Help Picking a Class
Melet
Member Posts: 1
I just want to play a relatively fun martial that can hit things straight through to the end of both games! I'm a Human! What do I pick?
At first I was going to pick Ranger because I felt like the versatility is useful then the internet said don't pick Ranger, pick Archer, then I looked into that and the internet says don't pick Archer, play Stalker instead, Backstab is super useful, and then I look up Stalker and it says, why would you play Stalker, when you could play Fighter/Thief? And so I look up THAT and Fighter/Thief is relegated only to the demi-races.
So then it's like okay, I'm definitely picking Human, how about dualclassing? THEN the internet says, oh well dualclassing is all well and good but you suck for a several levels in the midgame, so you COULD do Fighter/Thief but why pick that when Mage/Fighter is so much better?
But then the internet says, wait wait wait, why do Mage/Fighter if you're going to dualclass? Then you'll cap out early since Mage is so much better lategame, you should do Fighter 9/13 and THEN go Mage instead! And that was about the point I was like wow, wait, hold on, okay, this is like, way sidetracked from what I actually want to play.
So then I go looking up just like, okay what do I play, it's my first time playing, and I just see a new avalanche of 'pick Paladin, go Lawful Good Paladin' and then 'just go straight Fighter' and 'Sorcerer is really OP' and so on... and I still haven't even considered Bard yet!
So I'm stuck. Help! Help me!!! I want to play the video game but I can't get past the Final Boss that is Character Generation!!! Help me!!!
I kind of want to be able to do as much 'party stuff' as I can on my one character including party face, disarming, lockpicking, etc, as well as hitting everything to death in melee and shootin stuff with ranged kind of from stealth or whatever too. What do I do!? What do I pick!?
Help!!!
At first I was going to pick Ranger because I felt like the versatility is useful then the internet said don't pick Ranger, pick Archer, then I looked into that and the internet says don't pick Archer, play Stalker instead, Backstab is super useful, and then I look up Stalker and it says, why would you play Stalker, when you could play Fighter/Thief? And so I look up THAT and Fighter/Thief is relegated only to the demi-races.
So then it's like okay, I'm definitely picking Human, how about dualclassing? THEN the internet says, oh well dualclassing is all well and good but you suck for a several levels in the midgame, so you COULD do Fighter/Thief but why pick that when Mage/Fighter is so much better?
But then the internet says, wait wait wait, why do Mage/Fighter if you're going to dualclass? Then you'll cap out early since Mage is so much better lategame, you should do Fighter 9/13 and THEN go Mage instead! And that was about the point I was like wow, wait, hold on, okay, this is like, way sidetracked from what I actually want to play.
So then I go looking up just like, okay what do I play, it's my first time playing, and I just see a new avalanche of 'pick Paladin, go Lawful Good Paladin' and then 'just go straight Fighter' and 'Sorcerer is really OP' and so on... and I still haven't even considered Bard yet!
So I'm stuck. Help! Help me!!! I want to play the video game but I can't get past the Final Boss that is Character Generation!!! Help me!!!
I kind of want to be able to do as much 'party stuff' as I can on my one character including party face, disarming, lockpicking, etc, as well as hitting everything to death in melee and shootin stuff with ranged kind of from stealth or whatever too. What do I do!? What do I pick!?
Help!!!
0
Comments
Yes, the multiclass requires you to play a non-human race (unless you mod the rules). That's not a problem. Non-humans are, mechanically, just better than humans. Class selection is the only human advantage.
Unless you absolutely must be human, for non-mechanical reasons. In which case, you do you.
What's a multiclass fighter/thief good for? Tactical flexibility. You can switch combat roles at a moment's notice. Put on heavy armor and wade in as a tank. Take off the heavy armor and sneak around to backstab enemies. Grab a ranged weapon and start shooting from the back - since you can't go beyond specialization in any one weapon, you will diversify your weapon choices and have multiple good options.
When I played my no-spellcasting run, my protagonist was a halfling fighter/thief. She generally wore heavy armor in combat, taking it off to use skills. After all, you hardly ever need to disarm a trap during a battle. And you can still backstab to start a fight; while you can't hide in heavy armor, you stay invisible for about a round if you put the armor on after successfully hiding.
What's a fighter -> thief dual good for? Backstabs. You'll push your weapon of choice to grand mastery and reduce your flexibility a bit, but then that extra damage gets multiplied in a backstab. It makes a big difference.
You can also take a kit on the fighter side. A brief overview of the options:
- Barbarian. Not an option; barbarians aren't allowed to dual-class.
- Berserker. No specialization in missile weapons, and you get a rage ability for a bit of a combat boost and a ton of immunities. Practically free, really, and that rage is very useful.
- Dwarven Defender. Not an option; only dwarves can take the kit, and only humans can dual-class.
- Kensai. Bonuses to attack and damage, at the cost of a bunch of equipment restrictions. You can't play as a tank or an archer, but once the dual comes on line you're the absolute best at backstabbing. AC doesn't matter if they can't see you. Oh, and once you hit epic levels and take Use Any Item, that nullifies the equipment restrictions. This one's my favorite, though I haven't played it in a while.
- Wizard Slayer. You get a bit of magic resistance and can destroy the spellcasting ability of mages you hit (but not priests). This ability is less useful than it sounds; most of the difficulty of fighting mages comes from defensive spells that prevent you from hitting them. If you can hit the mage with physical attacks, you can usually just kill it with them. On the flip side, the equipment restrictions really hurt. Probably not worth it compared to the other options.
When should you dual-class in a fighter -> thief build? Somewhere fairly early in SoA. Fighter level 9 gets you a grand mastery locked in and all of the fighter hit dice for high HP. Fighter level 13 gets you that extra 1/2 APR, plus permanently better THAC0 and saves - but you won't complete the dual until the rest of your party are nearly up to HLAs. Some earlier duals might make sense in a vacuum, but they don't mesh well with the campaign structure on a protagonist. It takes a lot longer to go from Fighter 7 to F7->T8 in BGEE than it does to go from Fighter 9 to F9->T10 in BG2EE.
How about thief -> fighter? Variant material. Think of it as a fighter with some utility abilities, at the cost of hit points. You won't have much of a backstab due to the low thief level, and you won't be able to master very many thief skills. But just having a few levels of investment in trapfinding and lockpicking means you don't have to worry about covering that in the rest of your party.
Briefly on the other options you mentioned ...
Rangers and their kits. Stealth is great even if you don't have a backstab multiplier; scouting is very useful on all the outdoor maps in the BG1 campaign. If you see them before they see you, you can plan the encounter and take it on your terms. And rangers are good at stealth right from the beginning. Kit-wise ... archers lock you in to one tactical role, but they're so good at it that you don't mind. Stalkers get a combat use for their stealth and a few neat spells, though they'll never come close to a fighter/thief as a backstabber. Beastmasters are just ... not good.
Mage -> Fighter. On this one, I'd argue that the best time to dual is at the very earliest opportunity, level 2. You're not a real mage, you're just a fighter that can use wands and scrolls. And that's enough to be interesting.
Fighter -> Mage. A well known "power" option, though not one I care to play. You can either go for the arcane melee play style (defend with spells, attack with weapons) or play as a mage with a bigger HP pool.
Paladin. Yes, they're nice and straightforward. It's an easy roleplaying hook, too.
Pure Fighter. Strong early, suffers a bit at high levels. Maybe a bit too straightforward, with zero active class abilities.
Sorcerer. Definitely powerful; the strongest party I've ever built had a Dragon Disciple protagonist. But you have to know what you're doing and choose the right spells as you level up to achieve that power. Not recommended for a first playthrough.
Bard. Jack of all trades in theory, support class in practice. I've run a lot of parties with bards in them, but never as the protagonist.
On the list of "party stuff" you mentioned ...
- Party Face. High charisma is the only requirement here - no social skills in 2nd edition. You can drag portraits around on the right side of the screen; whoever's at the top of that is generally the one who's going to talk to merchants and quest NPCs. So, that's who serves as the party's face. In BG1, they'll need a naturally high charisma. In BG2, there's a ring you can find very early on that sets charisma to 18 so anyone can fill the role at the cost of an item slot.
- Disarming and lockpicking. Only thieves may apply. There's really no substitute in this system; while several other classes can use one or two of the thief skills, both the "disarm trap" and "pick lock" actions are thief-only.
- Hitting things hard in melee. You pretty much have to have a proper martial class for this one. Only warriors and monks get bonus attacks per round, and you just can't do much hitting at 1 APR.
- Shooting things at long range. Anyone that can hold a bow can do a decent job, but warriors will do a lot more damage. And the Archer kit is in a class of its own here. Also, archery is much more powerful in BG1 than BG2. You'll want several archers in the party in BG1, and then won't care if you have none in BG2.
On the whole ... a fighter/thief combination of some sort really does sound like what you want to play. This time, at least. Hopefully, what I've written will be helpful for you.
A few general notes. The foundational idea is it is a whole team event. It is expected you will have all four major class types (warrior, rogue, priest, wizard) in your party. Personally I like 3 warriors, 2 priests, 2 wizards and one rogue (that is more than six, that’s where multi- or dual comes into play) When you hear of people running without one or more of those types, it’s a challenge. That means they are usually veteran players who are deliberately making things harder on themselves. So don’t do that on a first run, plan on a balanced full party.
A tank (generally an armored warrior) makes the most sense on point. To me, that makes a tank with a good charisma is my most commonly run main character. Often this means a Paladin. But truly, any character *you want* to play can be managed.
So I would start with reading through the class/kit descriptions. See if any of them really connect for you. Something you would *want* to be, or live with for a long run, something to really root for. Because the game will take a while. My first run of the whole saga (all of BG1 & BG2) took months.
Once you’ve settled on something that appeals to YOU, you are ready to play. Building your team may take a while, especially if you go in mostly unspoiled (like not knowing who all the NPCs are and where they can be found). But that is how most of us here started. Exploring the world and getting to know the characters is a very fun part of the game.
And getting started will be hard. 1st level characters in AD&D are notoriously fragile. So expect a few reloads. And a few *ARRGGGH* sort of moments. That’s the game. Remember, it’s all fun!
Whether you go dual or multi, you can still fulfill this role. I actually think dwarf is an underrated race candidate here. Being able to get to 19 strength and 20 constitution in BG1, with the tomes allows you to hit some pretty key benchmarks. 18 dexterity, again with the tome, is frankly not much worse than 19 or 20. Halflings do get better base thief skills, but imo, that hardly matters, since you'll have plenty.
Dualing is of course objectively the strongest build once it's completed. The tradeoff is the downtime. One note on dualing thief to fighter, is that you will be stuck with 18 strength, that is without the fighter d100 roll. You'll be stuck with non-fighter, meager strength bonuses. In the un-modded game anyways. This won't matter if you're able to push your base strength to 19 via the tome, but it's worth noting. And that tome does come pretty late in BG1.
Fighter/thief is also a pretty good build for what you describe in terms of party face, etc. You can dump both intelligence and wisdom, so depending on your roll, you can often get enough for a good charisma score in BG1. Intelligence of 9 is necessary for wands and the protection scrolls. A completely dumped intelligence will also make you very vulnerable to mind flayers late in BG2. You don't need to have it, but just noting this.
But really, the greatest enemy is "restartitis". You play for a while, and then you have some new idea that tempts you to restart with a new character. And again, and again, so you don't finish the game for a very long time. You really need some hook to keep you going. For me, logging the runs is the big one - that way I'm telling a story instead of just playing it. (And sometimes I end up posting that story)
A tip to help with that: ranged weapons. All of your low-level party members should have a ranged option, no exceptions. And most of them should be using ranged weapons primarily. On the flip side, most enemies are melee attackers, especially in early areas. If you shoot down the enemies before they can reach you, they can't hurt you.
But. There's a mechanic this game doesn't try to explain at all that you really need to know. In a melee attack, if the defender either has a ranged weapon equipped or is unarmed*, the attacker gets +4 to hit and +4 damage. And on the flip side, a ranged attack against a target in melee range gets -8 to hit. These are huge modifiers. Don't be on the wrong side of them.
So, how do you deal with that? Everyone should carry a melee weapon in one of their quickslots. And if a melee enemy closes on one of your archers, you hit that quick weapon switch button on the action bar so they don't get the chance to hit you harder. Then, most likely, try to make some distance so you can get back to shooting them.
Animals are particularly dangerous here; the standard "weapons" animals use have the reach of a two-handed weapon and the quickness of an enchanted dagger. That wolf can attack you a lot sooner than you'd think.
Oh, and if you'd like to turn these modifiers against the enemies? You can. The rules work both ways. Of course, most ranged enemies are carrying a melee option and will switch to it if they see you closing on them. Key word: see.
* Monk fists and natural weapons don't count as "unarmed" for this purpose.
Largely agreed here, with one significant caveat. I think you should absolutely dedicate one member of your party to being a frontline tank, especially in the early levels. And you should always have this person taking point, being the first person to lead the party into the fog of war areas. There's a solid assortment of gear in the early game to facilitate this strategy, even without the nice hidden armor, getting you to a functional AC where most common enemies have to roll a 19-20 to hit you. Montaron, Khalid or Branwen can all work well as this frontline tank in the early levels. Have this character charge in, while your other five fire missile weapons. This just allows the player, imo, a less micro-intense early game, where they can clear low level mobs without much worry.
Also worth noting the game has a "no one-shot" rule for your characters at low levels/low hp. So, so long as you keep your frontliner at maximum HP, they can't be killed by a single attack. And if you stack AC items on them, you can make it very very hard for enemies to score multiple hits in a round. Essentially negating some of that tedious early game difficulty. Use healing potions. So even Montaron with his lowly 9 hp, works very well as an early tank. There are a small number of exceptions to this one-shot rule, such as enemies with enchanted weapons, like kobolds with fire arrows. But it holds for about 95% of the early game enemies.