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Replace encounter difficulty scaling [Spoilers]

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
edited February 2013 in Archive (Feature Requests)
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  1. Replace encounter difficulty scaling [Spoilers]33 votes
    1. Yes. Scaling should be replaced & maximum encounter difficulty should be standard
      45.45%
    2. No. Leave it as it is.
      33.33%
    3. Boo has fur not scales!
      21.21%

Comments

  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 823
    Oops, voted for the wrong category. Actually I think it's probably sensible to leave scaling alone.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    You want to remove the option for making an UNAVOIDABLE fight easier?

    Try this thought experiment: some n00b who just rolled up a brand-new ToB Sorcerer is trying to get through your proposed harder fight. What's your advice to him?
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  • PeteAtomsPeteAtoms Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 140
    I think expanding the functionality of the difficulty slider(s) is the right way to go.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    I'm not really a fan of the options presented.
    1.) I dislike Boo options in every poll...
    2.) Perhaps a slider/ toggle button next to difficulty called "encounter size"? That way everyone could be satisfied.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    An option to toggle this is probably the best solution. However, barring that, I'd much rather have every encounter scaled to maximum difficulty. Missing out on content because I'm playing the game in the "wrong" order is just silly.

    Another example of this is in Watcher's Keep. If memory serves, the first floor is heavily nerfed if your party hasn't reached a certain level when you first enter it, and this causes, among other things, the enemy who drops Foebane to disappear. Seeing as how BG2 is extremely non-linear, I'm fine with there being certain insurmountable challenges in some areas. Just turn around and level up elsewhere.

    Regarding the Illasera scaling: Is she ever even remotely difficult to take down? She's one of the most anticlimactic and easy fights in the entire series, I see no reason to have her at anything but her maximum strength. And nobody should be starting ToB fresh anyway.
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2013
    Nifft said:

    You want to remove the option for making an UNAVOIDABLE fight easier?

    Try this thought experiment: some n00b who just rolled up a brand-new ToB Sorcerer is trying to get through your proposed harder fight. What's your advice to him?

    Why would a noob start with Throne of Bhaal? Why wouldn't start at least from BG2?

    And the Sorcerer is probably the most powerful class in the game. The noob only has to pick Time Stop, which is a no-brainer (unless the xp you get is not enough for it) and then take out Ilhassera with whatever spells.

    The BG games are known for their lack of hand-holding. If a noob starts from ToB and loses, he had it coming for him and he will learn or start properly.

    On the other hand, we would have to suffer through cakewalks without the added challenge, just to cater to a very, very small amount of people that do it, wrong? Yes, starting the saga from the end, is wrong if it's your first time.

    You don't start a book series or tv show or whatever from the last part, you can but it's not recommended at all, for your own enjoyment.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    Madhax said:

    An option to toggle this is probably the best solution. However, barring that, I'd much rather have every encounter scaled to maximum difficulty. Missing out on content because I'm playing the game in the "wrong" order is just silly.

    Another example of this is in Watcher's Keep. If memory serves, the first floor is heavily nerfed if your party hasn't reached a certain level when you first enter it, and this causes, among other things, the enemy who drops Foebane to disappear. Seeing as how BG2 is extremely non-linear, I'm fine with there being certain insurmountable challenges in some areas. Just turn around and level up elsewhere.

    Regarding the Illasera scaling: Is she ever even remotely difficult to take down? She's one of the most anticlimactic and easy fights in the entire series, I see no reason to have her at anything but her maximum strength. And nobody should be starting ToB fresh anyway.

    Interesting about Watcher's Keep. I did it with 4 people after just doing solo-Irenicus dungeon and Averie's tent (so not that high of a level) and while the first level want terribly difficult, the statue that drops Foebane was still present.

    There are also other scaling enemies based on level, and I think it is appropriate and you shouldn't have to "turn around". For example, in Firkraag's dungeon there is an Iron Golem who is an Adamantine Golem if you are a higher level. One might argue that the Adamantine golem is the golem that is supposed to be there (in order for maximum difficulty and not missing content or xp). However, as a paladin, you are urged to complete this quest first and if a newer player goes to a dungeon and suddenly encounters an Adamantine golem they would be rather upset and would almost certainly die. So I think level-scaled encounters are fine.
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  • LoremasterLoremaster Member Posts: 212
    The difficulty setting should be expanded to include several options. This may be one thing to select (or not), but it should not be a standard feature of the game.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Archaos said:

    On the other hand, we would have to suffer through cakewalks without the added challenge,

    You currently have the option to make the fight more difficult, do you not? YOU know about scaling, right?
    Madhax said:

    Another example of this is in Watcher's Keep. If memory serves, the first floor is heavily nerfed if your party hasn't reached a certain level when you first enter it, and this causes, among other things, the enemy who drops Foebane to disappear. Seeing as how BG2 is extremely non-linear, I'm fine with there being certain insurmountable challenges in some areas. Just turn around and level up elsewhere.

    Totally agree for the non-linear parts of the story.

    The issue here is that this first fight is required, so it should be up to the player how much of a challenge he wants.
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    No. The game shouldn't pander to diehard fans who know everything about the game and think everything is too easy because they've played the game too much. They can mod the game.
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  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Bhaaldog said:

    Perhaps the "diehard fans" are offering their wisdom and knowledge in order to improve the game for everybody?

    Not in this diehard fan's opinion.

    It's pure laziness.

    What's worse is that it's laziness on the part of people who know enough to install a mod, at the expense of people who don't yet know modding is even an option.
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    Bhaaldog said:

    Cast sanctuary, walk past golem, take loot...

    That works well for the ones guarding treasure chests, but I am referring to the ones that are in one of the first hallways that your entire party HAS to walk through if you want to complete the Firkraag quest (Paladin's who want their stronghold could get screwed early on by said golems if they are too powerful).
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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    edited February 2013
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    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • toanwrathtoanwrath Member Posts: 621
    Bhaaldog said:

    toanwrath said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Cast sanctuary, walk past golem, take loot...

    That works well for the ones guarding treasure chests, but I am referring to the ones that are in one of the first hallways that your entire party HAS to walk through if you want to complete the Firkraag quest (Paladin's who want their stronghold could get screwed early on by said golems if they are too powerful).
    Cast Mass invisibility
    True, though not everyone has that spell depending on when they do this quest, or who they have in their party. I have in fact used this spell to avoid other creatures in Firkraag's dungeon (the vampire(s) ).
    Bhaaldog said:

    In addition @toanwrath your example is not a good one because inevitably these new adventurers you are referring to, who are doing the Paladin Stronghold quest, will also have to kill Firkraag. What are they going to do then? I imagine they may die a few times but eventually they will overcome the beast and be satisfied they overcame a challenging encounter like most people who play BG.

    Perhaps @Nifft would install a mod to make Firkraag easier?

    One of the reasons why BG is a classic and has stood the test of time is because of the challenge it poses. I sincerely hope this challenge is maintained and improved for future generations of players.

    Inevitably being the key word.
    To do the Paladin stronghold quest, you specifically have to NOT kill th dragon when you first meet him and then do all of the other stronghold stuff first, THEN kill him. By that point you have gotten experience from the Windspear Hills quest, and some loot and experience from the rest of the paladin stronghold. The dragon fight is delayed, though the dungeon is what the paladin is pushed towards by Gaelan Bayle.
    And all I mean by the golems is that they shouldn't automatically be upgraded to Adamantine golems just for a higher difficulty when players first getting there might not have weapons capable of hitting it. If the players decide to fight that dragon, at least it is possible to kill it (though extremely difficult). An option of difficulty/monster type/ # of monsters increased is what I am interested in, so that everyone can play at the difficulty they are comfortable with (if lower level characters want to take on stronger monsters be my guest, but it shouldn't be forced).
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Bhaaldog - As a long-time player, whatever I want to mod is certainly within my ability. The topic is what the DEFAULT should be. Don't get confused so easily.
    Bhaldog said:

    One of the reasons why BG is a classic and has stood the test of time is because of the challenge it poses. I sincerely hope this challenge is maintained and improved for future generations of players.

    Then why are you arguing for ALTERING the challenge?
    toanwrath said:

    Inevitably being the key word. (...) An option of difficulty/monster type/ # of monsters increased is what I am interested in, so that everyone can play at the difficulty they are comfortable with (if lower level characters want to take on stronger monsters be my guest, but it shouldn't be forced).

    Agreed.
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    I really don't see what the point of this would be. It would screw over solo/new players and for people looking challenge there is already SCS, etc.
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  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    @Bhaaldog -
    Bhaaldog said:

    Apparently you like "keywords" therefore read my quote and see the word "improved".

    "Improved challenge" =/= "Making everything harder".

    Again, don't take the knowledge you gathered from playing the game over and over again for granted. The game shouldn't default to what you consider challenging, you can use mods. The challenge you say was one of the reasons for BG's classic-hood (and I assume from this statement one of the reasons you became a longtime fan) was the one you faced when you were new to the game - the one that is the old default, with level and party-based scaling, not what you need to challenge you now after spending years playing the game and learning all it's ins and outs. If you "improve" the game by catering to modern you, all the new players will never have the experience you once had when you first picked up the game and that you still cherish.

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  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    edited February 2013
    sry but this would only affect solo runs or incomplete playthroughs(ppl here consider them an achievment of some sort)
    we need a new difficulty level that will alter the game in a meaningfull way(better AI,more enemies,traps,spells etc)
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Bhaaldog said:

    If you find fighting someone like Illasera the Quick or a Golem in any way even remotely challenging perhaps you are not as die hard as you think you are? A Bhaalspawn who fears challenge does not deserve to become the new Lord of Murder.

    Are you deliberately misunderstanding my argument? Is this some kind of attempt at taunting?

    Either way, by being this condescending, you've lost your chance at convincing anyone.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 3,675
    edited February 2013
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  • iam1iam1 Member Posts: 43
    Boo has fur, and not scales.

    Since boo is furry, and new players are furry, the scales should not be scaled.

    If you scale the scales then both boo and new players may shed their fur for scales, and we all like a furry boo.
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