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More PnP-accurate Assassin

ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
edited September 2013 in Feature Requests
In PnP Assassins are pure poison specialists, rather then backstabbers.



PnP Assassin - Suggested implementation for BG

Can be proficient in any weapon (replacing the +1 hit/damage) (normal BS rules for weapons still apply) (this is an actual bonus they have, they can become proficient in literally ANY weapon, even exotic weapons not normally available in a setting (requires DM approval for weapons not commonly available in the setting)).

Gains 1 use of poison weapon per level per day. Lasts 1 round and affects all attacks made during the round (overall up time is the same as current poison weapon, just broken into smaller doses, allowing it to be used more strategically with less wasted potential).
(Same poison damage progression as BG2)

+1 to saves vs poison, and an additional +1 every 4 levels.
-1 save penalty to their poison weapon ability, and an additional -1 per 4 levels. (both related to their specialty use of the herbalism NCP)

At 16, gains a single charge of black lotus extract once per day. On their next attack, if successful, the Target must save vs poison at +6 or die. Targets that save or are immune to instant death instead take 25 damage over 6 seconds. Benefits from the Assassin's save penalty to poison attacks.

Neutral and Evil only
Only gains 40 skill points at creation, and only 20 skill points per level.


Fairly minor tweak overall.

The assassin's extra BS has been a huge waste for years (x5 was already able to consistently chunk casters, while by the time you got x6 or above it was no longer worth the effort or the enemies were immune) and has cost them dearly in the form of that crippling 15 skill per level penalty.

Not only would this tweak bring bring them almost perfectly in line with their PnP incarnation, it would drastically improve not only their damage efficiency (less wasted charges of Poison Weapon due to breaking the overall use time into smaller pieces and fewer enemies making the save vs the poison and better weapon choices for enemies immune to backstab/poison), it would also allow them to contribute in utility as a party thief more quickly, while still remaining an offensive force.

(pretty much the only change from the PnP version is giving them the black lotus thing...which is also potentially legit. In PnP they can use whatever the hell poison they want, and can use as many as they brought with them. Though limiting them to 1 use per level per day is a nice compromise in lieu of a crafting system, and poisons are only supposed to be good for 1 round after they're applied to a weapon, as they lose potency quickly in the open air.

Though Black lotus extract is as rare and expensive as it is deadly (easily the deadliest natural poison in DnD), so it's not something you're going to have in large supply).


Another idea was replacing poison weapon entirely with 3 different flavors of poison to choose from, all on the same daily use limit. One that dealt damage based on assassin level (6+1 per level, spread over 12 seconds. Save for just 6 damage over 6), one that dealt about half damage (3 damage +1 per 2 levels over 12 seconds) and slowed for 2 rounds (save to prevent slowing only take 3 damage over 6), and one that dealt no damage but had to save at +4 or be paralyzed for 1 round. Everything else being the same as the version above.
Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
FrozenDervishSouthpawCHAwDrugar

Comments

  • FrozenDervishFrozenDervish Member Posts: 295
    This is one of the few changes I agree with ZanathKariashi on as the Assassin as it currently sits is almost as lackluster as the wizard slayer.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Assassins aren't completely lackluster, but I agree with you guys that the x6,x7 back stab is unnecessary and the 15% per level over-crippling. Assassin's best ability is the poison anyway. This idea is great.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
  • GaveGave Member Posts: 66
    Seems fairly balanced idea, yet I disagree with 'everything on the basis of PnP loyalty'. PnP version doesnt always offer the best option for PnP, and fairly often outright bad to implement it straight into a computer game.

    Assassin has its merits, the x7 stabbing is really overkill, I would much rather see an increased backstab success rate. Some exclusive THAC0 bonus for stabbing with an Assassin.

    I could also see various poison effects that work as debuffs, stun, etc rather than simply applying DoTs. (Similarly to the Bounty Hunter special traps)
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    i dont like the idea of the alignment being restricted because theres no real reason for that to be the case

    also id say that the Assasin is far from lackluster in terms of power

    although i do think some of these changes would be pretty cool multiple poison abilities would be alot of fun to play with

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited September 2013
    Except when it fits perfectly with no real downsides.

    When all the benefits and balancing factors are purely mechanical, there is no reason not to do it.


    And is better imo then completely breaking the game cause the developers have no idea how to balance a kit/class/spell properly and just crammed a bunch of random abilities into a kit without considering the implications, and/or breaking the cardinal rule of kits, that they should never be grossly better or worse the vanilla class just a different flavor of the same thing, and should have a penalty of roughly equal severity for every benefit they gain.

    The berserker and Avenger being the most imbalanced kits currently (both getting MASSIVE benefits over the vanilla class (and in the Berserker's case MUCH more powerful then it should EVER be), with penalties that are a joke to even call penalties), with the Wizard slayer chiming in on the other end of the spectrum, who bares little resemblance to it's PnP incarnation, in all the worst ways.


    It's only the kits who have benefits or penalties of a less tangible or difficult to implement nature that modifications need be considered.



    @element

    It's restricted to neutral and evil because that's how it is in PnP. Unlike the PnP bounty hunter who has traps and poison use as well but generally specializes in non-lethal disabling poisons and traps, the Assassin goes for the kill and to make the target suffer in most cases, as death by poison is rarely quick or painless, unless it's a truly potent one.

    They are mostly evil due to the malice involved, but neutrals with a very strong conviction will do so as well. Good characters though generally shy away from such things, preferring instead to bring a target to face justice, rather then dealing it out themselves, unless they're left with no other choice.

    Evil would do it for money or even just for lulz without much thought.

    Neutral would do it for a cause they believe so strongly in that any means will be justified. And we're not talking last resort, just that they deem such an action the most efficient way of attaining something for the greater good of their goal, but lack that innate malice or amoral outlook that evil would have. It's something they may regret but somewhat, but feel it was worth it overall.

    Good generally wouldn't, and the closest they'd come to performing the action themselves would be hiring/ordering someone else to do it for them, and even then, only as an absolute last resort, because doing so would compromise their own beliefs. Good generally prefers to overthrow tyrants and let proper justice be done, rather then taking it into their own hands (the difference between say a Paladin who generally wouldn't kill someone unless forced to do so and Vhailor (Lawful Neutral Incarnate), who kills first and...moves on down the list).




    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 133
    edited September 2013
    @ZanathKariashi
    Although i agree with you that most kits did get rushed with no balance or resemblance to their PnP counterparts, i very much doubt overhaul will fix these adjustments whatsoever. As it is now some kits like the Assassin or the Wizardslayer to just name the worst remain completely lackluster, which is sad since they could have been somewhat interesting nevermind them beeing somewhat weak. I don't agree that a kit necessarily needs to be balanced compared to its original class, it does however need to offer some interesting and hopefully unique gamemechanics not available to the core class. Both classes does in away, but not enough to be viable to the player.

    Hopefully someone will fix these obvious flaws.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited May 2015
    There's a bunch of issues at work, and it's not just related to kits.

    Druids and Bards are just plain getting screwed in their current implementations and bring absolutely NO incentive to play the class.

    Fighter kits are going more then specialization, removing the 1 unique thing the single-class, kitless fighter is supposed to have exclusive. Paladin, rangers, multi-fighters, X>fighter duals getting specialization at all. Fighter>X duals able to go beyond proficiency after dualing. None of that should be happening.

    The Berserker having WAAAAY more benefits and removing almost all of the penalties of it's rage (the barbarian's rage would actually be correct if they just toned down the immunity/resistance list to what it's supposed to be). The Kensai's hit/damage/speed bonus applying to all weapons instead of a single type of melee weapon, and the wizard slayer not being well thought out at all.

    The swashbuckler being too powerful at the end-game, while taking until BG2 for it's bonuses to stack to a noticable level. (instead of the more immediately useful benefits the PnP swashbuckler (thief) has).

    Only complaint about the bounty hunter is their arbitrary telling you what traps you can and can't set. They could've just made the special trap a nested spell that allowed you to pick which special trap you wanted to use, with new options opening up as they leveled.

    The Assassin for the same reasons as this topic.

    Not giving Vanilla thieves their lvl 10 ability to cast spells from scrolls (albeit with only a 50% chance of success with a few mods depending on spell level/int score).


    ugh...too many things to list and at no time has there ever been a good reason for these choices, most of them have nothing to do with differences between PnP and BG, and are perfectly mechanically viable without the current Bullcrap going on.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
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