Some Class-Balancing Ideas
g314
Member Posts: 201
I don't know if this would be possible because of D&D's 2nd Edition rules or time constraints, but here goes...
I was thinking about some game situations regarding classes in Baldur's Gate. Imagine a one vs one battle with characters that share the same level of experience. Of course BG concept revolves around partying to defeat enemies, but I would like to make some comparisons to express my idea. One thing I'd like to get from the Enhanced Edition is the concept that there really aren't 'best' or 'worst' classes, only 'favorite.'
Some BG examples I can remember:
- X-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled THIEF (or BARD). Thieves can't hide in the shadows and perform a backstab when a character turns hostile, and can't perform a full Critical Hit either since fighters can wear helms. The fighter will easily defeat the thief because he or she is very proficient with their weapon of choice (magical or not).
Of course, I can understand rogues can't win a direct battle, but how about some unpredictable strategies and dirty tricks to enrich this class? Think of Assassin's Creed, where you can counter-attack opponents when they are attacking. Also, how about transferring chances to hit to Dexterity instead of Strength? Wouldn't Strength determine how much *DAMAGE* will the character do? And wouldn't Dexterity determine agility (Armor Class) and bonuses to weapon proficiency (chance to hit, THAC0) rather than just range weapons? I think this should be addressed.
- High-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled MAGE (or SORCERER). Once a mage casts protection spells (especially from magical weapons), the fighter is doomed to defeat since he or she can't dispel mage's protections. Normally, a fighter would ask another mage for support, but if he craves for independence, he or she can be a fighter/mage.
Most people I know played BG as a fighter/mage as they're proficient in any weapon and can cast spells. Even Dragon Age Origins had Arcane Warrior for mages that become fighters as well. This basically seems to be the 'best' combination for better chances to survive in most situations in BG, since most battles require brute force and spells, but nothing particularly unpredictable. I think this class is often times overkill, and maybe it should be a little nerfed for balancing since a medium-level fighter/mage would easily beat a very strong, simple fighter for the reasons I mentioned above. And he or she will anyway beat anybody since BG is still too focused on brute force, especially in TOB. What's your opinion?
- X-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled CLERIC. Clerics have a wide array of protection spells, but unlike mages they are very limited in attack spells. Clerics can also heal themselves in emergencies, but if they're hit they will easily lose the spell (mage/clerics can however use Contingency). Clerics also lack level proficiency in slashing weapons like swords and are limited to blunt weapons. Even though they have many interesting spells, clerics have little chances in combat, unless they're enforced by a party, but I don't see how a cleric alone can beat a simple fighter or a reasonably powerful mage.
Generally, I prefer playing with multiclass characters to get a wider diversity from the game, but still, I think a fighter/anything (especially a fighter/mage) seems too easy and sometimes obvious. Not surprisingly, Jaheira and Sarevok are greatly recommended characters, and not just for plot reasons IMHO.
I also believe anybody should be able to use any weapon and armor like in the 3rd Edition, as long they can spend proficiency points. I personally prefer the 3rd Edition over the 2nd, but I just LOVE the 2nd Edition spells. If we can get a mix between the two, that would be great to me.
Just my 2 cents.
I was thinking about some game situations regarding classes in Baldur's Gate. Imagine a one vs one battle with characters that share the same level of experience. Of course BG concept revolves around partying to defeat enemies, but I would like to make some comparisons to express my idea. One thing I'd like to get from the Enhanced Edition is the concept that there really aren't 'best' or 'worst' classes, only 'favorite.'
Some BG examples I can remember:
- X-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled THIEF (or BARD). Thieves can't hide in the shadows and perform a backstab when a character turns hostile, and can't perform a full Critical Hit either since fighters can wear helms. The fighter will easily defeat the thief because he or she is very proficient with their weapon of choice (magical or not).
Of course, I can understand rogues can't win a direct battle, but how about some unpredictable strategies and dirty tricks to enrich this class? Think of Assassin's Creed, where you can counter-attack opponents when they are attacking. Also, how about transferring chances to hit to Dexterity instead of Strength? Wouldn't Strength determine how much *DAMAGE* will the character do? And wouldn't Dexterity determine agility (Armor Class) and bonuses to weapon proficiency (chance to hit, THAC0) rather than just range weapons? I think this should be addressed.
- High-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled MAGE (or SORCERER). Once a mage casts protection spells (especially from magical weapons), the fighter is doomed to defeat since he or she can't dispel mage's protections. Normally, a fighter would ask another mage for support, but if he craves for independence, he or she can be a fighter/mage.
Most people I know played BG as a fighter/mage as they're proficient in any weapon and can cast spells. Even Dragon Age Origins had Arcane Warrior for mages that become fighters as well. This basically seems to be the 'best' combination for better chances to survive in most situations in BG, since most battles require brute force and spells, but nothing particularly unpredictable. I think this class is often times overkill, and maybe it should be a little nerfed for balancing since a medium-level fighter/mage would easily beat a very strong, simple fighter for the reasons I mentioned above. And he or she will anyway beat anybody since BG is still too focused on brute force, especially in TOB. What's your opinion?
- X-level FIGHTER vs same-leveled CLERIC. Clerics have a wide array of protection spells, but unlike mages they are very limited in attack spells. Clerics can also heal themselves in emergencies, but if they're hit they will easily lose the spell (mage/clerics can however use Contingency). Clerics also lack level proficiency in slashing weapons like swords and are limited to blunt weapons. Even though they have many interesting spells, clerics have little chances in combat, unless they're enforced by a party, but I don't see how a cleric alone can beat a simple fighter or a reasonably powerful mage.
Generally, I prefer playing with multiclass characters to get a wider diversity from the game, but still, I think a fighter/anything (especially a fighter/mage) seems too easy and sometimes obvious. Not surprisingly, Jaheira and Sarevok are greatly recommended characters, and not just for plot reasons IMHO.
I also believe anybody should be able to use any weapon and armor like in the 3rd Edition, as long they can spend proficiency points. I personally prefer the 3rd Edition over the 2nd, but I just LOVE the 2nd Edition spells. If we can get a mix between the two, that would be great to me.
Just my 2 cents.
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Comments
I also think that BG is a party game, and as such I don't think all classes need to be nerfed/beefed up just so they can all have equal chances against each other in one-on-one fights.
Yes, some combos are indeed very powerful, but in the end, BG isn't a competitive game where you battle against other players.
But these ideas for class balancing are best suited for an idea for a new RPG, not one that's already established as using 2nd edition. There's no was the team would have time to do this stuff and, on top of that, when you attempt to introduce "balancing" into an established system it will almost always inadvertently introduce an imbalance as well. Also, the team won't under any circumstances change the ruleset being used, so I don't really see this request really going anywhere. I'm glad to have read your ideas though.
PALADIN KITS
Cavalier -
Possibly one of the most overpowered class kits you could have in Baldur's Gate 1, simply because of their immunities - Immunity to Charm, poison, fear and moral failure. I've tried such a class on Tutu and I could literally decimate all the Sirines on the coastline south of Candlekeep and in the Lighthouse are with incredible ease.
Their resistance to Fire and Acid as well as bonuses to hit and damage against Draconic and Demonic creatures isn't that much of a big deal in early Baldur's Gate 1 though.
Suggestions :
Immunities appear gradually per levels, and aren't available immediately on level 1. My guess is that the best way to go around it would be to make one of each available ever 2 levels, or at level 4 and 6, even for the fear immunity (simply because mages in BG1 abuse horror)
Inquisitor-
Similar to the cavalier, the Inquisitor is immune to charm and hold (which is another picked spells all across BG1), as well as gets True Sight and Dispel. All of which are awesome but super overpowered early on.
Suggestions :
Charm and Hold immunities should be available at later levels, 4 and 6 perhaps, like for the Cavalier suggestion.
True sight is a great ability, lets you detect not only invisibility but all illusions and dispel them if I am not mistaken. Think of the impact it would have in BG1 - Invisibility, Mirror Images, Blur, all gone in the blink of an eye, making mage fights ridiculous. I think such a power should be available much later in game, not so early (one true sight would make the fight with Sarevok easy as pie for example), maybe even above the BG1EE levels.
Dispel magic is also an issue but requires the Inquisitor to actually level up to become more useful. Then again, mid-way through Shadows of Amn, that Dispel is one serious mage killer, simply because the odds it will work will always be 99%.
Undead Hunter -
Immune to Hold. Bonuses against undead creatures are powerful but not too big.
Suggestions :
Immunity to hold is available at a higher level, not to make all priest fights laughable.
FIGHTER KITS
Berserker -
Enrage. Enough said really. 15 bonus health, 2 bonus THAC0 and damage, -2 AC bonus, Immunity to charm, hold, fear, maze, imprisonment, stun, confusion, feeblemind, level drain and sleep. All this packed up for 60 seconds. Enough to finish off most fights SOLO in Baldur's Gate 1.
Suggestions :
Enrage bonuses appear gradually through levels :
- 5 Bonus health, plus 5 more at level 3 and 5
- 1 to hit and damage bonus, plus additional 1 on level 4
- -1 AC bonus, plus additional -1 on level 4
Level 4 : Immunity to Charm, Hold and Fear
Level 6 : Immunity to Feeblemind, Confusion and Sleep
Level 8 : Immunity to Stun, Maze and Level Drain
Level 10 : Immunity to Imprisonment
This might be a bit too radical of a change, but chances are you won't touch anything with imprisonment until Level 14+ anyway.
Wizard Slayer -
10% cumulative casting chance failure. Innate magic resistance (14 at level 1)
Suggestions :
Not much of a big bonus for the WS's disadvantage (no magical item except armor and weapon)
One might thing that the 10% casting chance failure is big, but try hitting a mage 10 times on level one with a fighter. Possible, but chances are the mage is going to be dead sooner.
Kensai -
Various combat bonuses : +1 hit and damage every 3 levels, -2 bonus armor class, Kai, -1 Speed factor bonus every four level.
Suggestions :
They are actually too weak in Baldur's Gate 1. You really need a lot of shielding in order to hope for survival.
So suggestions would be to make it stronger so that it doesn't fall behind (true enough, by BG2 it catches up and starts being a killer) Maybe make an item available early on through a quest (shield amulet?)
Barbarian (I know it's not a fighter kit, but still) -
They have a lot of bonuses. D12 HP, immunity to backstabs, some bonus movement speed, and Enrage, which grants +4 constitution and Strength bonuses, as well as various immunities and some disadvantages.
Suggestions :
Barbarians actually have disadvantages for their Enrage, that being 2 AC penalty, and some save throws penalties if I am not mistaken.
Their immunities include charm, hold, fear, maze, confusion, sleep, stun and level drain, similar to Rage. My suggestion is pretty similar at this point.
Enrage gets improved throughout levels :
- 2 Strength and Constitution bonus, +1 additional on level 3 and 5
Level 4 : Immunity to Charm, Hold, Fear
Level 6 : Immunity to Confusion and Sleep
Level 8 : Immunity to Stun, Level Drain and Maze
Disadvantages apply immediately on level 1.
RANGER KITS
Stalker -
Bonuses for Stealth, can backstab, bonus mage spells.
Suggestions :
None at all. The Stalker's bonuses are all granted on higher levels. There is nothing making this class overpowered directly, but it can have some other sort of bonuses so that players will be compelled by playing named kit. Otherwise, it won't have any screenplay. (especially because their armor disadvantage)
Beast Master -
Bonus to stealth and gains some neat abilities, namely Animal Summoning 1, 2 and 3 as spells, as well as a Find Familiar spell. Cannot use any metal weapon and cannot wear armor heavier than Studded Leather.
Suggestions :
Make some non-metal weapons that are WORTH the class. Find familiar is decent low level bonus for this class, but the Beast Master in general is one of the most underwhelming classes in the entire game, so much that some people think it's the WORST kit in the game. To make it short - add bonuses, don't remove them.
Archer -
Various bonuses to ranged weapons, similar to a Kensai with melee weapons. Called shot ability, which is already balanced enough, can have grandmastery in bows and such weapons.
Suggestions :
One of the main facts of Tutu is that you could put four proficiencies on one weapon already on level 1. This should be fixed, otherwise the Archer would become one serial killer from the distance. Other than that, the called shot ability is balanced already, and bonuses occur throughout levels.
I'll write some Priest, Rogues and Wizard ideas later on today, need to think about it for a while (especially priests)
So far, what are your thoughts on the subject? How would you rebalance the kits?
True Sight might be a problem, but I think the real problem of BG1 mages is that they're really squishy regardless of Blur and Mirror Image. Losing Mirror Image from True Sight or from a Magic Missile might not make much of a difference. Then there's also the issue that with Thieves using the BG2 skills, Detect Illusions are basically a free True Sight once you level the thing up (but at least this will take a few levels to improve at the cost of other abilities).
I'd actually buff up the Stalker kit for low levels. I think when you're a level 1 kit you should automatically have something that makes you feel like you're actually playing a kit and not just the base class (or a Ranger that can't wear heavy armor). +20% Stealth and 1x Backstab doesn't really do it for me.
I'm actually ok with the Berserker's getting their immunities through leveling though. I hate it that their Berserk ability is so similar to Barbarians. I don't support the Barbarian rage getting gimped though.
Ill second more club weapons for beastmaster. They are rarely encountered... Only one non standard magical in TotsC I think ?
Kensai and monk will have a hard time. Don't really know what to do with kensai, since wearing armor is out of questions, and shields doesn't really... seems right. They need hitpoints, maybe a helmet that give +15 life for them early game ? But that would be hard to implement.
Monks will still be underpowered level 7-8. It's a shame 'coz I really like them. I don't really know what to do with them, but they will have at most 4-5 AC in the entire game. That's mage like ! Maybe an AC bonus to armor related to wisdom and remove some natural AC gain with levels ?
I agree that some of my "rebalance" suggestion might be too severe and Paladins kits wouldn't feel that good on low levels, but I think it might be either that or maybe some way to make sirines stronger? (using arrows immediately and cleverly I guess?). I mean, I am not saying that sirenes are weak, but then again, if you crowd them in numbers, they literally are jokes (especially for 2000 XP of reward each)
Some other things that absolutely need rebalancing are Spirit Animals from the Totemic Druid (I might be wrong, but could some of them be immune to normal weapons?)
I'll have to think about it some more, thanks!
Edit :
@Medillen : Monks tend to be quite tricky, especially because their fists aren't even magical until level 9 (meaning that in Tutu, they can't kill enemies that are immune to non-magical weapons)
I still think that a nice amulet of shielding early on from an easy-to-complete quest would give some nice bonuses for Monks and Kensais, as both can use them. Other than that, maybe kit specific weapons for both Kensai and Monks?
I'd have to check, but I believe with 18 Dex, a weapon and single weapon style they already get an AC of 4 at level 1. I think Fists only start being a reasonable weapon at level 3 at which point they already have their first AC bonus and should ditch the melee weapon. At level 7 they should already have an AC of 1.
Regardless, they're going to be really squishy in BG1 so they'll need someone else drawing attention off of them. They can't be used as a tank, you have to take advantage of their increased walk speed to keep them safe.
But I really don't know if single weapon style apply to fists. Thing is, early BGI they probably WILL use a weapon. They'll have too low damage output for reliable unarmed damage. Speed can be useful, since there is only one pair of speed boots...
Maybe we could give them a small boost to "backstab" ? They can still hide in shadows, even though not often used. Like a +2 to hit and damage, or a free stun effect. Not a multiplifier effect like thief, but a bonus nonetheless.
Disarm trap could also be given, since I think they say in the manual description that they can detect/disarm traps.
@Cheesebelly they can switch to thief magical weapons ^^ But yeah, Kit specifics items must find their ways...
Single weapon style doesn't apply to fists, that's why I say they need a weapon. At levels 1-2 fists are pretty crappy anyway.
I think I'd rather low level Monks be buffed through equipment than through abilities.
Beserkers, on the other hand, are way too powerful for BG1. I would stiffen your level requirements for immunities during enrage to 5, 7, 9, 12. I recently soloed a beserker through Tutu and it was probably the most straightforward playthrough I've ever done.
The 'spirit animal' ability is very overpowered too ( just unleash it on the ankheg map and watch the xp accumulate).
It takes buffing and consumables, but a paladin kit with protection from evil + a potion of speed & solid entry level gear can do the job with Imoen shooting from afar. It's not guaranteed to work, but you've got a good 50-50 chance.
THIEF KITS
Bounty hunter :
Their biggest advantage is that of having special snares, that they can set from a distance. Now, snares not only are quite powerful in BG2 (considering 5 spike traps kill EVERYTHING, Demogorgon and Amelyssan included). Their special snare though can be set from a distance, killing some opponents that didn't even see you coming yet. With a simple potion of haste, 5 normal snares and a way to trigger Drizzt from afar, a Bounty hunter can almost kill the legendary hero, to then sprint away and give a lethal blow with a thrown special snare.
Suggestions :
Snares should be slightly weaker from the starting point of Candlekeep, or at least that's what I believe. I am not saying a permanent weakening, neither the removal of special snare throwing (although it IS cheesy) I am at a bit stuck here though. What do you think a proper Bounty hunter (and thief in general) rebalance should be, which is of course fair?
Assassin :
Biggest bonus come from the septuple backstab damage, something that you never hit in Baldur's Gate 1. Coating the blades with poison is neat, but I feel like it's nothing that could unbalance the game too much. By the time the coating would actually KILL someone, you'd probably take care of all the problems anyway.
Suggestions :
The 15% distribution per level is a big blow in my opinion, especially to PC assassins early on. You would almost need a second thief in your party to compensate for the lacks of expertise your own Assassin would possess (considering that as an assassin, you'd easily expect that you'd use hide in shadows way more often than detect illusion)
So here I have a doubt - should an item with some little thieving bonuses be introduced in the game, perhaps assassin only, to keep their edge? Otherwise I have the feeling that their disadvantage is greater than their advantage (especially, as I said, early on)
Swashbuckler :
Almost a fighter/thief multiclass, or a thief on steroids I guess, and for me personally my favorite kit in the game. Bonuses are neat, 1 AC bonus, +1 to hit and damage bonus every 5 levels.
Suggestions :
Every 5 levels is a big gap, big enough to keep the swashie well balanced inside out. It might be one of those classes that don't really need any rebalance at all. Correct me if I am wrong though.
BARD KITS
Blade :
The spins. Need I say more? One of the most peculiar yet awesome active abilities of all class kits, the spins are able to make a blade a steady killing machine or a tank waiting for opponents to come.
Suggestions :
As it is, currently the Offensive spin is basically the Kensai's Kai, Haste and damage and to hit bonus all together. I have no idea what way you could balance such a powerful ability, but keeping in mind - a blade on level 1 is not only unable to wear helmets, but also can't really hit properly and nor has the health to just go around killing whatever he or she likes. So I feel like the Offensive spin, so early on, is not a big advantage at all.
Defensive spin is basically 1 AC bonus per Blade's level, plus the "improved invisibility" effect, which makes him untargetable by spellcasters. Once again though, the bonus is not a big deal early on in the game, as the blade CAN'T move and therefore is forced to face opponents with not too many bonuses.
As it is currently, I have the feeling that the blade needs actually a slight upgrade, not through abilities, but rather through items gained. An Elven armor which would ensure spellcasting in it would grant a big enough bonus for all bards in general. Ideas?
Jester :
The "offensive" singer, if you want to call it like that, the Jester's bard song is changed into confusing enemies instead of helping allies. Big deal? Quite a lot in fact.
Suggestions :
A Jester can easily confuse ANYTHING in Baldur's Gate 1. I've tried it on most party-based battles (the Amazons, the rag-tag band in the Basilisk area, the mercenaries at Gullykin). The formula is simple - cast invisibility, run in the middle of the group, sing. The invisibility doesn't wear off. The Disadvantage is that any death caused by confusion won't earn you any XP, but being able to tear enemies into insanity without engaging in combat is kind of a big deal. I don't personally know of a good idea to render it less effective, or more balanced. Perhaps the XP loss is already all the balance it needs, this I can't say. But once again, I am in a bit of a stand still at the moment. Thoughts?
I am still researching the Skald a bit right now. As it is currently, I don't see why the Skald would get a big rebalance, since the advantages of the Skald come much later on in the game.
This way other kits won't be "Kensai-lite" hahahah.
If they set up the mage as in wow or something like that I think i'l boikot the hole game. FAH! This is forgotten realms, and in forgotten realms mages ARE WEAK!
But if the rouge is the one attacking, he can actually take out an figher if the figher has been unluky whit his health (low hp throw on lvl up)
I hate all this fuss about making the game balanced. There is no balance between an mage and an fighter, and there should not be. this is not an wow game where all races,classes shall be able to defet eatch other. Here eatch classes has an role witch the are great for, and thats that
;-P
I love playing bg1 as an mage, make it so mutch more fun beeing that weak( i also play whit 7 in constitution, so my hp is low, very low.)
More utility for the different classes would be nice though.
A kit represents experience and specialization, you have none of these when you start off in candlekeep, so it makes even less sense from a story perspective to have level 1 kits. The only *good* reason I can think of to include kits from level 1 is... well, because it's fun
And it doesn't work at low levels either since where is a low level character going to get a powerful set of armour bracers
It does seem a big overhaul I admit.
If they're going to do anything beyond changing the level that certain powers and such are available, I think that I'd rather they just completely remove the kit from the game.
But then again, I'm not a power gamer, so things that such people look for are not really my thing.
I remember my eldest brother, he throw again and again untill he got an figher whit 18/00 and 18 in every other stats exept wisdom and inteligence. He could use an entire day to manage to get an 18/00 witch was high enough to get the carisma and constitution and dexterity to 18.
Also, it's just about impossible to have all classes balanced at all levels. Many of the most overpowered classes/combos at the end of ToB are kittenishly weak in BG1. Monks are awesome in ToB gear with HLAs, but are cannon fodder until level 12 or so. Ditto for things like cleric/mages, who shine late-game but start slowly. It might be worth looking at some classes/kits like the Monk and rebalancing their early game progression, but this should be about ingame experience not a hypothetical duel.
The main gameplay reason there were kits in BG2 was that you started using their special abilities right away, because characters started at level 8.
The main problem in BG1 is not the inherent balance/imbalance of kits at start (which, let's face it, cannot be addressed perfectly), it's the utter easiness to hack and slash through most fights without any use of special abs or potions, no matter the difficulty level. I remember the first big fight I had was against a certain Greywolf (will not spoil)... But after his defeat, and his loot gained, I was back to easy mode.
I find it silly for, say, a swashbuckler to only gain his +1 bonuses only twice in the game. Better to gain them every +3 level and make good use of them because of harder fights, with harder hitting or more numerous ennemies.
I am well aware that balance should always come at the endgame. That's why the overall gameplay should be affected and not only classe's features.
On a sidenote, this also would add more flavour for soloing, and gets that "challenge" edge the multiplayer needs. I really want an "enhanced edition" of baldur's gate, not just an "official" BGT fixed mod. There is so much potential in this game to seriously threaten other existing rpgs.