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Strongholds

SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
To not get of-topic in the other thread, i'll start this one to discuss strongholds.

1.) Bard

First place goes to the bard one, for being the longest and stretching over the longest amount of time. It's funny and you'll be able to take apart of the play yourself. Every quest is new and refreshing not to mention this is the only place in the game where things like Intellect have something to say about your rewards.

When you make your choice when it comes to actors, you can't just be nice and have to think about the play aswell. Sometimes you have to be an arse to improve the play. You can have some people in your teather group write the different dialogues, pay someone rich to do it or sit down and do it yourself. Depending on how good stats you have (Charisma, Intellect) you might even make it better than one of the famous people. You'll also have to spend money on things like chasing away ghosts from the teather to boost the morale of the troupe.

At the end you get experience and gold depending on how good the teather play was. You'll get different dialogues and cheers from the crowd depending on how much time and money you spent on it.

2.) Fighter

It's always nice to have a keep of your own. It's big and you even get your personal priest here. The quests are nice even if a bit expensive. You should be prepared to spend quite some money on making sure your lands are safe and bandit free.

The quests are nice and you'll get more famous to the people around you. The keep doesn't change that much sadly and they could have done more with it.

The fighter is on the second place because it's a long quest chain, it gets even better if you have Nalia in your party and you get a huge keep just for yourself. The last battle could have been improved but it was very satisfying to finally get to put a boot into his....

3.) Mage

The mage stronghold is lots of fun and you even get your own apprentices. The only problem is that it's quite hard to get to the point of having the stronghold, and once you're inside the sphere you can't get out before you have completed Valygars quest.

There aren't really that many quests, there are two quests and none of them are very good. But the atmosphere in the sphere and then training with your apprentices does save this stronghold in the end. When all is done and over you can return to your sphere for some free potions once in a while, and it's one of the only strongholds that are actually worth returning to.

4.) Paladin

Not going to write too much about it as i have spent two posts in another thread talking about it. It's getting a 4th place because of the RP flavor, the many different ways you can complete the quests and being the only quest in the entire game where you have to use a spell to get the best ending.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21880/main-character#latest

5.) Cleric

The whole cleric stronghold is rather nice. You get to talk with the people that come to confess and then watch how it ends for them when they return. There are three different strongholds (Talos, Helm, Lathander) and they do run the same basic setup, but they are still different.

The people got different problems, and you should answer their questions depending on your faith.

The last fight is rather nice and fit well into the theme, the whole stronghold actually does the cleric justice and has a nice flavor to it.

+ For the talos stronghold, the way you can complete some of those quests and then frame others. It's amazingly written and really well done.

6.) Druid

You get to own the druid grove and when you're high enough level challenge the leader. The quests are quite nice but a little on the short side. You get some very nice and unique rewards, and you end up fighting some interesting creatures.

It's not the biggest, longest or the best out there. But it's unique in it's own way and very pleasent to do.

7.) Ranger

Not going to mention too much here as i have done so before. I don't like it and in the original game it can be quite glitchy.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21880/main-character#latest

8.) Rogue

The most boring stronghold in the game. It's fun the first half an hour of your first playthrough, but after that it's just horrible. There is one quest... I wouldn't even call it a quest, more like a "Move here and fight 20 seconds" and after that it's over. You can change some stuff in your guild but it gets boring very quickly.

The worst stronghold in my opinion, there are some mods out there that try to save it.
Post edited by SionIV on

Comments

  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    Fun thread. I completely agree with Rogue placed last. The Paladin Stronghold has always been a favourite of mine, but I always felt it could've been much more to it, so all in all from an objective point of view I don't think it deserves 4th place.

    100!
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013

    Fun thread. I completely agree with Rogue placed last. The Paladin Stronghold has always been a favourite of mine, but I always felt it could've been much more to it, so all in all from an objective point of view I don't think it deserves 4th place.

    100!

    The problem with the placing is that you got..

    3 well done strongholds
    2 decent and fun strongholds
    3 bad strongholds

    And the reason i put paladin on the 4th place wasn't because it's amazing, it's because the others are just worse. It was a question about paladin and cleric, who took the 4th and 5th place. If there only had been the Talos cleric stronghold it would have taken 4th place, but as there are also the Lathander and Helm ones i'll have to look at it based on all three and then the paladin one is a little bit better.

    Well done strongholds.

    Bard
    Fighter
    Mage

    Mediocre strongholds.

    Paladin
    Cleric

    Bad strongholds.

    Druid
    Ranger
    Thief.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    Thanks for this post @SionIV, I'm actually going to run a Blade through BG:EE as soon as 1.2 comes out to have him ready for BG2:EE and the theatre content I've never seen now.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Corvino said:

    Thanks for this post @SionIV, I'm actually going to run a Blade through BG:EE as soon as 1.2 comes out to have him ready for BG2:EE and the theatre content I've never seen now.

    If i remember right the highest you'll need in a stat to get the best option is 18 for CHA and 17 for INT. It's possible to use the ring and potions aswell. Other than that it's wonderful and i'm sure you'll enjoy it. Loads of experience aswell. There is a period in the bard stronghold where you won't get any quest for 3-5 weeks time, this is a good time to go through the underdark and not miss out on anything. You might think that the stronghold has failed somehow, but there is a big break right before the last 2 quests.
  • @SionIV I know you're not a fan of the Ranger stronghold, but how is it worse than the Druid stronghold? All of the Druid stronghold quests boil down to "walk over here, kill something, done."

    Definitely agree on the Bard stronghold, though. I won't spoil anything for anyone who hasn't done it yet, but I will point out one thing I've discovered: The initial monetary investment you make in the playhouse has no bearing on the quality of the play; it only determines what your weekly income is after everything is done. If you aren't planning on stretching the game out to recoup your losses, you can safely make a minimal investment. If you do plan on hanging around to collect weekly income, it's still not worth it to make the largest (10,000 gold) investment.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Tha was actually my complaint against the Bard stronghold. By the time I'm done with Shadows of Amn, I'm only halfway down my stronghold quests. Considering that it's also not a quest everyone will do immediately after leaving Chateau Irenicus, it's easy to miss out on the content.

    It is pretty awesome though, that's very true. I just wish there was a different way of advancing the questline, other than "wait X days".
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    Kaigen said:

    @SionIV I know you're not a fan of the Ranger stronghold, but how is it worse than the Druid stronghold? All of the Druid stronghold quests boil down to "walk over here, kill something, done."

    Definitely agree on the Bard stronghold, though. I won't spoil anything for anyone who hasn't done it yet, but I will point out one thing I've discovered: The initial monetary investment you make in the playhouse has no bearing on the quality of the play; it only determines what your weekly income is after everything is done. If you aren't planning on stretching the game out to recoup your losses, you can safely make a minimal investment. If you do plan on hanging around to collect weekly income, it's still not worth it to make the largest (10,000 gold) investment.

    1.) Getting the druid quests is simple, just sleep in the grove.

    2.) Getting the ranger quests in the original can be very annoying, and the spirit doesn't always appear.

    3.) The druid quest to fight the troll is a simple one, and you get a decent reward. The druid quest to save the boy is also simple, you get a really nice reward out of it and the monster you ight is special.

    The first ranger quest is find item and then return it, the item happens to be right next to the guy wanting you to find it. The second ranger quest is killing a few low level orcs and ogrons, and the third one is just a horrible pun and the witch in the end is very low level and the enemies that are before her are much harder.

    When it comes to it, i much rather have some nice flavor to the druid quests that are simple, than end up with one very badly made quest (The lord), one mediocre yet boring quest (The orcs) and one quest that shouldn't even be in the game and is just a pun of a movie.

    4.) Simple is sometimes better, and a glitch free druid quest where it's easy to get the quests and nothing complicated about doing them is to me much more pleasent than the glitch fest that is the ranger one.

    5.) The whole fighting the druids in the arena is also very fun, both Faldorn and the druid grove leader later on.

    6.) The druid grove is really cozy, and outside the atmosphere is amazing. Umar hills is rather bland and nothing changes about the cabine, it's still empty dark and unpleasent.

    7.) If the player is new and he didn't speak to the boys about the weapons before getting his stronghold, he will fail and end up losing the stronghold if he does help them. I understand giving them alcohol is bad but why is giving them weapon to protect themself bad enough to make you lose your stronghold?

    There is also a bug where if you gave them the swords before taking the stronghold, you'll end up losing it anyway when you talk to the Major after the second quest.
    Drugar said:

    Tha was actually my complaint against the Bard stronghold. By the time I'm done with Shadows of Amn, I'm only halfway down my stronghold quests. Considering that it's also not a quest everyone will do immediately after leaving Chateau Irenicus, it's easy to miss out on the content.

    It is pretty awesome though, that's very true. I just wish there was a different way of advancing the questline, other than "wait X days".

    I use shadowkeeper for that quest, two seconds with shadowkeeper and when you load your quick save the quest will trigger and you don't have to wait.
  • On 7.) The boys obviously don't have any martial training, nor any appreciation for either how dangerous a sword is or how dangerous adventuring is. In that light, handing them a bunch of weapons and sending them on their way is pretty damn irresponsible. It's like handing a bunch of teenagers loaded guns so they can run off and go hunting with nary a safety class beforehand.

    It also seems like half your complaints with the Ranger stronghold revolve around bugs. If BG2EE fixes these will it move up in your estimation, or are these just window dressing?

    For me, the Druid stronghold is as thin as the rogue stronghold, and the fact that it gives you a couple of meager magic items and some more exp only makes it marginally better.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Kaigen said:

    On 7.) The boys obviously don't have any martial training, nor any appreciation for either how dangerous a sword is or how dangerous adventuring is. In that light, handing them a bunch of weapons and sending them on their way is pretty damn irresponsible. It's like handing a bunch of teenagers loaded guns so they can run off and go hunting with nary a safety class beforehand.

    It also seems like half your complaints with the Ranger stronghold revolve around bugs. If BG2EE fixes these will it move up in your estimation, or are these just window dressing?

    For me, the Druid stronghold is as thin as the rogue stronghold, and the fact that it gives you a couple of meager magic items and some more exp only makes it marginally better.

    If BG2:EE fixes the glitches with the ranger stronghold and hopefully did something with the Umar Witch quest then it would go up past the druid one. But the paladin and cleric strongholds are still much more entertaining and got more to do.

    The rogue stronghold doesn't have a single quest, while the druid got 2 pleasent ones.
  • DinoDino Member Posts: 291
    I wonder what stronghold the Antipaladin gets...
  • SionIV said:

    The rogue stronghold doesn't have a single quest, while the druid got 2 pleasent ones.

    The rogue stronghold has two quests: the assassination attempt, and finding the pickpocket who's been skimming. And my point is that "move here and fight for 20 seconds" accurately describes the Druid quests as well.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    They probably end up with the monk on the Fighter stronghold. I really can't see them making a completely new stronghold just for the blackguard.
    Kaigen said:

    SionIV said:

    The rogue stronghold doesn't have a single quest, while the druid got 2 pleasent ones.

    The rogue stronghold has two quests: the assassination attempt, and finding the pickpocket who's been skimming. And my point is that "move here and fight for 20 seconds" accurately describes the Druid quests as well.

    The first quest with the assassin can barely even be called a quest which is the reason i said they have half a quest. You go to Waukeens and fight an easy and boring fight, then it's over.

    And the one with the rogues skimming can't be called a quest. It's just a small part of the whole organizing your little band of thieves. You talk to the leader of the thieves, tell her what you want done and then the next time you get money it's over.

    ½ quest + 1/3 quest = 1 if you round up. So the thief stronghold got one very weak quest.
  • Question: What if you dual class? Do you get both strongholds, the stronghold of your first class or the stronghold of your second/main class?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    Question: What if you dual class? Do you get both strongholds, the stronghold of your first class or the stronghold of your second/main class?

    Multi class -> You can pick the one you want.

    Dual class -> You get the one that belongs to the class you have active at that moment. So if you're a F/M and you get to De'arnise after you dual classed, you won't be able to get it. But it is possible to do that stronghold first, and then dual class and be able to do the mage stronghold after. So dual classing actually lets you take two strongholds.

    But as Kaigen mentioned in the the other thread, this will most likely be fixed with BG2:EE.

  • I realize we're quibbling over which of the bad strongholds is least bad (i.e. neither of us are arguing that the Druid and Ranger strongholds are well executed), but it just seems odd to me that you consider the Druid stronghold the least offensive when all of its quests are cut from the same cloth as the first Thief stronghold quest: Go somewhere you've already been, do a quick fight, done.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    The thing with the druid stronghold is that it's special and unique in it's own way. First of all i love the whole area with the nature and even the troll mound, not to mention the inside arena and throne. It's a breath of fresh air to get into the nature where most of the other places in SoA are towns and such.

    The quests are actually quite unique. They aren't that long or special, but they are different. The whole fight with the troll is interesting especially with the army of rats which can actually wipe out your party if you're not careful. The troll actually has dialogues which makes it even more interesting.

    The second quest with the boy is quite interesting with the whole dialogue thing, not to mention the enemy you fight here is unique and it can take the form of vampires, air elementals and many more shapes. I love the whole Chaos part about it's actually a fun fight.

    When you hit level 13 (Or was it 14?) you can challenge the druid leader to a duell. And this is much more interesting than the Faldorn fight in my opinion, and it's very fun.

    The quest rewards are very druid like, the club is actually quite nice and the tiger figurine is another summon that is decent. They might not be the best items out there but they capture the whole druid feel very well.

    I love that you walk in and sleep in the grove to get your next quest. It's no waiting around like with De'arnise and the forest spirit from the ranger one. You walk in there and sleep the first time to get the first quest, then as she mentions you'll have to wait for quite some time and then sleep again once for the second quest.

    I think what it comes down to is :

    1.) It's simple and nothing can really go wrong. You can't lose your stronghold, there are no known glitches or bugs.

    2.) It's unique in the way that the few fights you have there only happen there.

    3.) I love the whole area because it's beautiful and it's not just another zone in Amn.

    4.) The items you get are specially tailored to druids. You get no items in the thief stronghold, and the few items you get from the ranger stronghold can find better use on a thief.

    5.) It just captures the whole feeling of the druid perfectly. This is also the strong point of the paladins stronghold, you actually feel that it could be something you might do RP wise.



    I decline the thief stronghold because the whole returning every week is too much of an annoyance for me. I dislike the ranger stronghold and do it very rarely because atleast in the original can it can be a little bit glitchy and it takes forever for the forest spirit to show.

    The druid stronghold is simple, pleasent and doesn't take several weeks ingame to complete. I enjoy it and accept it with a smile on my lips everytime i play a druid.
  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    SionIV said:

    Question: What if you dual class? Do you get both strongholds, the stronghold of your first class or the stronghold of your second/main class?

    Multi class -> You can pick the one you want.

    Dual class -> You get the one that belongs to the class you have active at that moment. So if you're a F/M and you get to De'arnise after you dual classed, you won't be able to get it. But it is possible to do that stronghold first, and then dual class and be able to do the mage stronghold after. So dual classing actually lets you take two strongholds.

    But as Kaigen mentioned in the the other thread, this will most likely be fixed with BG2:EE.

    Fixed, how? You mean it will be made so that a dual classed character can pick one of two strongholds like the multi classed character?

    Personally I think it should be okay to have two strongholds if you have two classes, although it'd be a hassle to keep track of.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013

    SionIV said:

    Question: What if you dual class? Do you get both strongholds, the stronghold of your first class or the stronghold of your second/main class?

    Multi class -> You can pick the one you want.

    Dual class -> You get the one that belongs to the class you have active at that moment. So if you're a F/M and you get to De'arnise after you dual classed, you won't be able to get it. But it is possible to do that stronghold first, and then dual class and be able to do the mage stronghold after. So dual classing actually lets you take two strongholds.

    But as Kaigen mentioned in the the other thread, this will most likely be fixed with BG2:EE.

    Fixed, how? You mean it will be made so that a dual classed character can pick one of two strongholds like the multi classed character?

    Personally I think it should be okay to have two strongholds if you have two classes, although it'd be a hassle to keep track of.
    I have no idea how they will fix it, because it will bring even more problems to the table.

    1.) Will you dual class in BG1? Or does this force you to hold onto dual classing if you want a certain stronghold?

    2.) Does it force you into taking a stronghold early in the game? If you want to have the mage stronghold but your mage is dual classing to a thief, you have to take an under levled party to one of the hardest zones in the game before you can dual class.

    3.) If you're new to the game and you're a Fighter who is going to dual class to a Mage and you end up taking De'arnise as your stronghold without knowing, then once you get to the sphere there is nothing you can do as you already accepted De'arnise instead.

    4.) They let you pick whichever you want, like multi-class.

    I would be curious to see how they would fix it.
  • My guess is that it will work just how it does if you don't exploit the loophole: the first stronghold you get locks you out of the other one, and if both of your classes are active you can take your pick. The only question mark is whether you can take a stronghold for your inactive class while leveling up the second one.
  • BasillicumBasillicum Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 400
    Kaigen said:

    My guess is that it will work just how it does if you don't exploit the loophole: the first stronghold you get locks you out of the other one, and if both of your classes are active you can take your pick. The only question mark is whether you can take a stronghold for your inactive class while leveling up the second one.

    I don't think you should be able to pick a stronghold for your inactive class as long as that class is inactive. Dual classing is already a somewhat illogical process, but it should at least stay consistent. Allowing you to pick a stronghold based on your inactive class would be more or less the same as being able to read a scroll or use an item that only your inactive class can read/use.

    As I said earlier I believe a character should be able to pick two strongholds, especially if dual classing, which is essentially a change in profession.
  • It'd be nice if all characters could pick two strongholds. Aside from the Bard and Fighter strongholds, none of them are really so demanding that you couldn't juggle two at once, and the reasons for limiting the class on many of them are artificial to varying degrees. I just think that there are so many reasons already to play a multi or dual class character as opposed to a single class that I'd rather not add to the pile by giving them extra strongholds.
  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    A quick stronghold-ish question that doesn't seem to be worth it's own thread - I have asked my apprentices to make the Staff of Power, and returned to them a while later. As I enter the sphere they all die, as expected, but I cannot see the staff anywhere. How do I get it? Should it be lying by their charred corpses, or do I need to talk to the Cowled Wizards or something?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    Making the staff of Power will kill all 3 apprentices (You also need to have them all alive to have a chance to succeede) But it's random if they make the staff or not. It's purely based on luck.
  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    Thanks. I've just re-loaded my autosave and re-entered about a dozen times, so I guess the roll to see if I get the staff was made when I instructed the apprentices rather than when they die. Damnit.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I don't know if i'm allowed to link this here, but DSimpson has a very good BG2 guide when it comes to the strongholds. It's actually a very good guide all in all, but it's not without flaws.

    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/faqs/34147
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