Monk Improvements
Gave
Member Posts: 66
Hi!
So, since Monks are now playable from level one in BGEE, I believe they could receive some balancing. They are particularly weak both compared to other class options, and compared to world encounters.
Some of the actual pro-s of Monks also seem to work rather arbitrarily, such as the 'missile AC' which seems to be largely ignored. Tested at the Bandit Camp (CH3) with AC2 + (Missile.Adj -9). Boosted by the Boots of Avoidance +5 M.adj.
Due to the low successful "hit rate" stunning blow also seems fairly useless. I was able to land it about 15% of the time so far.
A level 3-4 party could fairly easily get +1 weapons, and some +1 armor, not to mention the ankheg plates. I think the monk progression table should be also somewhat readjusted to match up better to content.
Things (I think ) that would help without being overpowered:
Kit:
* 18/00 STR on the creation screen : this would really help the earyl levels, 1-6
* Wisdom to AC : Some higher ranks in wisdom to boost ac by 3-4 points for monks. (still barely matching armored characters up till the mid levels)
* Revising AC vs missiles/piercing attacks (seems to be ignored mostly)
* Progression adjustment for +enchantments on fists. Lvl9 for +1 is way too late.
My suggestion: +1 @ lvl6 / +2 @ lvl11 / +3 @ 14 / +4 @ lvl20
In BG2 it is super easy to get +3/+4 and a tad bit difficult to get +5 gear, but possible before 14. I believe monks should get it with levels not too far beyond the rest of the party. 2-3 Levels is just ok. +5-6 levels is not really okay.
* Staff being equipable and speccable with THF. (Staff ** / THF ***)
* Maybe introducing an 'unarmed proficiency' (Monks, Shapshifters, other barehand fighters(?))
Unarmed Proficiency
Tier 1 * +1 Thaco +1 damage when fighting with fists
Tier 2 ** +2 Thaco + increased critical threat +1
Tier 3 *** + 3 Thaco + Stuns on a natural 20. (5%)
Gear:
* Bracers of Defense properly applying
* Introducing lesser versions of crushing gauntlets eg: 2/2 Thaco+Damage, etc...
* Ioun Stones/Rings/Amulets etc with monks in mind.
PS: Could we please have the monk paperdoll model from SoA back? That guy looks far far better imho
(and sorry if any/many of this stuff has been discussed before - the site search didnt really narrow down the threads)
Thanks for reading and consideration.
So, since Monks are now playable from level one in BGEE, I believe they could receive some balancing. They are particularly weak both compared to other class options, and compared to world encounters.
Some of the actual pro-s of Monks also seem to work rather arbitrarily, such as the 'missile AC' which seems to be largely ignored. Tested at the Bandit Camp (CH3) with AC2 + (Missile.Adj -9). Boosted by the Boots of Avoidance +5 M.adj.
Due to the low successful "hit rate" stunning blow also seems fairly useless. I was able to land it about 15% of the time so far.
A level 3-4 party could fairly easily get +1 weapons, and some +1 armor, not to mention the ankheg plates. I think the monk progression table should be also somewhat readjusted to match up better to content.
Things (I think ) that would help without being overpowered:
Kit:
* 18/00 STR on the creation screen : this would really help the earyl levels, 1-6
* Wisdom to AC : Some higher ranks in wisdom to boost ac by 3-4 points for monks. (still barely matching armored characters up till the mid levels)
* Revising AC vs missiles/piercing attacks (seems to be ignored mostly)
* Progression adjustment for +enchantments on fists. Lvl9 for +1 is way too late.
My suggestion: +1 @ lvl6 / +2 @ lvl11 / +3 @ 14 / +4 @ lvl20
In BG2 it is super easy to get +3/+4 and a tad bit difficult to get +5 gear, but possible before 14. I believe monks should get it with levels not too far beyond the rest of the party. 2-3 Levels is just ok. +5-6 levels is not really okay.
* Staff being equipable and speccable with THF. (Staff ** / THF ***)
* Maybe introducing an 'unarmed proficiency' (Monks, Shapshifters, other barehand fighters(?))
Unarmed Proficiency
Tier 1 * +1 Thaco +1 damage when fighting with fists
Tier 2 ** +2 Thaco + increased critical threat +1
Tier 3 *** + 3 Thaco + Stuns on a natural 20. (5%)
Gear:
* Bracers of Defense properly applying
* Introducing lesser versions of crushing gauntlets eg: 2/2 Thaco+Damage, etc...
* Ioun Stones/Rings/Amulets etc with monks in mind.
PS: Could we please have the monk paperdoll model from SoA back? That guy looks far far better imho
(and sorry if any/many of this stuff has been discussed before - the site search didnt really narrow down the threads)
Thanks for reading and consideration.
3
Comments
All of your suggestions would increase monk power at all levels. So they would become average at low levels but even more overpowered at high level.
However, if the missile AC really isn't working then it should be fixed. But you would need to be checking the NPC rolls to see if it is actually working or not. Remember that archers get 2 attacks/round so even needing a natural 20 to hit they will hit 10% of the rounds. Put a bunch of archers together and they will quickly whittle down even the best armored characters.
I have played many pure classes all the way thru BG2 and some multi/dual class characters, and from that experience Monks should get at least less behind.
For the most time the only use I get from my monk is to hide and scout the areas, but that is heavily gear dependent too, I also need to roll the best stats and still barely viable to tag along. Lacking both survivability and hitpower, at least that is compared to at level alternatives.
I dont mind tradeoffs, it would be fine to have at least some level of usefulness before levels 14-15+. And without heavily drinking, buffing, and lots of extra attention that is needed for them. They should be the least needy people from all the classes, interestingly they need every bit of help available.
Most of those suggested bonuses are "just nice" when you consider the easy to get gear you can just throw on a paladin/fighter..
When you start comparing a monk to some dual/multiclasses, they just get even less attractive. Balance is an interesting discussion, I think we can agree that monks will never be as good as a fully buffed mage throwing 3 instant fireballs, stopping time, and throwing a few more spells. It isnt really about topping the foodchain, just getting somewhat better so the gameplay with a monk PC is fun too.
I know monks with a few other classes were an afterthought when implemented, but this is the best time do something about it.
I am not really interested in loads of new content, but rather enhancement for the whole game. I guess this should be the focus of something called an Enhanced Edition...or it could be called an Extended Edition instead.
Now, about Gave's suggestions:
- giving him the ability to get exceptional strength will only help him at low levels - you'll be using belts/manuals/Lum soon enough anyway.
- giving him an AC bonus depending on his WIS is hardly broken either. It would just put him at the same level as a geared fighter (who can get good AC from equipment, and thus potentially much earlier than a Monk who relies on his level to achieve the same defense).
- I also fully agree on giving him magical fists a few levels earlier. Having to wait until level 12 to hit a mere Stone Golem is ridiculous.
- a staff monk would be fun, but afaik it can't be done: the way the monk's fists work, his off-hand is considered permanently used.
- an "unarmed" mastery is something I've been asking for since before the game was even announced.
And since the topic is about improving monks, I'll add my two cents as well:
- please give them new HLA. The ones from Oversight seem a little too powerful maybe (but I guess not that much compared to Summon Deva/Planetar or the insane Spike Trap) but they're at least going in the right direction, less fighter-ish, more monk-ish.
- that's only a pet peeve, but PLEASE make them able to wear the Amulet of Power again like in vBG2. That's the only way an unmodded solo monk can get NPP without purchasing every single NPP scroll in the whole game.
That said, I agree with you that gear is a good way to go, especially in BG1, because it won't carry over to BG2, where monks work fairly well.
Weapon enchantments:
Other than this is important to even land hits on certain powerful enemies, enchantments grant hit-rate and hit-power bonuses as well.
Loot distribution was always "weird" for BG2 in my book, most of the "good stuff" seemed always go to the classes least in need. Mages can get extremely useful and powerful gear, not that they need the extra OP factor, then Paladins and Fighters get their good share as well for a good range of weapons and armor.
It seems that the farther away you are from the "iconic" or "basic" classes, the harder you will find any support from items. Which leaves some odd classes and kits on the very short end.
(!) Most of the stuff listed here is very easy to get way before Monks can even think about getting their +2 Fists.
* Mages get to cast 'Enchanted Weapon'(+3) at lvl7 with long duration, also passable to other members.
* You can purchase +3 and +4 Staffs "right out" of the first dungeon. (okay you need to do like a few minor quests to get the money)
* Can easily get a pair of +3 Axes from shops.
* (+3) Spear, Shortbow, Longsword, two-handed sword..and more
..all available (with nifty other bonuses as well) from shops, and easy to access locations.
* de'Arnise Keep : A relatively easy dungeon that has some really decent +2/+3 loot: including the Flail of Ages +3
On an average playthru you can get all this and more before the party is level avg 10. As well as all/most of your party members get to hit monsters effectively, but they also hit better due to the (+)-es and the proficiencies.
Not having gear that boosts your damage, sure not a horrible oversight, but not being able to hit stuff with the signature abilities of the Monks is really annoying.
Gear I would suggest for BG2: (For monks and other mostly 'ignored' classes)
Hitpower Gauntlets for monks before Chapter 3
Bracers of AC (if you dont want a fix, just instance one for monks that simply adds odd AC like the Cloak of the Sewers)
More "of Protection 2/3" accessories (This can help some other classes too)
Maybe a necklace that protects against crits
Clicky to boost THAC0 2-3 times a day
A 'lesser' and physical version of the Innertial Barrier Belt for monks {
+ 10-20% resistance vs (slashing,crushing, piercing) damage
}
That being said, I agree that adding some more Monk-specific equipments is the best solution. Your ideas are spot-on, and would alleviate the Monk's issues at low level: that he is a close-combat character with horrible HP, AC and THAC0. I remember playing a mod that made them able to use basic robes (traveler, knave, etc). That's something Monks can do in every other D&D game that I know of, and can really help them, especially the elemental resistance ones.
But no, those suggestions are utterly ridiculous, aside from the ones that may or may not be a result of bugs.
Monks are fine in BG1, they just require much different tactics then a BG2 monk. And if you don't like it, don't play a monk.
My suggestion has nothing to do with tactics...
The fact monks need 3k gold worth of potions to get close to semi decent fighters suggest something is wrong. Sure, I can win a fight with wands, 'giant str' potions, etc... but they should not rely on rare/expensive stuff to suck that much less.
So get back maybe when you understand what game balance is all about.
If my suggestions are too offset, well I can only assume you need to really get up your game skills and understanding of how BG works and what powerups are available.
BTW: It is fairly possible to win the game with most classes with the lowest allowed stats. So this suggestion is not about the extremes (or powergaming) at all. Just fixing some side-defects of the current implementation.
PS: Do you guys invent "the dont like dont play" and alike phrases on your own or is it just a motoric reaction when you hear the crowd saying "bheee" ?:D
lets just give mages unlimited spell casting while we're at it, cause wands are too $%#^ing expensive (and since I don't cheese, have only a very limited number of charges). I might be god in the end-game, but $%#^ me at low levels cause I'm too stupid to learn to make due with what I have, and load up on DD spells with my tiny number of spells slots which is equivalent of a low-level monk attempting to melee, without a charge of Stunning blow active.
For the records, I haven't power-gamed in over 8 years. It makes the game too boring. I have extremely strict rest limits, I don't use any cheese or broken spells/items, and I do not modify my stats at creation, I roll once and hit accept. And just to prove a point I've tackled Acension (which I consider to be an official part of the game, complete with boss-hard modes) and most of difficulty mods with those same restrictions without issue, which is why I hate stuff like tactics and SCS so much...they run purely on cheese, which requires cheese in kind to fight without it becoming frustrating. Do-able...but frustrating.
Consumables exist to be used, and no you don't need them in every battle. Monks are extremely powerful in BG1, but they have to change tactics. You can't stand and fight like a BG2 Monk can, you have to use your increased speed judiciously, and for a good chunk of BG1, unless using stunning blow forget your unarmed attacks exist and use things like darts. Monks get fighter thac0 progression and can land that flurry of pricks easily. Early on, monks are harassers and support troops that transition over time into a damage dealing powerhouse.
In a lot of ways, a Monk is actually better at low levels then a Kensai, and Kensai can do just fine despite the lack of a speed bonus, their AC never improves, and they don't really get the meat of their class till around 6-7.
And as for BG2....the Scarlet Ninja-to is a +3 monk only scimitar with a nasty on-hit poison ability and adds a bonus attack, and is extremely cheap relative to the other gear because of it's class restriction. That thing can easily carry you until you get +3 fists (though +2 can hit about 90% of the enemies in the game). And since monks get HLA from the warrior pool, you can just toss on any +4 weapon and just use GWW to smash in the faces of the tiny handful of enemies requiring +4 and above.
But much like Monks, they need to use careful tactics and consumables (potions, scrolls, wands) in the early game to compensate for their areas weakness (lack of daily spells). In the end game, Monks are melee powerhouses that never stop, while mages can cause a bunch of damage and potentially end some otherwise tough fights instantly, but require a lot of cheese and system abuse to compete with what the non-spellcasters can pull of over time, otherwise they have to be frugal with their slots and only use the most efficient choice for each situation, lest they come up empty at the end of dungeon where the big guns are most needed.
The easiest and best solution is simply capping rest with hard limits on where one can rest, as well as time constraints to prevent frequent travel to rest and return, forcing people to learn to use their daily spells and other resources wisely. Otherwise just slap Diablo-clone over the title and call it done, since without any of the innate checks and balances that are supposed to be inherent in the system, it's utterly wrong to call this soulless hack-slash game a DnD-inspired roleplaying game. When it's just an action-rpg with a bit more story and a little less loot-whoring.
You can't really "fix" the Monk class, because there's nothing actually wrong with it, it's other things in need of nerfs that are actually wrong (it's one of the few classes that are properly implemented).
(that said, I'm still a fan of the Oriental Adventures Monk, trades overall power for faster bonus acquisition, and gets full thief utility, but at a crippling skill point penalty). It's pretty much the same as the BG Monk except it would be a complete character by 17 (as far as monk abilities are concerned), instead of waiting for 40, with the levels beyond just giving more thief skill, HLA, a little more HP, and tiny bit more thac0 (capped at 21)
Everything in that thread was, "I don't care how the class is meant to be played, I want to play it my way rules be damned, so theybetter mod it to instant kill all enemies on unarmed hit". Or that's how it sounded to me.
Even in 3rd edition, monks are useless when unarmed in melee till around 10, despite getting several bonuses sooner. You're still literally better just using a sword or something till your fist damage hits 1d10. Their combat performance is basically on par with what the BG monk currently does, except the 3rd monk can strike as if magical at 6 instead of 9, everything else is pretty much the same progression. Depending on how low or high magic and how montyhaul your campaign is, you're probably better with Kamas in 3rd, since you can enchantment them with all sorts of neat effects while benefiting from your monk attack progression.
In BG2, you can just toss on the SN until your fists hit +3, only shifting it off when you want to use your stunning blow attacks. In BG1 your fists can't even compare to the damage you can do with other weapons and should simply be ignored unless, again, you're going for stunning blow attacks.
That's just the way monks are.
For my current playthru I choose a monk for PC because I have barely played one before. It isnt my absolute dedication to bring Monks to powerplaying ultimatum, I can assure everyone. Just pointing out stuff from recent gameplay experience.
I am also sure this class is not the only one needing readjustments to get better inline with "similar 'purpose' classes".
A nearly capped, end-game monk (with gear) has about the defenses of a freshly rolled cleric equipped with basic armor, shield, and casting Protection from Evil. (granted they have the same dex)
Some ranger guy whose name shall not be mentioned also was kinda more powerful by lvl4 compared to my monk currently lvl8, not being able to crush a jelly of the mustard kind.
If they care to revise some classes, it would be great, if not, well...I guess we can play with the added challenge.
Sorry for the personal comments, sometimes reading 'falsy' claims does that wrong behavior to me. I prefer people adding into the discussion with actual facts, instead of just "sending off" people who try to contribute.
Currently a monk is best as distraction, or a pack mule, a wand shooter, and whatnot, -- whatever he does is done better by easily accessible alternatives.
If Devs do nothing but readjust the fist enchantment tables and fix AC, they have done justice to at least making a viable kit. Try to test it yourself.
Which is why I personally feel that before any re-balances are worked on, every single aspect that deviates from the base-line mechanics, without a very good reason (No jumping, swimming, flight, no burning through dungeon walls with disintegrate or similar spells to by-pass dungeon puzzles due to the engine not supporting it), should be blanket nerfed down to (or lifted up to, in case of bards, vanilla thieves, and druids) their PnP levels of power first, and THEN see about handling issues of difficulty or gross imbalance.
BG is positively broken as implemented, which makes class with more appropriate levels of power seem underpowered (when they're actually perfectly fine, just not broken, borderline cheating like say a berserker, or using a mage in general is).
BG2's Monty haul nature is also largely to blame. Most monsters in PnP can be hit by +2 for a reason. some golems, and certain combat spell-protections require higher weapon mods. Even Demogorgon only needs +2 (though he's also 10x more deadly then the BG version is).
Demi-liches are an odd case because they actually only require a magical weapon (the bonus doesn't really matter as long as it has one), but it has to be made of adamantite or have the vorpal property in order to damage them at all (or you can use the Shatter spell, which their 8th and lower spell immunity specifically excludes).
So we either stick to the 2ED AD&D rules that the game is based on and accept classes won't all be equal, or we throw out the 2ED AD&D rules and rewrite them. But if we start doing that then the game isn't going to be an AD&D game any more. My choice would be to stick to the AD&D rules as far as possible - there are other systems people can use if they want a completely balanced game.
I know that BG (and particular BG2) does have some parts which are imported from 3ED but that's more of a historic marketing decision I think because 3ED was just coming out when BG2 was released.