Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

[Spoilers !] Fate of the people found in the Candlekeep Catacombs ?

Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
Hey there,

Has anyone else wondered what is the real fate of all the people mimicked by the dopplegangers in the catacomb ?

Since they could not have killed Elminster, Thetoril, and Gorion (for obvious reasons), do you think the other characters are still alive (we don't have explicit informations of their demise) ?

Or were they dopplegangers from the start of the game (even though they do not transform at the beginning so that you are not spoiled from the plot) ?

I guess this should even be creepier if it was so ;-)


SCARY_WIZARDJason_SilverainSophia

Comments

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    edited December 2012
    It's an interesting unanswered question. I think possibly most of the candlekeep residents are dead (for example, go exploring candlekeep itself when you get back).

    But in bg2, a bunch of dopplegangers copy your party while you are still alive too.

  • Jason_SilverainJason_Silverain Member Posts: 38
    I tried using detect evil on everyone and only the dopplegangers came up as such so I would personally like to believe that you arrived at just the right time to prevent further dopplegangers from spreading.
    However I suspect several of the watchers must be dopplegangers considering the comment you get when you try to enter the barracks.

    Honestly I'd just find it depressing if everyone was dead afterwards.

    Sophialolien
  • State_LemmingState_Lemming Member Posts: 375
    I always assumed they were alive and the dopplegangers were just screwing with you, but if you'd like to add some darkness to the story with a visual of Phlydia and Dreppin being eaten alive, that;s cool too. :P

    MERLANCElunar
  • Boston1112Boston1112 Member Posts: 19
    I'd like to assume that most of the people are dead. In the crypts, there are huge piles of dead bodies. Considering that this is under Candlekeep, I would have assumed that the crypts would have been ordered, with bodies buried in coffins or tombs, not haphazardly strewn about. I usually attributed that to the work of the dopplegangers, slowly killing off the residents of Candlekeep and then hiding their bodies in the crypts. Additionally, as you progress throughout the dungeon you also find out that the dopplegangers set up torture chambers. In regards to the dopplegangers copying the big E: high level dopplegangers can copy living people.

    My pet theory is that way back when Gorion first told you to run from Candlekeep the dopplegangers were starting to kill of and replace the Inn's population. In a way, I considered it your brother's first way of trying to kill you. After the big E and Gorion get wind of this, they try to get you the heck out of the library; unfortunately, the dopplegangers in Candlekeep alert your brother to this plan and he manages personally cut you off and kill Gorion.

    I actually prefer my pet theory to how it actually plays out in the game: far as I'm unconcerned, with out a theory like this the whole Candlekeep sequence develops a couple of big plot holes. Frankly, I actually think that there should be a mod which shines some more light on the situation.

    Jason_SilverainAllbrotherartastrophelolien
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,551
    ajwz said:

    It's an interesting unanswered question. I think possibly most of the candlekeep residents are dead (for example, go exploring candlekeep itself when you get back).

    But in bg2, a bunch of dopplegangers copy your party while you are still alive too.

    when was this?

  • swnmcmlxiswnmcmlxi Member Posts: 297

    ajwz said:

    It's an interesting unanswered question. I think possibly most of the candlekeep residents are dead (for example, go exploring candlekeep itself when you get back).

    But in bg2, a bunch of dopplegangers copy your party while you are still alive too.

    when was this?
    A wilderness encounter.

    lolien
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,471



    Has anyone else wondered what is the real fate of all the people mimicked by the dopplegangers in the catacomb ?

    IIRC, the game does indicate at some point that people who have been "doppleganged" have already been killed.

    Of course, BG2 backed off of this somewhat... but then, BG2 screwed up a lot of the original script. I believe the original intention of the makers was to imply that the inhabitants of Candlekeep had been killed.

    Or were they dopplegangers from the start of the game (even though they do not transform at the beginning so that you are not spoiled from the plot) ?

    No, IMO. I always thought the implication was that Sarevok had infiltrated the keep while you were away and turned the inhabitants into dopplegangers to trap you upon your return. The inhabitants do act noticeably stranger upon your return.

    Sophia
  • SophiaSophia Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 581
    I've always wondered what happened to everyone, expecially because in BG2 Imoen asks you if you would like to come back to Candlekeep, and if you answer that without Gorion there was nothing left she respond that everyone else are still there :O

    And I always thought "is she crazy?? They were all doppleganger, there's no one left in Candlekeep :("

  • Jason_SilverainJason_Silverain Member Posts: 38
    edited December 2012

    I'd like to assume that most of the people are dead. In the crypts, there are huge piles of dead bodies. Considering that this is under Candlekeep, I would have assumed that the crypts would have been ordered, with bodies buried in coffins or tombs, not haphazardly strewn about. I usually attributed that to the work of the dopplegangers, slowly killing off the residents of Candlekeep and then hiding their bodies in the crypts. Additionally, as you progress throughout the dungeon you also find out that the dopplegangers set up torture chambers. In regards to the dopplegangers copying the big E: high level dopplegangers can copy living people.

    However it should be noted that there are also Ghasts/Ghouls in the tombs who could of been removing bodies from the crypts to eat, lets not forget that there is evidence that people have been trying to get into Candlekeep through the caves beneath it so many of those bodies could be from mercenaries attempting to either enter Candlekeep to assassinate the Player Character or to clear a path for the assassination of the Iron Throne Leaders.

    Regarding the torture Chambers I think they are more for the dissection of the dead rather than torture as a Greater Doppleganger could just use its Consume Identity ability
    http://www.roleplaynexus.com/greaterdoppleganger.html

    However here are some issues:
    Consume Identity ability:
    -- After consuming a victim's identity, you can assume the victim's form with 100% accuracy and possess the victim's memories, abilities, and alignment. --

    This would negate my Detect Evil argument however our reasoning behind us suspecting people are dopplegangers is due to their strange behaviour beforehand. This is inconstant with the information since there's no reason they would be so strange in their general behaviour and as the Dopplegangers that do attack you are detected as evil I have to make the assumption that this rule isn't been strictly followed.

    --Memories from previously consumed identities that have been forced out by new identities fade quickly.--
    This might explain why Phlydia is acting so strange and is one of the few people I do consider been a doppleganger but again no blip on the Detect Evil. The doppleganger assuming her form may of acquired an addition form for the upcoming assassination but maybe was forced to continue using the Phlydia at the time.

    --If you "wear" one of your assumed identities and commit an act that runs counter to that form's alignment, you are immediately reverted to your normal form for 1d10 rounds.--
    This would explain why all the dopplegangers have to transform before attacking but considering werewolves also explode out of their current form I think this is a game engine issue.

    My pet theory is that way back when Gorion first told you to run from Candlekeep the dopplegangers were starting to kill of and replace the Inn's population. In a way, I considered it your brother's first way of trying to kill you. After the big E and Gorion get wind of this, they try to get you the heck out of the library; unfortunately, the dopplegangers in Candlekeep alert your brother to this plan and he manages personally cut you off and kill Gorion.

    Its a nice theory and one I've considered myself but why not just kill you before you leave themselves rather than send the incompetent pair of assassins Shank and Carbos, unless they were under strict orders not to reveal themselves (though at this point Sarevok had no advanced plans to kill the Iron Throne Leaders there).

    I actually prefer my pet theory to how it actually plays out in the game: far as I'm unconcerned, with out a theory like this the whole Candlekeep sequence develops a couple of big plot holes. Frankly, I actually think that there should be a mod which shines some more light on the situation.

    Actually I think I can help here regarding the plot holes as I find Ulraunt behaviour very suspicious.
    Ulraunt had already been almost seduced by the power of Cyric in the past and has a great disdain for the PC due to his origins (Also considering some of the things the PC did as a child somewhat of an embarrassment to Candlekeep's proud reputation) as well as been one of the few people in Candlekeep who knows of them. In addition he is one of the few people who can authorize entrance to Candlekeep without a Tome and has access and knowledge of the crypts including how to open the warded and sealed door.

    Finally he is willing to condemn the PC to a death sentence on the word of single person with no evidence (providing you didn't accept the ring), accuses you of been Amnish spy even though he knows you can't possibly be one and that the troubles on the Sword Coast started before you even left.
    I also suspect that he isn't stupid enough to fall for the "Koveras" alias especially when Tethtoril instantly realises it and notes that Sarevok has been not seen since he came to Candlekeep and there's no record of him leaving.

    I believe that Shank and Carbos entered Candlekeep by pretending to be servants of a visiting noble (perhaps one of the nobles had been replaced by doppleganger on his way to Candlekeep), though it is possible but unlikely at this point that Ulraunt himself allowed them in discretely seeing them as a way of removing the PC.
    It has been suggested that may even be possible that Ulraunt is the one who informed Sarevok of Gorions planned departure but again I find his level of involvement unlikely. Though it would explain how the dopplegangers are not discovered later (even when you kill a few of them) and how they got past the heavily warded and seal door to the crypts.

    Later after Gorions death Ulraunt (if not already responsible for Shank and Carbos) would of either blamed the PC or felt no further obligation towards them. (mostly likely both) So when they meet again in the cells even though he suspects the truth he decides to imprison you and use the opportunity to have you killed, either for your origins or if he is Cyric worshiper it is an opportune moment to do so without suspicion. Remember at this Cyric at this time holds the portfolio of murder and disposing of a Baalspawn of rising notoriety that shows growing significant ability would definitely grant you some favour. (especially in this manner Cyric been the god of lies and deception)

    So Ulraunt is either:
    a) A Secret Cyric worshiper taking advantage of the the situation.
    b) As a) but partially involved with Sarevok.
    c) Wants you dead for your origins.
    d) Actually right because you were foolish and killed the Iron Throne in Candlekeep.
    e) Blames you for Gorions death and simply will not look further into events through pettyness.

    My one issue I have with my own sequence of events is the lack of information of the relationship between Ulraunt and Gorion, from the cutscene it was one of grudging respect (initially at least) however this was when the PC at a very young age. I believe that as Gorion settled down becoming a permanent fixture at Candlekeep his popularity grew a proud and haughty mage like Ulraunt would only become jealous and resentful of his presence.

    Finally resuming the original purpose of the thread here is my list of possible dopplegangers:
    Phlydia: She seems far too disorientated to be normal.
    Reevor: His reaction is just somewhat too hostile when he sees you again, also control over the storeroom could be useful.
    Jondalar: His position as a higher ranking guard makes him a target.

    People who I think its unlikely but possible:
    Hull and Fuller: While there are dopplegangers amongst the watchers I doubt these two are, just from the conversation they seem honestly happy to see you and why bother replacing the standard rank and file? Higher ranking guards like Jondalar are better target and are fewer in number requiring less dopplegangers to be effective, they also can force the normal guards to leave the barracks whenever they need it.
    Winthrop: Again like Hull and Fuller he seems perfectly like himself and while having control over inn may help Winthrop is too recognisable, his presence from the bar would be missed and it would be strange to see him anywhere else. The doppleganger would be trapped in his role as the barkeep till late night.
    Dreppin: Unless he saw something unusual replacing him would have no benefit.

    Post edited by Jason_Silverain on
    Allbrotherartastrophe
Sign In or Register to comment.