D&D has never needed balance, it has only needed to be playable. The reason there was a huge outcry over 4e was because it was designed to be playable as an MMO, with all that "balance" and homogenized crap.
Agreed on the resting point. If you play the game realistically (in the sense that if you are raiding a dungeon, you won't be resting for 8 hour periods several times on the way through), mages become more selective in their use. Yeah, you get that huge fireball that will nearly wipe out the entire boss encounter, but up until that point the mage kind of stands around in the back maybe flinging small pebbles or darts at enemies while leeching exp.
And also agreed on the Raistlin point. That is just how the D&D/Dragonlance worlds work: Mages are potentially stupidly powerful, but they need to be babysat for much of their careers.
It was stated in another topic of relation to this one. Yes some of the spells are indeed powerful. But some dont exactly follow the 2nd Edition AD&D ruleset. They were changed in flavorable ways to fit the game yet some didnt work exactly as descripted. It is a fact 2nd Edition AD&D is a bit up and down on many aspects, but far as Gary Gygax was aware, the rules are balanced enough to be logical.
Magic is supposed to be heavily contested and must have the right defenses to live through it but yet the mage himself is a one shot wonder kill and needs to be protected himself thats the pros and cons of a mage. Thats the balance soem people dont realize! They complain because one class cant do what another does and expects all classes to be hot shot powerhouses.
Classes and kits arent meant to be balanced to each other. No matter ho you expect it. You just cant balance classes to each other. They are meant to balance say for example, the fighter is meant to protect allies and melee where the mage cannot and the cleric is meant to heal and protect where the thief is meant to do DoTs and Massive backstab kills the balance is each class is helping each other to perform and hide each classes cons from another classes pros. Get the idea of balancing now people?
Take for example a machine. All parts of the machine function to make the system work. Some parts of the machine work harder than other parts and some parts function at velocity speeds yet some are turtle slow but theyre all in the same body of the machine. Now what balances that machine with all these overpowering and nerfed parts one would say? Think about that for a minute? The balance is the system works together to keep the machine going. Each part does its job for the other part to function at full capacity without any drawbacks. The balance is where each part helps one another to keep on going and help each other perform without weakness. If that one part gets way too strong or one part loses its function, the whole machine stalls or it overloads and can cause issues or simply shutdown altogether.
To those who complain about nerfs and overpowers, take the overpowering and nerfing as this. If you think spells are so powerful and insane... How does one help keep the mage being insane with his spells without any weakness of getting killed in melee combat or a breach magic protections removed etc happening on him?
Yes the contingency thing wasnt hardcoded to have only one of each tier learned. But arguably thats the only overpowering thing id say a mage has. Maybe Time stop could use a shorter duration, maybe chromatic orb is cheesy, so on so on. But some spells are meant to be somewhat unfair in a way but they really are not. Thats the trick of magic. Either flinch the mage to lose the cast or find a way to prevent it from affecting you or face the music. The spells will indeed kill you or least leave you critically wounded unless you have protections to resist it.
Every mage lore always says this bit of lore to think about for you complainers. Magic is massively unpredictable energies that must be contained and controlled by such an intelligent sentinent being that is insightful to manipulate the energies to his will and release them onto whatever obstacle stands in their way. They have all the power of the energies to make a simple Nick of a shot to basically blowing up the globe they live on. Magic is infinite yet takes a real intelligent being to master it.
My opinion is some of these complainers take RPGs way too seriously and just arent cut out for these kind of games. I always tell alot of these compaliners to stop playing RPGs and stick with your true genere of games. These people expectt things to be within their comprehension levels or how i say within their intellect to understand a RPG. RPGs are fantasy and are meant to be played in fantastical ways. its all about Imagination and playing the roles right to compensate for each classes and kits pros and cons. Thats the balance people.
Take shooters for example which I find these compaliners are from... You have a pistol. I have a bazzooka. Yes I am always gonna blow you up in one shot, But you have a pistol. I have to make my shot count each time where you got a clip to empty on me. You are more agile than I am and I am encumbered by this hulking monstrosity on my shoulder. The balance is I have to time my shot on you and you have to avoid getting hit by my shot. Make sense now complainers?
Every game will alway shave its pros and cons. If you cant handle them. Then its not your kind of game genere to play in. If you cant understand how equality really works in games and logic.. I say video gaming isnt for you. The fantasy world is too unpredictable for you to control and I suggest sticking to Non Fiction where and you wont have too much to comprehend from and everything is more realistic for you to follow. Welcome to Fantasy people. Imagination is quite a powerful tool and only masterful intelligent minds can control it
PlasticGolems post is even another tidbit of proof. You may just be at that point of the game things are getting too weak for you or simply you arent adjusted to the right difficulty. He is right as I said too. Not all spells follow the AD7d rules. The developers chose to make their own set of 2nd edition rules so they werent copying Gary Gygax's work. I give kudos for PlasticGolem for making another good point to add onto mine
Nah, attempting to learn from a scroll releases it's imbedded magics and your character attempts to accurately inscribe the patterns of magic into his spell book...if it succeeds, you have the spell in your book and can memorize it if you have the capacity...if it fails...the scroll is used up and you have to get another copy to try again...that's all that happens.
And in PnP (2nd ed), mages get to add a new spell of their choice (up to their highest castable level) to their spell book every time they level up with no failure chance. Specialists get a 2nd spell per level, but it has to be from their specialized school.
Also, as mentioned, specialization isn't nearly as gimp'd as it's supposed to be. In addition to all the crap I was griping about in my Arcane magic overhaul thread, they're also supposed to only be able to memorize spells from their chosen school into the extra slot per spell level they get.
One of the things I love about D&D is the teamwork aspect of it. Each of the four basic classes has a critical job to perform that none of the others can do. Melee, traps & locks, healing, and crowd control/dps. It's a very aesthetically pleasing, artistic paradigm.
I think that D&D is at its best when there is a party of four pure classes. Maybe a back-up extra for one or two of the roles if you want six.
It started to lose that pure, aesthetic beauty as a system when multi-classes came into the system. Before long, we had 3rd edition, where almost anything goes, and any character can do anything, and 4th edition has been widely panned for going nuts with the "anything goes" philosophy.
So, no, magic doesn't need nerfing. Baldur's Gate has the best computer D&D-based magic system I've ever seen in a game. And it doesn't diminish the importance of the other roles - fighting, healing, and scouting/disarming/opening.
I wonder if maybe the people who are complaining just really don't want to have to learn the very complex system of magic in the game. That is, maybe they want to just play one of the roles, and to not have to bother learning the other three roles that don't appeal to them. There are plenty of games out that let you do that; in fact, the majority of them let you do that. Baldur's Gate just isn't one of them.
I dunno...I thought Temple of Elemental Evil one upped it, system-wise...since it was actually implemented properly...and god forbid if you squandered your daily spells and tried to rest in a dungeon in that game....
*It's other issues aside of course, but at least the magic system was done right*.
This is my first time playing BG. I've struggled with my mage. 2 spells and she's done and just ends up standing around until I can find a safe place to rest. When I try to rest in a dangerous area I usually end up getting jumped and end up wasting resources. She can't melee for spit and usually takes too much damage when she tries so it's safer to keep her out of the action when her spells are down. I wish wands were more like bows and arrows and could shoot indefinitely with the same chances to hit as arrrows and bullets. A mage needs a sustained ranged attack early in this game. All my melee characters can just plunk away with dozens of arrows or swing a sword all day long but my mage shoots twice and is done. Maybe at higher levels if you really know the game well you can be overpowered but right now my mage is by far the weakest link in my party.
The magic system in BG2 is the best thing about the game. Everything else nowadays that listens to the 'ZOMG this is OP, that is UP, nerf this, buff this, change this do that wah wah wah' ends up being a totally rubbish game.
Look at Dragon Age Origins - the magic system in that game was incredibly powerful, and every other class was completely gimped in comparison to spell casters. All the typical complainers did nothing but whine and whinge about it but they didnt listen and left the lovely overpowered magic system alone.
And thats how it should be. One simply cannot swing a sword, fire a bow or backstab at the same amount of power as a level 9 mage spell. Magic is ... magic. Its uber and powerful and burns everything to a crisp. Swords just stab things, they arent meant to compare.
Hmmm, I might have to play DAO again now.
Strange, Diablo 2 was reasonable balanced between slap n stap thingies and magic, I wish Wizzies of the Cost would do the same, but the thing is that they'r lazy and only really wanna earn easy money.
In BG1 fighters and archers are generally stronger than mages. I don't think it is any more well rounded in that sense than BG2.
I must agree with the Old Man, it's too easy to equip the party with slings and bows thereby shoot everything down, such thing is impossible in BG2 where mages will easily whipe your entire party, if you try the sling and bow trick.
The magic system in BG2 is the best thing about the game. Everything else nowadays that listens to the 'ZOMG this is OP, that is UP, nerf this, buff this, change this do that wah wah wah' ends up being a totally rubbish game.
Look at Dragon Age Origins - the magic system in that game was incredibly powerful, and every other class was completely gimped in comparison to spell casters. All the typical complainers did nothing but whine and whinge about it but they didnt listen and left the lovely overpowered magic system alone.
And thats how it should be. One simply cannot swing a sword, fire a bow or backstab at the same amount of power as a level 9 mage spell. Magic is ... magic. Its uber and powerful and burns everything to a crisp. Swords just stab things, they arent meant to compare.
Hmmm, I might have to play DAO again now.
Strange, Diablo 2 was reasonable balanced between slap n stap thingies and magic, I wish Wizzies of the Cost would do the same, but the thing is that they'r lazy and only really wanna earn easy money.
This is NOT Diablo 2. Might as well give guns and grenades to our party, since Call of Duty has those weapons. Or maybe let CHARNAME one-shot his enemies if he jumps on them, you know, because Mario does that!
This is a game based on Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition. DnD is about group play and having a balanced party. No class can survive if they are solo (talking about PnP). Also, in PnP your mages have really limited spells since you can't rest for 8 hours after every battle. Dungeons are supposed to be cleared in the first try using only the spells you have atm. You know what happens if a Wizard uses all his spells in the first encounter and pwns all his enemies? He will be forced to use a sling for the rest of the dungeon, being pretty much useless. Warriors dont have that problem.
We could change the rules in BG and make it more similar to Diablo 2, but the moment that happens this game will no longer be a DnD 2nd edition game. If you want something like Diablo, go play Diablo 3. If you want something like WoW, go play WoW. If you want a good old-fashioned DnD game, play BG:EE.
Where do you figure that? What are the most powerful classes builds in Diablo 2? FO Sorc and Hammerdin. Magic users...nothing a Barb, druid, assassin, amazon, necromancer can do can compete with that when they instantly kill any thing in hell difficulty with /players 8 turned on in just spamming the same spell over and over, and can do so without limit with a good gear.
All you have to do to make BG more similar to diablo 2 is allow mages and sorcs the ability to cast with no limits at all...yup..balanced.
And technically speaking, if you want to play diablo, go play diablo 2...if you wanna play wow, go play diablo 3...or actual wow...
And any mage worth his salt would carry darts...not a sling...(they're op as hell in PnP..and BG1). But yes, the point remains the same. Blow away all your power in the first encounter..and you'll likely get everyone killed later when you actually get to targets better suited for the spells you wasted for lulz.
@Garrison64, welcome to Dungeons and Dragons! Where mages are designed from the ground up to be an investment in your future!
Early level mages are indeed devastatingly weak in this game. They have to be babysat, and kept out of direct combat at all costs. You get some "save-the-day" spells like Sleep, but they can only be cast once or twice per day. You can use powerful wands, but they run out of charges, so you must conserve "the batteries".
At the highest levels of the game, mages become like gods. But, as the founder of the game, Gary Gygax put it, "survival to that point can be quite a problem."
Check out this trope on TVTropes.com: "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards":
Dungeons and Dragons is literally "your grandfather's roleplaying game". In "our" day, magical rpg classes did not spam spells based on constantly regenerating mana. You had x times per day you could cast spells, based on your level, and that was it. Power spent. We had to conserve those few spells like our lives depended on it, and they did.
So, at the risk of sounding like a classic old man, complete with "we walked to school in zero-degree weather, uphill, in the snow, with wolves chasing us" stories, this is a game from another time. As a "grandfather" aged person, I can tell you that I find our tropes much, much more challenging and satisfying in the end than all the new-fangled, casual, anything goes, just keep left-clicking and shooting, games that all the young whipper-snappers are playing nowadays.
I don't really get why the Diablo's are considered by anyone to be the thing BG should try to become more like. I put Diablo 2 (I guess LoD) down in 2002 and I haven't felt the need to touch it since. Even after playing Torchlight. I haven't had any inclination to play Diablo 3 and given the DRM involved I don't think I will. Likewise I don't get why WoW is brought up, because again these are two different games even if they are both RPG's.
What this game needs, is not toning down of magic.
It simply needs to forbid resting inside dungeons, or in places where it would be impossible to rest properly and prepare yourself to have your spells.
And if you're a smartass who goes outside to rest and then back in - respawn.
There, problem fixed
Or at the very least just make resting inside dungeons have a very high chance of being interrupted. You could try resting, but at an 85%+ failure rate (just a number i'm throwing out ther), you very well may bring your party more harm by trying to rest than you would by just soldiering on and finishing out the dungeon.
If you just had to make mages more challenging to play, in the spirit of the original p&p game, you could also reintroduce material components. I think somebody already mentioned that.
If you had to have a diamond in your inventory every time you cast a Stoneskin, or a Resurrection, you'd start playing a lot more carefully with your mages and clerics. And your warriors and rogues as well, since every Resurrect would cost a diamond.
I've never actually seen a computer RPG where high level casters don't end up severely unbalanced, especially compared to other classes. The AoE damage and crowd control is always going to trump physical damage dealers.
I really wonder why so many people say that. From my experience its more often, that mages are kind of bad in the beginning. Get better in the middle, then get really strong for a while and then either end up beeing as strong as a fighter but with limited magic sources compared to unlimited fighter attacks or they become weaker than fighters.
@Grulo Nothing is set in stone, that's why the Wizzies of the Coast changes lore and their rules, just that I think they got the wrong focus. You speak as if you are the very owner of that buisness and rules everything, yet you are just some random guy making random postulates.
@Grulo Nothing is set in stone, that's why the Wizzies of the Coast changes lore and their rules, just that I think they got the wrong focus. You speak as if you are the very owner of that buisness and rules everything, yet you are just some random guy making random postulates.
Sorry chump, but this 2nd edition IS set in stone. That's why they made 3rd, 4th and 5th edition. So as not to mess with 2nd edition set-in-stone rules.
This is a game based on a PnP game i love (have been playing DnD for 21 years) and it really annoys me when someone who has no clue about the game comes in and cries "buff! nerf!! make this game more similar to Diablotrolololol!!!!".
Anyway, there is no point in arguing here, because this is one of the things the devs definitely CAN'T change. There is no way in hell they are allowed to change 2nd edition rules; i am fairly confident their contract says so.
This is my first time playing BG. I've struggled with my mage. 2 spells and she's done and just ends up standing around until I can find a safe place to rest. When I try to rest in a dangerous area I usually end up getting jumped and end up wasting resources. She can't melee for spit and usually takes too much damage when she tries so it's safer to keep her out of the action when her spells are down. I wish wands were more like bows and arrows and could shoot indefinitely with the same chances to hit as arrrows and bullets. A mage needs a sustained ranged attack early in this game. All my melee characters can just plunk away with dozens of arrows or swing a sword all day long but my mage shoots twice and is done. Maybe at higher levels if you really know the game well you can be overpowered but right now my mage is by far the weakest link in my party.
Just hold on and soon your mage will become awesome. Better in BG2 where a high level mage is walking God of destruction
And how many times can a low level wizard cast this spell?
Six times a day without resting at level 2, thanks to starting off two maps away from Ultimate Arcane power. Later on in BG1 it gets much more reasonable, with only being able to completely trivialise four or five encounters per day, but yeah, Mages and Clerics are both pretty freaking awesome.
Comments
Also, nothing with 1d4 hp is OP, you cretin.
And also agreed on the Raistlin point. That is just how the D&D/Dragonlance worlds work: Mages are potentially stupidly powerful, but they need to be babysat for much of their careers.
Magic is supposed to be heavily contested and must have the right defenses to live through it but yet the mage himself is a one shot wonder kill and needs to be protected himself thats the pros and cons of a mage. Thats the balance soem people dont realize! They complain because one class cant do what another does and expects all classes to be hot shot powerhouses.
Classes and kits arent meant to be balanced to each other. No matter ho you expect it. You just cant balance classes to each other. They are meant to balance say for example, the fighter is meant to protect allies and melee where the mage cannot and the cleric is meant to heal and protect where the thief is meant to do DoTs and Massive backstab kills the balance is each class is helping each other to perform and hide each classes cons from another classes pros. Get the idea of balancing now people?
Take for example a machine. All parts of the machine function to make the system work. Some parts of the machine work harder than other parts and some parts function at velocity speeds yet some are turtle slow but theyre all in the same body of the machine. Now what balances that machine with all these overpowering and nerfed parts one would say? Think about that for a minute? The balance is the system works together to keep the machine going. Each part does its job for the other part to function at full capacity without any drawbacks. The balance is where each part helps one another to keep on going and help each other perform without weakness. If that one part gets way too strong or one part loses its function, the whole machine stalls or it overloads and can cause issues or simply shutdown altogether.
To those who complain about nerfs and overpowers, take the overpowering and nerfing as this. If you think spells are so powerful and insane... How does one help keep the mage being insane with his spells without any weakness of getting killed in melee combat or a breach magic protections removed etc happening on him?
Yes the contingency thing wasnt hardcoded to have only one of each tier learned. But arguably thats the only overpowering thing id say a mage has. Maybe Time stop could use a shorter duration, maybe chromatic orb is cheesy, so on so on. But some spells are meant to be somewhat unfair in a way but they really are not. Thats the trick of magic. Either flinch the mage to lose the cast or find a way to prevent it from affecting you or face the music. The spells will indeed kill you or least leave you critically wounded unless you have protections to resist it.
Every mage lore always says this bit of lore to think about for you complainers. Magic is massively unpredictable energies that must be contained and controlled by such an intelligent sentinent being that is insightful to manipulate the energies to his will and release them onto whatever obstacle stands in their way. They have all the power of the energies to make a simple Nick of a shot to basically blowing up the globe they live on. Magic is infinite yet takes a real intelligent being to master it.
My opinion is some of these complainers take RPGs way too seriously and just arent cut out for these kind of games. I always tell alot of these compaliners to stop playing RPGs and stick with your true genere of games. These people expectt things to be within their comprehension levels or how i say within their intellect to understand a RPG. RPGs are fantasy and are meant to be played in fantastical ways. its all about Imagination and playing the roles right to compensate for each classes and kits pros and cons. Thats the balance people.
Take shooters for example which I find these compaliners are from... You have a pistol. I have a bazzooka. Yes I am always gonna blow you up in one shot, But you have a pistol. I have to make my shot count each time where you got a clip to empty on me. You are more agile than I am and I am encumbered by this hulking monstrosity on my shoulder. The balance is I have to time my shot on you and you have to avoid getting hit by my shot. Make sense now complainers?
Every game will alway shave its pros and cons. If you cant handle them. Then its not your kind of game genere to play in. If you cant understand how equality really works in games and logic.. I say video gaming isnt for you. The fantasy world is too unpredictable for you to control and I suggest sticking to Non Fiction where and you wont have too much to comprehend from and everything is more realistic for you to follow. Welcome to Fantasy people. Imagination is quite a powerful tool and only masterful intelligent minds can control it
And in PnP (2nd ed), mages get to add a new spell of their choice (up to their highest castable level) to their spell book every time they level up with no failure chance. Specialists get a 2nd spell per level, but it has to be from their specialized school.
Also, as mentioned, specialization isn't nearly as gimp'd as it's supposed to be. In addition to all the crap I was griping about in my Arcane magic overhaul thread, they're also supposed to only be able to memorize spells from their chosen school into the extra slot per spell level they get.
This is D&D 2nd edition. If you feel casters are too powerful, then simply don't use any in your party.
Asking for magic nerfs in D&D LOL....
I think that D&D is at its best when there is a party of four pure classes. Maybe a back-up extra for one or two of the roles if you want six.
It started to lose that pure, aesthetic beauty as a system when multi-classes came into the system. Before long, we had 3rd edition, where almost anything goes, and any character can do anything, and 4th edition has been widely panned for going nuts with the "anything goes" philosophy.
So, no, magic doesn't need nerfing. Baldur's Gate has the best computer D&D-based magic system I've ever seen in a game. And it doesn't diminish the importance of the other roles - fighting, healing, and scouting/disarming/opening.
I wonder if maybe the people who are complaining just really don't want to have to learn the very complex system of magic in the game. That is, maybe they want to just play one of the roles, and to not have to bother learning the other three roles that don't appeal to them. There are plenty of games out that let you do that; in fact, the majority of them let you do that. Baldur's Gate just isn't one of them.
*It's other issues aside of course, but at least the magic system was done right*.
This is a game based on Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition. DnD is about group play and having a balanced party. No class can survive if they are solo (talking about PnP). Also, in PnP your mages have really limited spells since you can't rest for 8 hours after every battle. Dungeons are supposed to be cleared in the first try using only the spells you have atm. You know what happens if a Wizard uses all his spells in the first encounter and pwns all his enemies? He will be forced to use a sling for the rest of the dungeon, being pretty much useless. Warriors dont have that problem.
We could change the rules in BG and make it more similar to Diablo 2, but the moment that happens this game will no longer be a DnD 2nd edition game. If you want something like Diablo, go play Diablo 3. If you want something like WoW, go play WoW. If you want a good old-fashioned DnD game, play BG:EE.
All you have to do to make BG more similar to diablo 2 is allow mages and sorcs the ability to cast with no limits at all...yup..balanced.
And technically speaking, if you want to play diablo, go play diablo 2...if you wanna play wow, go play diablo 3...or actual wow...
And any mage worth his salt would carry darts...not a sling...(they're op as hell in PnP..and BG1). But yes, the point remains the same. Blow away all your power in the first encounter..and you'll likely get everyone killed later when you actually get to targets better suited for the spells you wasted for lulz.
Early level mages are indeed devastatingly weak in this game. They have to be babysat, and kept out of direct combat at all costs. You get some "save-the-day" spells like Sleep, but they can only be cast once or twice per day. You can use powerful wands, but they run out of charges, so you must conserve "the batteries".
At the highest levels of the game, mages become like gods. But, as the founder of the game, Gary Gygax put it, "survival to that point can be quite a problem."
Check out this trope on TVTropes.com: "Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards":
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards
Dungeons and Dragons is literally "your grandfather's roleplaying game". In "our" day, magical rpg classes did not spam spells based on constantly regenerating mana. You had x times per day you could cast spells, based on your level, and that was it. Power spent. We had to conserve those few spells like our lives depended on it, and they did.
So, at the risk of sounding like a classic old man, complete with "we walked to school in zero-degree weather, uphill, in the snow, with wolves chasing us" stories, this is a game from another time. As a "grandfather" aged person, I can tell you that I find our tropes much, much more challenging and satisfying in the end than all the new-fangled, casual, anything goes, just keep left-clicking and shooting, games that all the young whipper-snappers are playing nowadays.
If you had to have a diamond in your inventory every time you cast a Stoneskin, or a Resurrection, you'd start playing a lot more carefully with your mages and clerics. And your warriors and rogues as well, since every Resurrect would cost a diamond.
Nothing is set in stone, that's why the Wizzies of the Coast changes lore and their rules, just that I think they got the wrong focus.
You speak as if you are the very owner of that buisness and rules everything, yet you are just some random guy making random postulates.
This is a game based on a PnP game i love (have been playing DnD for 21 years) and it really annoys me when someone who has no clue about the game comes in and cries "buff! nerf!! make this game more similar to Diablotrolololol!!!!".
Anyway, there is no point in arguing here, because this is one of the things the devs definitely CAN'T change. There is no way in hell they are allowed to change 2nd edition rules; i am fairly confident their contract says so.