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Weapon proficiences

blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
in Archive (General Discussion)
In vanilla BG, proficiencies were rather generic. For example daggers and short swords were both "Small sword". Longswords and bastard swords were both "Large swords". All blunt weapons were grouped into one proficiency, and so on.

BG2 split proficiencies to the point that almost every weapon type in the game now has one. It also added weapon styles.

From the PnP standpoint, which version is correct? Or more correct?

Comments

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited August 2013
    Neither is %100 correct, in PnP a fighter spends a proficiency in a certain weapon, say, longsword. But skill in longsword gives a familiarity to other similiar, one handed, big swords too. So when using a, say, scimitar, he suffers half the regular non-proficiency penalty. (-1 instead of -2 in fighter's case) Whereas in BG1 you know how to use both longsword and scimitar if you have a pip in large swords, or in BG2's case, if you have a pip in longswords you know how to handle longswords but are clueless about scimitars.

    Ofcourse, in optional rules, a fighter can spend a number of proficiencies to become skilled at a broad group of weapons like in bg1. Also, specialisation in ranged weapons is totally different in PnP, so BG takes liberties in there too and simplifies things.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited August 2013
    BG1 uses a variant of the Broad-group proficiency rule. The only real difference from PnP is that the PnP version costs 3 pips per group, and never gives any benefit beyond proficiency. Getting specialization/expertise or above requires spending the proper amount of points in the individual weapon, seperate from the broad group. (So getting specialization in longswords would cost 2 pips in longswords, even if you already had broad group - large swords).


    BG2 is closer to the standard version but still not perfect.

    As above it lacks the familiarity bonus (Familiarity is based on weapons within a sub-group, which is more narrowly defined then a broad group, consisting of weapons that are very similar in form/function). Just like a broad group you could also buy proficiency in a sub-group for 2 pips this time...but depending on which weapon types are in the game, it might not be an efficient use of points. For instance in BG2. Scimitars and Longswords are part of the same sub-group, as are daggers/shortsword (technically ninja-to and wakasashi are supposed to be part of this group as well but they lumped them in with scimitar proficiency) and Katana/bastard sword). Though as you can see, being able to buy narrow groups is pointless because you're spending 2 pips either way and it's more efficient to just buy them separately.

    Bows and crossbows have completely different rules then other weapons regarding anything beyond mere proficiency. (They never gain bonus attacks not even due to warrior levels, and instead of the normal benefits for specialization/expertise, instead get, ** - reduced penalty for close range shots, specialization version grants a +1 bonus damage to close range shots (+2 for crossbows). And fighters/archer kit can go to *** which gives an extra 30ft to maximum range before penalties are applied (15ft for crossbows), and removes the bonus attackers get when attempting to strike the bow/xbow's wielder in melee.)

    And darts and throwing daggers are supposed to get an extra full attack every time they're supposed to gain an extra half-attack whether from specialization or warrior levels.

    Also specialization is also not implemented correctly in general.

    Only single class fighters can specialize at all. And only true class fighters can go beyond specialization. (and it's HIGHLY recommended by the rules, but not 100% required, that fighters not be able to place the 3rd pip and beyond until 10+)

    Paladin, rangers, Multi-fighters, and X>fighter duals are supposed to be limited to expertise. Which is a weaker form of specialization. It only grants +1 hit, +1 damage, unlike the +1 hit, +2 damage, +1/2 attack specialization does.

    (by core rules, they can't go beyond proficiency at all. The same book that added the expanded proficiency table also added expertise for the above to use, while specialization was still restricted to single class fighters and their kits, and mastery and beyond was only available to single class fighters (barring a very tiny number of fighter kits who could place up to 3 pips, but also had some steep penalties (like archer's being restricted to proficiency for non-bows and losing their bonus attack progression from warrior levels, but unlike all other classes (who normally can't get bonus attacks for bows without magic) could gain up to 2 extra attacks with just bows, with some strings attached (requires very light armor for all their class bonuses and 1 of the attacks requires spending a round preparing for rapid-fire, but lasts until they move))

    And Fighter>X duals aren't supposed to be able to go beyond proficiency after dualing.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    Cool, thanks.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,154
    In PNP all proficiency systems are optional. BGEE issues a system similar, but not identical to the most involved system in the core books. Throw in some (modified) ideas from the a couple supplements and you have quite the hybrid.
    But given that every PNP game I ever played in used its own hybrid of some sort, I'd say BGEE is perfectly in the spirit of things!
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