, is EXTREMELY imaginative: Bhaalspawn drow... alright. Bhaalspawn half-orc... ok. Bhaalspawn kobold... seriously? Bhaalspawn chinchilla... WTH?? And I'm not gonna name one of the non-human bosses in ToB, just because I realized that there are people like @NWN_babaYaga, here, who might hate me for spoilering. But that was EPIC.
Irenicus, on the other hand... is atypical looking, sure (because he looks human when he's an elf - whatever - and because of the leatherface thing)... but other than that is just your usual power-crazed wizard, who does stuff "For The Evulz", and (as I said) has nothing to do with us. And his speeches are just. So. BORING! >.<
Bodhi is just a regular cruel, depraved vampire. I hated that part of the game, because they dedicated sooooooo much "screentime" to such a bland character.
Mundane sidequests are beneath you and there's not a world-destroying monstrosity around every corner. Except for your siblings of course.
The plot focuses on the end race for Bhaal's power. The final players are in, this is the hour where it all gets decided and that works quite well for a finale. It doesn't waste time with side characters, your mission is simple; Kill the others before they kill you.
I do have one problem with it though; Melissan.
I have a deep disdain for Melissan and whoever thought it was a good idea to include her. You know she's evil from the moment she shows up. She's a witch and a crappy liar, her plot makes no sense at all and she's introduced at the final part of the saga, suddenly presented as the great threat.
Worst of all, despite having EVIL BITCH written on her forehead, you can't call her out until someone else goes "Hey, bhaalspawn demigod with planeshaking wisdom and/or mindboggeling intellect, this harpy before you is evil! Aren't you a surprised little bastard now?"
No, no I'm not, I've been yelling "Don't trust the evil bitch!" at my monitor for six hours now, but for some reason, Flaran the Wise was turned into Flaran the Fucktard when she showed up. I'm guessing a low cut robe and double D's were involved, I accept no other explanation.
Ahem.
So anyway.
If they were allowed to rewrite (which they're not), I'd recommend cutting her out entirely. She's not *required* for the plot to work, all she does it point you in the right direction. That role can be filled by anyone.
The final battle would then not be with some flunky with a god complex, but with the revived essence of Bhaal itself, an actual revived god. I doubt he'd wait til ALL his children were dead, he works just fine at 98% capacity so the deaths of Charname, Imoen, Balthazar and Viekang aren't strictly required (clearing the plothole of "but Viekang is still alive, how can you be a god if he's alive and you don't have his essence" as well).
It's also more personal; you've been fighting this bastard since he started whispering in your ear the moment you left Candlekeep. Imagine how chilling it would be to have Bhaal himself throw you a speech, ending with "You WILL learn!" before he throws in all his god-powers? With his power over Death and Murder, he could summon anyone you murdered and infuse them with his divine spark, bringing them up to your power level. This could be a whole list of enemies you faced; Shank and Carbos (your first kills), Tarnesh from the Friendly Arm Inn (can't wait to kill him again), Davaeorn, Tazok (Again? Again!), Sarevok if you didn't take him in your party at the start of ToB, Irenicus and Bodhi (much like Ascension), maybe even Khalid, forced to work for Bhaal (If anyone was murdered, it was him and imagine how messed up this would make Jaheira (always a bonus)).
It reminds you of all the foes you faced and shows you how much of a death machine you really are, as well as tying the series together in the final chapter.
The fight is more personal for your allies too; Imoen hates her heritage to the bone, Sarevok is facing what he failed to become (and possibly now resents for moral reasons as well), Jaheira has been helping you fight this being since the beginning.
And in the end, when you land your final blow, there'll be no Solar giving you the choice of Godhood or not. This never made any sense, Solars are the purest beacons of Good, they'd never allow a CE Charname to ascend to godhood if they could stop it. Her visits in the pocketplane were to try and steer you away from the dark path, but in the end, it's a choice YOU have to make and arrange, not have some random angel do the work for you after you say yes or no.
When Bhaal is on his knees and defeated, you can choose. Grab him by the throat and absorb his power or destroy him utterly? YOU do the deed and grab the power yourself, instead of it being given to you by a heavenly tart.
This way, the final part of the game is much more dramatic, much more personal and it reminds you of the entire series, instead of being a self-contained unit like now.
And it removes Melissan.
God I hate Mellissan.