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Gorion's skills

ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
edited June 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
I'm kinda new here, but not new to Baldur's Gate ;) And one thing always made me wonder - how is that Gorion, mighty mage, wanderer and (former) adventurer knows only several low-level spells, while having permanent Acceleration? I think the battle should be more like Irenicus vs Demogorgon ;) our Bhaalspawn can reach very high levels late in the game, but still, Gorion should be alot stronger, since he has been adventuring more than . Therefore, Sarevok should have had hard time with Gorion.

What do you think?

Comments

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It would also make more sense if Sarevok and his minions were closer to the end-game strength, to make it more believable that they beat him. Sarevok, for example, should probably have some kind of Globe of Invulnerability effect going on.
  • Space_hamsterSpace_hamster Member Posts: 950
    This is easy, since the attack was before he slept, he had no time to memorize his spells ;)
  • ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
    Ummm, someone THAT experienced should have think of it at the first place, and well, it would be reasonable to think he prepared for such a journey.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Can we also talk about the fact that you can't cast Raise Dead on him? ;)

    I think maybe a robe that doesn't do much more than change your appearance, maybe with a small ability that puts it on par with an Adventurer's Robe, wouldn't be amiss. Anything too potent, though, and you run the risk of unbalancing the low-level adventurer.
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    And where was Elminster...? A half-day too late... You know, I think someone made a thread on reddit for this request- then pretty much abandoned it soon after he created it because it just seemed too risky of spellcasting-overload tackiness. Wouldn't want new players rolling their eyes at overblown spectacles Infinity-Engine-style. Not sure what happened to that thread... *shrugs* As I recall it wasn't very popular. People just hated it. What a terrible idea, they said. And it was decided just to let it rest and a more modest magicfest between Sarevok + cronies v. Gorion might ensue...

    That said, the 1HP Melf Arrow that the evil mage tosses at CHARNAME has to go. I mean... Sarevok's right-hand mage at the time and that's the best she could do? No way... Kill CHARNAME- much more realistic. >:-)
  • MERLANCEMERLANCE Member Posts: 421
    So, give Gorion a dagger +1 and a healing potion and everything is okay then? Then have him maybe Flesh to Stone an ogre (who then explodes) to show off that he was a lot tougher?
  • KoreKore Member Posts: 245
    Surely Sarevok would take the precaution of mutilating the body enough to make it impossible to resurrect and taking any decent loot with him. Why would he give the escaped CHARNAME any advantage?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I still think that before Gorion whips out the knife he should cast Tenser's Transformation.
  • nulspacenulspace Member Posts: 100
    Summon Cacofiend, then follow up with Melf's acid arrow.
  • ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
    edited June 2012
    @Bhryaen Correct me if I'm wrong, but... Well, first of all, that "mage" is Tamoko, and she is a Cleric, as far as I'm concerned. She casts Flame Arrow, not Melf Arrow, and you can speculate she used low level spell just thinking of CHARNAME as a weakling. For instance, when I was playing mage, I used to finish my weak enemies with such spells. Since CHARNAME is Bhaalspawn you can always say she / he was just lucky / protected with her / his divinity. And since Tamoko is seen later in the game, Gorion surely didn't use Insta-death on her :)
  • BhryaenBhryaen Member Posts: 2,874
    @Zakeros
    Looked like a mage robe to me, but then I'd still have to confirm that for myself. Anyway, yes, using a low level spell on a low level opponent sounds about right. Now which form of Flame Arrow is available to clerics, and which form does 1HP damage at even the lowest possible dam roll at the lowest possible caster level? No use of Flame Arrow (nor Melf Arrow) does only 1HP dam, and neither are divine spells. Mind you, I didn't say it was a Melf. I can't tell what 1HP spell she casts, so I called it a "damage burst" spell. And you've been a spellcaster: have you ever used a 1HP spell on an opponent who you needed to make sure you take down? "The Prime Target is fleeing: do the minimum possible damage- quickly!" And why would you bother with the weakling Gorion ward anyway when Gorion's the main opponent to be disabled? And why not cast an AoE spell just behind Gorion and the fleeing CHARNAME to nab both with one stone? Unless you're a cleric and shouldn't be casting arcane spells anyway...

    But OK, say we have such a low level arcane cantrip type of damage spell, and we decide to use it on low level opponents. What level of opponent is Sarevok & Co.? Is it a good idea to stick to low level spells for that type of opponent? Would a high level mage do that? Mind you, I was being a little facetious regarding Gorion's targeting of the mage first: probably a good tactical decision anyway- all 1HP cantrips aside. His insta-death spell might have been a good call on his part. The subsequent reliance on Level 2, single-target spells thereafter, however... not so tactically savvy. Probably not the sense he had when he bested Firkraag. But maybe he underestimated them, right? We underestimate opponents too at times, even with the lives of the entire party at stake. And what happens? We say, "Uh oh," and switch immediately to the heavy guns. But Gorion had something else up his sleeve in that situation: a switchblade. Gorion's the original gangsta.

    Oh, and since Gorion's insta-death spell didn't exactly chunk the mage-like alleged-Tamoko, at least there we can safely presume Sarevok shoulders the body to get it Raised at the Temple of Lathander nearby for irony. No biggie stretch.

    Only a very myopic (worse than I even) or inexperienced player could miss the large quantity of meh that's employed in that heavy-handed cutscene battle to carry it from Point A to Point B. Doesn't mean it's not charming though! And you still walk away inevitably with the right idea- Gorion's dead, you're on your own, some big evil dude with glowing eyes and a funny helmet and a great voice is out to get you, and he has ogre berserkers for friends, and what great music and a great narration sequence. So as much as the cutscene is clunky... It's still BG. :-) It's only a short little battle sequence in a game of many hours, it's not a Hollywood production, and it's not misleading or broken. And if instead it were full of drawn-out glitzy Firkraag-level spellcasting spam, the sequence would quickly swing to the other side where the player with their humble little Level 1 CHARNAME is left at the end of it with a wtf look on their face. If it has to be one or the other, I'd side with the original, and in the rework that's to be done I do hope it will stay much more on the original side of the spectrum.
  • ZakerosZakeros Member Posts: 75
    @Bhryaen

    What if she didn't use any spell at all? there are wands. There are abilities. What if hers deals massive damage to every single creature EXPECT Bhaalspawns / CHARNAME races / classes? Or maybe the wand got broken? Or maybe deals damage that vary from 1 to 100 and our CHARNAME is just lucky enough (he's son of a God after all)? Remember, when it comes to roleplaying, you can always find a way around. Maybe she was sure she'd get CHARNAME with this fire arrow (I didn't mean YOU said it was melf, it was pointed at someone else :P) but something went wrong? Maybe the presence of mighty Gorion gave some protection?

    About Gorion's stupid assault with the "knife" - check out my first post, I agree with you, that he should have used hell of a stronger spells later, after releasing several decoying missiles.

    And finally, kicking-ass scene, where Gorion uses spells that'd make Firkraag poop in his dragonpants - many games are showing powerful characters in the beginning, showing, what protagonist can achieve in the future. And I'm not saying about TS'ing and casting 20 AOEs or spamming with various spells. Just... A LITTLE bit more impressive.
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    Casting magic missles only... come on, Gorion should have casted more powerful spells. Sarevok should have been stronger, too. One explanation for that cheesy battle could be that all the participants(Gorion, Sarevok, Tamoko and the ogres) had battled the a night before without resting... This could be explained somewhere in notes or journal left by Gorion in the EE.
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    edited August 2012
    @Bhryaen : isn't what a magic spectaclefest Infinity Engine style done very close to the beginning of BG2, followed by a silly "cinematic" where Irenicus casts a spell for 20 seconds to unleash it at an already petrified (therefore dead) Cowled wizard?

    Naw, if I did it, I would make Gorion cast 4 Mordekainen swords followed by a chain lightning and a firestorm, cast improved haste+stoneskin+absolute immunity + Holy power + Draw upon holy might + Righteous magic, followed by a black blade of disaster while summoning a planetar.

    He would then critically miss the next 35 turns as Sarevok bashes everything to death. THAT'S how it should be done!
  • AlkaluropsAlkalurops Member Posts: 269
    Gorion uses low level, low casting time spells to keep Sarevok busy so you can escape. What do you think would happen if Gorion took the time to cast a globe of invulnerability? Spell casting failure. Besides, that wouldn't help much against Sarevok's sword, would it?

    If Gorion thought he could beat Sarevok, he wouldn't bother getting you to safety.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Better thought; why didn't Gorion cast Teleport? He's about a level 9ish mage, he should have it. Unless Conjuration is his opposition school. That'd be silly.

    I think everything here can be explained with: The Power of Plot killed him. Alas!
  • AurenRavidelAurenRavidel Member Posts: 139
    I won't make any excuses for his spells, but since the encounter with Sarevok takes place during a stormy night and the next time you have control of your character it's a sunny day, you could certainly rationalize his lack of good equipment as Sarevok and Tamoko looting him of his worthwhile items and not bothering with the other stuff.
  • CloutierCloutier Member Posts: 228
    The cutscene would be better if Gorion's demise were justified by him teleporting away the PC, at the expense of his own life.
  • Washcloth_RepairmanWashcloth_Repairman Member Posts: 35
    @Cloutier That's the first post on this topic (even in other threads) that I've liked. I mean, sure, the fact that Gorion only uses a handful of low-level spells is kind of silly, but so is the idea of Sarevok beating Gorion at all. The first BG only brings you to what, around lv7 (it's been a long time)? If Sarevok was lv20 then the Bhaalspawn would never beat him at the end of the game.

    Anyway, I do like your idea of Gorion teleporting you away and dying in the proccess. That would be a good explenation.
  • IchigoRXCIchigoRXC Member Posts: 1,001
    @Washcloth_Repairman Sarevok is a level 15 fighter at the end of BG1 if I remember correctly.
  • Twilight_FoxTwilight_Fox Member Posts: 448
    '' Surely Sarevok would take the precaution of mutilating the body enough to make it impossible to resurrect and taking any decent loot with him. Why would he give the escaped CHARNAME any advantage? ''

    - Exactly, let just suppose that Sarevok dismembered Gorion, decapitated him and loot is valuable.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Bhryaen said:

    Naw, if I were Gorion with all the mage power he had at his beckon, I'd do just as he did. Having to think fast, first I'd cast an insta-death spell on Sarevok's mage since with those powerful 1HP damage bursts she was throwing at CHARNAME clearly she was the immediate threat. Only Gorion ever knew that insta-death spell too, so, down it goes with him. Then I'd use a lightning bolt on his ogre berserkers which I'd somehow ricochet at a 90 degree angle to get both of them. Gorion's good like that. Then I'd fall back on my most formidable arsenal: Melf's Acid Arrows and Magic Missiles. Yeah. It's called tactics, people. It's how you beat Firkraag in BG2 if you didn't notice. Now, of course those spells won't be enough, so what I'd do last is brandish a dagger and take on the massive armoured figure in a knife fight... in my skimpy mage robes. A good 400 or so swings might get me enough attack rolls of 20 to finish him off. Haven't done the math yet. So. Clearly Gorion did his best. It's all you can hope for.

    Fortunately Sarevok at first just stands there, not even trying to rush Gorion. That's how confident he is in being able to withstand Gorion's hurricane of 2nd level spells (plus the insta-death one which is a 10th level spell surely).

    "Huh," grunts Sarevok as he chops down your foster father... Well, at least they're going to redo that fight scene somewhat...

    I almost died...
  • KhamillKhamill Member Posts: 226
    Hey...Did anyone thought that maybe he just wanted to die?! He was old, sick, tired and fed up! He raised bhaalspawn kid, and probably didn't want to know what path the kid will follow...
    Or he simulate his death so he can appear in BG3:) ...as an Evil Father "Gore"Jon.
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