Swashbuckler / fighter
Juomari
Member Posts: 7
so, i intend to make swashbuckler / fighter dual-class, because :
- i don't like to play full thief with sneaky - backstab things.
- there is not really any good npc full thief classes in the game, atleast not evil ones ( i hate monteron / xzar combo, and tiax is so late in the game, not to mention there is no evil thieves in BG2 )
- yet, thief is quite essential for party because you need lockpicker and someone to disarm traps, pickpocket is useful time to time too, but that's not why i want to make one.
My question is 3 sided.
1. at what level i should dualclass ? i was thinking either 10 or 15 because you get swashbuckler bonuses every 5th level, so naturally i would dualclass only at BG2:ee if it comes.
2. how much you need lockpick / detect trap skill in BG2 so you're able to disarm most traps and open locks with master thief potion ? as i intend to export my BG1:ee char to BG2:ee ( if that is possible, or if they intend to make bg2:ee )
3. is this just horrible idea ? can swashbuckler / fighter combo work or is it just a waste ?
- i don't like to play full thief with sneaky - backstab things.
- there is not really any good npc full thief classes in the game, atleast not evil ones ( i hate monteron / xzar combo, and tiax is so late in the game, not to mention there is no evil thieves in BG2 )
- yet, thief is quite essential for party because you need lockpicker and someone to disarm traps, pickpocket is useful time to time too, but that's not why i want to make one.
My question is 3 sided.
1. at what level i should dualclass ? i was thinking either 10 or 15 because you get swashbuckler bonuses every 5th level, so naturally i would dualclass only at BG2:ee if it comes.
2. how much you need lockpick / detect trap skill in BG2 so you're able to disarm most traps and open locks with master thief potion ? as i intend to export my BG1:ee char to BG2:ee ( if that is possible, or if they intend to make bg2:ee )
3. is this just horrible idea ? can swashbuckler / fighter combo work or is it just a waste ?
0
Comments
1) I don't know. If you wait for level 15 it'll be a long time to get your thief skills back. So you might wanna see if you have all your thief skills covered by 10.
3) It should work pretty well. It's almost like playing a multiclass Fighter/Thief then dual classing to fighter. So you're getting a good jump on the whole fighter thing.
I personally prefer a MC Fighter/thief. You don't sacrifice the high-end abilities of either class, meaning you get all the APR bonuses and HP of a fighter, as well as great backstab ability and support thief skills. You could also get either HLA in TOB, so the last time I ran a F/T in BG2 I wound up getting 4.5 APR of backstabs once I got the assassination HLA, much better than a 10-swing round from Whirlwind. All you miss out on is Grandmastery...
Will you have fun with your character?
If yes, play him.
It's worth noting your suggested build requires you to be in BG2 before you'd ever multi-class. Just saying. If you're going to 15 before switching, you may as well just stay a swashbuckler besides.
And considering Imoen as a level 7 thief can open any lock or disarm any trap in the entirety of BG1 or BG2 or even Throne of Bhaal (although occasionally with a little assistance from a Potion of Master Thievery), don't stress it. You "need" like 90 in find traps and 85 in open locks. If you can't pop a lock, recruit your wizard to throw Knock at it.
I'd personally just stay a swashbuckler....Dual-wield 2 speed weapons in the sequel and you'll be almost as good as a fighter for trash (max 4 1/2 attacks, instead of a potential 5 like a fighter could with the same gear, basically 1 less attack under IH, but each deals a lot more damage) (in fact, most enemies except the handful that require +4 or above to hit and you can always throw on the staff of the ram+6 or IMoD with UAI, hit WW and beat those to death). Your Thac0 ends up about the same as cleric which is fine (Fighter's are actually overkill where thac0 is concerned), and the extra bonus damage per hit will actually make you hit harder then a fighter, since raw str becomes irrelevant once str belts appear (and dualing TO a fighter won't change your str anyway, both could end up with 19 at the end of BG1).
You can specialize already, and while you get profs at a slower rate, it's actually fine (you really only need scimitars **, Two-weapon ** to be honest (maybe adding a point in SS at the beginning of the sequel since it'll take awhile before you can wield both speed scimitars, and Kuudane (Speed short sword) can be acquired pretty early).
That means you can max all the thief skills while still technically being basically a fighter. ALso, lock and trap xp is determined by the level of the thief in the sequel, and becomes pretty substantial at higher levels. And having 100 DI is always nice...and traps...and optional stealth if you really don't wanna have to fight something..and high pickpockets is always nice for a cheap bastard.
Armor isn't that big an issue after the first little bit, since your innate AC bonus will eventually out strip even the best heavy armors while still wearing leather (The shadow armor at lvl 10 would have almost the same AC as ankheg plate, and it just keeps going up from there...by the time you got something ridiculous like Grandmaster's Armor, Fighter with the best armor AND shields would have trouble equalling you in AC, and you'll have a fair amount of bonus damage above them still)
I mean at the end of the day...the only reason I personally don't like swashbucklers is cause they can't backstab (which I find enjoyable) or set up some some ridiculously complex, yet awesome to watch trap show (NOT pre-battle trap cheese) like a BH.
And as above, even if the fighter is using the unnerfed prof chart, the swashy only has a potential 1/2 attack less but will hit for....the same or more damage, while wielding 2 speed weapons. Which with 9 attacks vs 10 will actually out damage a fighter with the same gear. By a fair amount. Especially at higher levels when the damage bonus grows beyond what a fighter could get with GM.
And you'll have missed out on most of the extra fighter hp by the time you dual'd basically removing any actual benefit to dualing in the first place..a little bit more largely wasted thac0, some extra unnesscary weapon profs, MUCH slower leveling speed. You'd get some decent HLA about of the bargain I guess, but the thief HLA are just so much better...imo... (UAI, and greater evasion especially.....a couple epic traps, time stop traps are pretty nice if you wanna have a little 1 v 1 with final boss, Bonus boss, or The Super Monk, or just wipe them out with spike traps...and any extra points in Whirlwind attack just in-case...though simply being improve hasted is better since it's only 1 attack less, but no penalty)
basicly reason why i tought to dual-class at lvl10 was these :
- able to use platearmors WHILE having swashbuckler's +3 to armor ( ofcourse, only in boss fights otherwise leather )
- able to grandmaster in weapons for thac0 and speed.
- as far as i know, fighters get more hp / level.
what do i exacly miss if i dualclass ? is there some bonuses i don't know about in the endgame for swashbuckler ?
wow... now i'm even more confused ;D but basicly having 100 in lockpick and detect traps is enought to clear anything in game with potion of master thievery ?
I think you can use any armor with an HLA called Use Any Item which basically lets you use any item of the game(excluding those with ability score restrictions).
LVL40(8m XP) Swashbuckler bonus is +8 AC, +8 hit and damage which is more than enough to compensate for grandmastery of weapons. More HP is nice but unless you're making your Swashbuckler/Fighter the main tank, it's uses are minimal.
And having 100 Detect illusions will eliminate any need for your casters to keep true sight or waste dispels only on illusions, since you could wipe them all away instantly just by toggling find traps for a second or two (requires armors that allow usage of thief skills though) and go back to fighting.
But..as mentioned earlier...the extra hit from GM (or fighter levels in general) is unnecessary and weapon speed is useless...you're mostly like NOT going to be using a halberd..and anything else (not counting non-magical weapons) will have an effective speed of 0 (can't go any lower) already. WEapon speed does not give extra attacks..it simply lets you begin attacking sooner in a round (and if you have 9-10 attacks your weapon speed is 0 by default).
1: Thaco down to 0 (base thaco 2 + swash bonus) - Swashbucker at the same exp would be 6.
2: Can get grandmastery and three points in 2H weapon style, and base attacks of 2 - Swashbuckler can't get the mastery bonuses and doesn't improve it's base attacks.
3: +2 to damage and -3 to ac - Swash gets +4 to damage and -5 to ac.
4: Saves of 3/5/4/4 - Swash is 8/4/7/11/5
5: 250 thief points to spend - Swash has many many more
6: Fighter HLAs - Swash gets Rogue + WW ones.
7: Swash has about 4 more base HP (from the extra levels - the 2 vs 3 bonus per level 10 plus)
8: Can use better armor before UAI kicks in.
Am I missing things here? Because it seems that the advantages of the Swash/Fighter are significant. Grandmastery bonuses, better thaco, better saves, still enough thief points to use when needed. At a cost of a couple of HP, +2 damage and -2 AC.
Granted once you enter ToB these lessen, as HLAs like UAI are great and so forth, but prior to that I would think that a Swash/Fighter has a pretty good argument going for it? The real question is getting the Fighter leveled up to 11 and how long that takes you, I would think.
OP you can always make a multiclass F/T and EEkeep in the Swashbuckler. OP, OP and away!
I still don't think waiting to level 10 or 15 makes sense cause it takes SOOO long to get your skills back. The wait from level 6->7 as a fighter was long enough! Not worth it for an extra point of damage and AC...
If you don't care for the loss of backstab, I'd keep being a Swashbuckler till the end. They get the best HLAs anyway. If you still want to dual, do it at lvl 10. But I like the dual F->T a bit more.
To summarise the differences as you have done is cursory.
assasin7->fighter will be great with poison weapon(even bows) and fighter skill
like bow/long sword/1h weapon for range/close combat fast switch
or berserker7->thief you will have rage with immunities
You can detect traps and lllusions in heavy armor. The bonuses are great for fighters. Pretty much you just get slightly lower health in exchange for detection skills and more AC, THAC0 and Damage. And the ability to use certain thief items.
When it comes to evil thieves I agree with you, there are too few immediately available. However, I usually get Shar-Teel and dual her to Thief at level 3. She is without a doubt the best backstabber in the game and perfectly evil.
If you're picking them for the thief skills rather than the fighting ones dualling to Fighter doesn't make a heap of sense. Better to dual to mage or some such.
i mean +2dmg/+2armor vs UAI/op traps
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