Paladin Tweaks
ZanathKariashi
Member Posts: 2,869
General Paladin tweaks - (Blackguards are not technically paladin and thus are not covered here) -
All paladin are currently missing their disease immunity.
All paladin should NOT gain the extra attack from specialization (**), just +1 hit, +2 damage (as close to Expertise as BG currently allows).
Paladin/ranger NPCs will not join a party unless it's rep is at least 10, and will leave immediately if it ever drops below 10.
Certain extremely evil acts will result in paladin/ranger npcs immediately leaving the party and turning permanently hostile to the party, or paladin/ranger PCs to instantly fall.
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Inquisitor - moderate tweaks/changes
Benefits:
Dispel magic - cast at normal class level, but at 100% base success instead of 50% as normal dispel magic. Starting at lvl 3 with 1 cast with an additional use every 3 levels.
(current implementation is MUCH stronger then it should be, having both a 100% chance AND double class level)
Turn Undead function replaced with Detect Illusion effect instead of normal turning effect. 80% Detect Illusion skill +1% per level. Maximum of 100%).
Penalties: Same as current except -
CAN use the turn undead action, but functions as Detect Illusion instead of normal effect.
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Undead Hunter- Major changes
Immunity to hold/Paralysis
Can cast remove paralysis x3 per day at lvl 1. Gains an additional use every 4 levels.
Beginning at lvl 4 the Undead Hunter can cast dispel magic (as per the normal spell) once per day equal to their class level. Gains additional uses every 4 levels.
Turns undead equal to his class level, instead of 2 less.
Every 6 levels, the UD hunter's effective level for turning attempts increases by 2
Penalties -
Cannot cast cure disease
Cannot cast spells
Cannot use lay on hands.
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Cavalier - Replaces current Cavalier, major changes
The Paragon amongst paragons, the Cavalier is the epitome of what every paladin strives to be. Brave beyond mere bravery, and skilled in a wide variety of weaponry, the Cavalier is Righteous justice personified. However, it is not without it's downsides. They view ranged combat as cowardly and must always attack from the front lines as well to act as an inspiration of those that fight with them. They also possess an obsessive streak that forces them to use only the best equipment at their disposal lest they risk faltering in their duty. And lastly, while greatly respected by the masses for their greater devotion to their duty and faith, the pressure to live up to that expectation can often break even the most stalwart of spirit over time, making them much more likely to fall from grace then other paladin should they stumble even once.
Benefits - Same as normal paladin except,
Immunity to fear, allies within 10ft are also immune to fear.
Immunity to Charm
+4 save bonus vs enchantment spells and effects.
lvl 1: +1 hit with Spears and Halberd. Additional +1 hit per 6 levels. (+2 at 7, etc).
lvl 3: +1 hit with Longswords/Bastard Swords. Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 9, etc)
lvl 5: +1 hit with maces/hammers/flails. Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 11, etc).
Reputation starts at 16 instead of 12 when beginning a new game or importing, resulting in better reaction adjustments and prices.
Penalties - Same as normal paladin except,
Cannot use any ranged or thrown weapons
Cannot wear armor less then splint-mail.
Permanently falls if their reputation ever drops below 16. Cavalier are held to much stricter guidelines then a normal paladin, but are also much more respected because of it.
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All paladin are currently missing their disease immunity.
All paladin should NOT gain the extra attack from specialization (**), just +1 hit, +2 damage (as close to Expertise as BG currently allows).
Paladin/ranger NPCs will not join a party unless it's rep is at least 10, and will leave immediately if it ever drops below 10.
Certain extremely evil acts will result in paladin/ranger npcs immediately leaving the party and turning permanently hostile to the party, or paladin/ranger PCs to instantly fall.
--------------------------
Inquisitor - moderate tweaks/changes
Benefits:
Dispel magic - cast at normal class level, but at 100% base success instead of 50% as normal dispel magic. Starting at lvl 3 with 1 cast with an additional use every 3 levels.
(current implementation is MUCH stronger then it should be, having both a 100% chance AND double class level)
Turn Undead function replaced with Detect Illusion effect instead of normal turning effect. 80% Detect Illusion skill +1% per level. Maximum of 100%).
Penalties: Same as current except -
CAN use the turn undead action, but functions as Detect Illusion instead of normal effect.
--------------------------
Undead Hunter- Major changes
Immunity to hold/Paralysis
Can cast remove paralysis x3 per day at lvl 1. Gains an additional use every 4 levels.
Beginning at lvl 4 the Undead Hunter can cast dispel magic (as per the normal spell) once per day equal to their class level. Gains additional uses every 4 levels.
Turns undead equal to his class level, instead of 2 less.
Every 6 levels, the UD hunter's effective level for turning attempts increases by 2
Penalties -
Cannot cast cure disease
Cannot cast spells
Cannot use lay on hands.
-------------------------
Cavalier - Replaces current Cavalier, major changes
The Paragon amongst paragons, the Cavalier is the epitome of what every paladin strives to be. Brave beyond mere bravery, and skilled in a wide variety of weaponry, the Cavalier is Righteous justice personified. However, it is not without it's downsides. They view ranged combat as cowardly and must always attack from the front lines as well to act as an inspiration of those that fight with them. They also possess an obsessive streak that forces them to use only the best equipment at their disposal lest they risk faltering in their duty. And lastly, while greatly respected by the masses for their greater devotion to their duty and faith, the pressure to live up to that expectation can often break even the most stalwart of spirit over time, making them much more likely to fall from grace then other paladin should they stumble even once.
Benefits - Same as normal paladin except,
Immunity to fear, allies within 10ft are also immune to fear.
Immunity to Charm
+4 save bonus vs enchantment spells and effects.
lvl 1: +1 hit with Spears and Halberd. Additional +1 hit per 6 levels. (+2 at 7, etc).
lvl 3: +1 hit with Longswords/Bastard Swords. Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 9, etc)
lvl 5: +1 hit with maces/hammers/flails. Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 11, etc).
Reputation starts at 16 instead of 12 when beginning a new game or importing, resulting in better reaction adjustments and prices.
Penalties - Same as normal paladin except,
Cannot use any ranged or thrown weapons
Cannot wear armor less then splint-mail.
Permanently falls if their reputation ever drops below 16. Cavalier are held to much stricter guidelines then a normal paladin, but are also much more respected because of it.
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Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
3
Comments
People grossly overestimate the strength of these nerfs (most of these I've already added to my own game to test the concept before suggesting it..but some features are simply beyond my knowledge to mod in), because they simply don't realize how unnecessary every thing actually is that is implemented. Instead of fixing the problems (overpowered crap) they design difficulty mods that assume the OP crap is the norm, when it's not..it's the problem itself.
These nerfs would simply bring the kits down to generic paladin level, which is already perfectly fine for beating the game with effortless, even with difficulty mods. Each doing something a bit better then the base paladin, but lacking it's versatility.
The UD and IQ give up most of their extra powers for some immunities or abilities that make them better vs certain situations, but give up quite a bit of stuff for it due to their bonuses being pretty universal. While most of the Wyrm Slayer's abilities are only effective vs very very rare and powerful creatures making them sacrifice elements for few tangible bonuses...but without being grossly inferior to the baseline class.
Even I admit that not everything can be made 100% pnp accurate, but I do feel that every thing that can be, should. And if it can't then it should be tweaked to keep the over all same level of power as the original design to work within the system.
I can't fix the fact that people can roll till they have god stats, but I can at least ensure that the classes themselves have their proper levels of power, or if something wouldn't work correctly in BG's system, it has an appropriate substitute, rather then jsut throwing in a bunch of random bonuses they didn't bother to consider the implications of.
My main goal is to let the game be both fun and challenging to noob and veteren alike, and to ensure, that just like in PnP, if you like the idea behind say, the vanilla Bard, you can play it without feeling like you're cheating yourself by knowing you could've picked a kit that does everything you do, but better.
The paladin is in the same boat. The Cavalier and UD hunter are flat out better losing inconsequential things for huge bonuses, and while the Inquisitor would normally be correct, because they've RIDICULOUSLY over-powered his dispel ability, the versatility of the generic paladin is completely overshadowed by the added utility of being able to dispel at roughly 10 levels higher then you actually are at lvl 1.
The only other option would be to cap them (Rangers, Paladin, Multi-fighters, X>Fighter duals) at proficiency but give them a generic +1/2 attack at creation (not very ideal either).
My preferred option would actually be to just remove it entirely and limit specialization to single-class fighters and fighter kits only, as per Core rules. But since they're using the expanded Proficiency chart it does seem unfair to deny the classes some form of Expertise, even if it doesn't work exactly the same as it should.
That's actually one of the biggest points of contention for having the fighter kits capped to Specialization (**), as per the rules (Only true fighters can achieve Mastery and beyond). There would be no difference then between them and the classes/combos who should only be receiving Expertise.
The Wyrm Slayer seems rather comparable to a Ranger with the Dragons as racial enemy...
The limitation to Sword & Shield style only neatly fixes one of the penalties. But the other I'm having trouble with.....all the choices are powerful, but there's not much else to take without over-nerfing the kit.
Anyway...
You supposed to get to pick the variety of dragon when making the Wyrm Slayer. They a get a BIG bonus vs that type of dragon, and a much lesser bonus vs other dragons. They also get a huge bonus when defeating their chosen foe (several choices, but the easiest option is an instant level up....though...see below).
I've decided to change them to a Red Wyrm Slayer, since Firkraag is part of the Paladin stronghold quest-line, so it's a natural fit for the type, in lieu of an easy mechanic for picking type in-game.
Thoughts?
One of the other options for slaying their chosen foe is upgrading one of their weapons with Holy Sword status.
If for instance a Wyrm Slayer had the Dragonslayer in their inventory/equipped when Firkraag was slain, instead of instantly leveling up, it replaced Dragonslayer with a Holy-Sword version. (Exactly the same except it can hit as if +5 (for hit-requirements only), dispels on hit, and sets MR to 50%. Only useable by Red Wyrm Slayer).
Firkraag already drops a Holy Sword...so even non-Wyrm Slayers will get one at the same time, so it's not even really a bonus per say...just a little fluff element.
If you are trying to make it closer to P&P
Wyrmslayer:
-Gains +1 damage against the target dragon per level.
-Choice between: Holy sword upgrade, Spells paladins wouldn't normally get access to via an extra cleric spell sphere, No gold or treasure received from defeating said dragon. Of these options that would be relatively easy to implement the Instant level isn't in the handbook.
That said the negatives don't exclude dual wielding (Only must have a shield of at least medium size on his person not that he has to use it at all times), Lay on Hands, nor can he remove fear as a base ability.
Having said that it's a good concept for a kit in BG, but to replace cavalier with it is silly especially with how often combat comes up in the game as compared to P&P as well as the lack of dragons in the game to make a roleplay class such as this workable especially when there are no dragons in the first game negating your entire kit selection.
As a last bit, not all kits are weaker than the base class in P&P and neither do they need to be especially since you are so adamant about being closer to P&P.
The main issue is trying to ensure that they don't receive a free ride, while maintaining the spirit of the kit.
I've been trying to add a couple tweaks to give the Wyrm Slayer a clear job beside just being a dragon slayer. The current idea is making them more defensive oriented while also having their bonus vs dragons, where as the Inquisitor is still king vs mages (just not to the overpowering degree they are now), and the Undead slayer is good for countering undead, while the generic paladin is just decent at everything rather then being really good at one thing, while each kit doing 1 thing a bit better then the others.
PnP-ish Cavalier -
Benefits - Same as normal paladin except,
Immunity to fear, allies within 10ft are also immune to fear.
+4 save bonus vs enchantment spells
lvl 1: +1 hit with spears and Halberd. Additional +1 hit per 6 levels. (+2 at 7, etc).
lvl 3: +1 hit with medium swords (bastard sword, longsword, scimitar, katana). Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 9, etc)
lvl 5: +1 hit with maces/hammers. Additional +1 hit every 6 levels (+2 at 11, etc).
Penalties - Same as normal paladin except,
Cannot use any ranged or thrown weapons
Cannot wear armor less then splint-mail.
Permanently loses all Cavalier bonuses/penalties and becomes a normal paladin if the party ever gains even a single point of negative rep. (replacing a massive list of penalties and code of conduct violations).
Enchanted splint mail is not at all common (if I'm not mistaken, you don't even have access to any until after you're likely to have obtained Fallorain's Plate), so it's pretty unlikely the player is going to be wearing splint after they've acquired some plate, let alone full plate. And my recollection is that the Cavalier is required to purchase the highest quality armor they can afford with their starting gold - you can't buy plate at the Candlekeep Inn (and couldn't afford it with less than 200 gold anyway), but splint is both available and likely to be within a starting Cavalier's budget.
The Wyrm Slayer on the other hand is absolutely required to wear plate or better (first sentence in the Equipment section) (though prefers Full plate over plate, if available, regardless of benefits).
Ditched the Wyrm Slayer for the moment, and created a new, revised Cavalier. Thoughts?
Also, shouldn't the tertiary weapon bonus include flails? Or would that incorrectly add morningstars due to the shared proficiency?