Anyone made short bow swachbuckler ?
varlak
Member Posts: 15
Since they already lose the right to BS the short bow seems like a good weapon with the swqshbuckler bonus and ability to use every thief skills kit
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If all you use the thief for is ranged attacks and support utility, being a swashbuckler is probably better than being a vanilla thief, and @Son_of_Imoen's use of Imoen is pretty smart. But this is a very passive type of character, and I wouldn't recommend going this route for the main character.
There is another factor to consider. The Swashbuckler will receive 4 proficiency points by the end of BG:EE. This breaks down as 2 pips at level 1, 1 pip at level 4 and 1 pip at level 8. This is a problem if you wish to specialize in two weapon style and become proficient (at the least) with scimitars, or whichever weapon you so wish. It will require level 4 to become adequate with two weapon style, and that is without putting a precious proficiency point elsewhere. Until level 4 is attained I shall be sporting a scimitar and a buckler. It will be level 8 (and a lot of game time) before there is another point to spend, which would be best placed in either mastery of two weapon style or specializing in scimitars.
I had considered daggers in the place of scimitars for the flexibility of a melee and a missile variant, but putting the weight issue of throwing daggers to one side, there is the problem of a smaller damage range that daggers present - 1D4 - compared to scimitars - 1D8 - as well as the difference of damage type; daggers are piercing while scimitars are slashing. The latter is probably a tad more useful from start to finish. Melee efficiency would be sacrificed quite a lot for a moderate gain with missile weaponry. I actually re-rolled my character after realizing my error in placing a point in scimitars and daggers.
I can see how a Swashbuckler with proficiency in single-weapon style, proficiency in swords and proficiency in shortbows would be beneficial. No other Thief kit can go beyond proficiency in anything, anyway, so the gains that a Swashbuckler achieves in relation to hit, damage and AC would benefit those who care not for backstab. Then again, if you're in the back row providing archery support and little else, a fighter/thief multi may be the better choice considering their ability to go beyond weapon proficiency, if I am not mistaken.
Swashbucklers don't really get Weapon Specialisation at all. They get something called "Weapon Specialisation", but it doesn't mean the same thing as Weapon Specialisation for other classes: you don't get the APR bonus, which in most circumstances is actually the most important benefit of Specialisation. So what a Swashbuckler gets is merely "partial Specialisation" (i.e. just the THAC0 and damage bonus), even though it still costs a whole proficiency pip, so it's rather poor value-for-point. I think it'd be better if they changed the terminology and the kit description to make it clearer that you don't get real Specialisation.
At BGee levels, the AC bonus for a Swashbuckler maxes out at 3 (and is only 2 until near the end), which is not enough to make up for the armour restrictions of the Thief class. In BG2, the bonus eventually adds up enough that a Swashbuckler can have a decent AC, but in BGee a Swashbuckler is very vulnerable in melee. Since the whole point of the Swashbuckler kit is to be a thief who can melee instead of backstabbing, it's not much use at these lower levels.
Therefore, at BGee levels, a Swashbuckler is likely to end up standing at the back and using ranged weapons, just like a vanilla Thief would do (if not in position to backstab). So a Swashbuckler certainly needs a ranged weapon proficiency of some sort in order to contribute. In my current run, my Swashbuckler has a crossbow proficiency and uses the Light Crossbow of Speed, which is pretty effective, but of course I could do exactly the same with a vanilla Thief. (The obvious alternative would have been shortbow, but I've got someone else using the Eagle Bow, and there's only the one good light crossbow and the one good shortbow in BGee.)
Conclusion: a Swashbuckler kit is a long-term play, building a character whose distinctive purpose (i.e. being a melee-capable Thief) won't really become useful until BG2. It's also a very credible starting-class to gain some useful thieving-skills for a character who will then be dual-classed into their main profession afterwards (which is actually what I'm planning for my Swashbuckler in BG2). But if you're playing BGee without planning on taking the character right through BG2, then the Swashbuckler kit is pretty pointless, you just can't develop far enough for its benefits to come through, so you might as well be an ordinary Thief.
A Swashbuckler does not gain weapon specialization as a non-Rogue class would. Granted. They lose out on the extra 1/2 attack per round. They do gain the +1 to to hit and the +2 to damage. No other Rogue class can achieve this, with or without the extra 1/2 attack per round, other than a Fighter/Thief multi. The Swashbuckler also receives the ability to attain mastery in two weapon style, which again no other Rogue class save for the Blade (a Bard kit) can achieve, not even the Fighter/Thief multi, unless I am mistaken.
I think it is because the Swashbuckler gains both an extra proficiency option for weapons, and an extra two proficiency options for two weapon style, that the extra 1/2 attack per round is absent. It is a matter of balance, especially early on. It would also partially negate the abilities that Warrior classes bring to the party, a big part of which is extra attacks per round.
While dual-wielding (which is what the class is ultimately geared towards) a Swashbuckler achieves 2 attacks per round. Drink an oil of speed potion and that becomes 4 attacks per round. Each attack will, by level 4 if points have been distributed towards weapon specialization and two weapon proficiency, roll a +1 to hit with a +2 to damage. By Level 5 (when the kit bonus activates for the first time) each attack will roll a +2 to hit and a +3 to damage.
We should be aware of the -2 to hit with the main hand, and the -6 to hit with the off-hand in the above circumstance. I think that is a tad much. The above was a mere example of numbers.
I would rather opt for weapon proficiency and two weapon specialization at level 4 to achieve no penalty with the main hand, and a -4 to hit with the off-hand. This would present no base bonus to hit or to damage until level 5 (kit bonus) at which time it would become +1 to hit and +1 to damage. It would be level 8 before that becomes +2 to hit and +3 to damage when weapon specialization can be achieved.
Both of the above present only the base bonus, not counting what magical weapons and/or magical items may add to hit and/or damage. With the correct items it can be even better.
The AC bonus of a Swashbuckler is in play from creation. At level 1 it is +1 AC before seeing level 5 achieve a further +1 AC for a total of +2 AC. Again, with the right armor and items that +2 AC will go a long way, at least at the midway point of the game (which should fall around level 5). When things become a little tougher there is a further +1 AC for a total of +3 towards the closing stages and additional content, before the final showdown with the big bad.
The Swashbuckler attains all of that (which for me is a lot) while maintaining unchecked distribution points for their Thief abilities. They progress at the same rate as a standard Thief, and at a faster rate than the other kits attainable by Thieves. A Swashbuckler can stealth and scout, they can find and disarm traps, they can set traps, they can run to break line of sight and then stealth if they bite off more than they can chew, they can detect illusions, etc. It's a versatile and when played with a bit of care; a powerful kit even before reaching the sequel.
For example. Scout ahead. Uncover all enemies who will engage in the next scuffle. Place a trap just out of sight to either trigger at the beginning of the battle to thin the herd, or when things get a little too hot to handle to turn the tide back in your favor. Stay in close proximity to the tank of the group (as a Swashbuckler does not replace their role) and attack enemies who are targeting other members of the party. If it's a difficult battle knock back an oil of speed for extra attacks per round, and increased movement speed.
Prior to level 5 and with bog standard equipment and minimal hit points it can be challenging to make a real contribution in combat, especially without a clear ranged alternative. I know all about that as Imoen saved my skin plenty of times with her shortbow! I equip a buckler and attack only those targets who Khalid or Jaheira have already engaged.
There is a viable ranged alternative for the difficult early stages which is attained through a high dexterity such as 17 or 18 and the bracers of archery. Together this can offset the non-proficient THAC0 of -3. That dexterity score achieves +2 to ranged THAC0 to turn -3 into -1 before the bracers boost a further +2 to ranged THAC0 to achieve +1 to hit with missiles. Reaching level 3 (which is a swift journey for a Thief) achieves a base THAC0 of 19 for a further +1 bonus equaling +2 to hit with missile weapons. It is enough to navigate the humble beginnings of a Swashbuckler not looking to spread precious proficiency points too thin.
A Swashbuckler needs to bide their time, as with patience this kit brings great reward.
Swashbucklers are hit pretty hard in BG1 by the lack of weapon proficiency points available, and the slowly accumulating bonuses of the kit. Yeah, by level 8 you're a competent dual-wielder, but until then you're a melee thief with marginally better AC.
They were always balanced for BG2 where they start with enough bonuses and proficiencies to hit the ground running. In BG1 you need to either play high-risk melee thief early on or waste a proficiency point on shortbows that will only get used early on.
The Swashbuckler is hard going early doors. It is only at level 4 where I have began to see a good success rate with a magical wakizaski equipped alongside a buckler. THAC0 is 18. Damage is 3 - 10; piercing, with 1 APR. I have throwing darts in my second weapon slot as they are cheap, lightweight and can be used with a buckler equipped. THAC0 is 18. Damage is 1-3; missile, with 3 APR.
With AC -1 it is possible to hold my own until support can be had.
The problem I find most difficult to work around is the inability to wear a helmet, for their protection against critical hits. It's part and parcel of the Thief class, mind.
I'll have a dabble in two weapon style (which is proficient at this time) when I achieve level 5 and have a magical weapon for the main-hand as well as the off-hand. Until then I shall continue with a sword and board.