[bug] Thieves skill related interface and engine bugs
Lunever
Member Posts: 307
Thieves skills:
IMPORTANT topic, the original thieves skills contain several bugs and inconveniences, some of them apply especially when applying the BG2 engine to BG1 maps like in Tutu or BG trilogy.
a) Stealth
Current behaviour:
Rangers have STEALTH that is internally applied to Move Silently AND Hide in Shadows, but thieves only have Move Silently, and an internal Hide in Shadows skill of 0. No hiding place for thieves.
Expected behaviour:
Thieves should, like Rangers, have the skill STEALTH (not only move silently).
b) Triggering an alarm, getting caught:
Current behaviour:
In BG1 you could wait until an NPC was walking away and then search his room for loot. However if you do this in the BG2 engine, even being totally improved invisible AND non-detectable AND sneaking AND no witnesses present, you will be harassed be the alarm/guards when the NPC returns, even if you've already left - even if you didn't take anything but only opened a container, left without getting caught and later return to that map. Also, the alarm conditions in various maps are programmed very differently, in some maps they work halfway acceptable, and in some maps the guards will be called if you just click on an open table, some maps don't even check at all for witnesses. Oh, and sleeping NPCs shouldn't raise an alarm either, but usually do.
Expected behaviour:
You should trigger an alarm only if you are actually taking an item out of a locked container and are visibly observed inflagranti by a conscious NPC.
c) Allowed actions while staying invisible:
Current behaviour:
Many things that would not lift invisiblity in paper&pen A/DnD do so in BG. Searchng for traps, opening doors, opening chests, entering a new map. They just shoudln't.
Expected behaviour:
Opening doors oder containers or searching for or disarming trap or entering a new map should not end invisibility. Sneaking and searching traps should be truned on/off independently with both being on just slowing down the character (I believe ToEE did this?).
d) Getting visible after trying to backstab:
Current behaviour:
Hidden/invisible NPC assassins only get visible after they've successfully hit. So if you're facing some stealthed muggers with your AC -15 Sir Knight you may get the 20th message, that "mugger attacks Sir Knight", but still can't defend yourself.
Expected behviour:
After a missed backstab attack any PC or NPC who does not have IMPROVED invisibility should get visible at some piint. He might still get his off-hand attack and/or remaining attacks for that round, but with the start of the following round he should be targetable.
e) Backstabbing position:
Current behaviour:
NPC assassins can backstab without standing behind someone, PCs have to position correctly (except in unpatched pre-ToSC-BG1). I'd recommend going more 3rd edition there and ditch this retriction along with the restriction of allowing backstabbing only with certain weapons.
Expected behaviour:
Like in unpatched BG1 as well as in 3rd Edition you should be able to backstab/sneak attack from any position as long as you are successfully hidden.
EDIT: ... suggestions 4) moved elsewhere: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/979/draining-kills-memorization-selection
IMPORTANT topic, the original thieves skills contain several bugs and inconveniences, some of them apply especially when applying the BG2 engine to BG1 maps like in Tutu or BG trilogy.
a) Stealth
Current behaviour:
Rangers have STEALTH that is internally applied to Move Silently AND Hide in Shadows, but thieves only have Move Silently, and an internal Hide in Shadows skill of 0. No hiding place for thieves.
Expected behaviour:
Thieves should, like Rangers, have the skill STEALTH (not only move silently).
b) Triggering an alarm, getting caught:
Current behaviour:
In BG1 you could wait until an NPC was walking away and then search his room for loot. However if you do this in the BG2 engine, even being totally improved invisible AND non-detectable AND sneaking AND no witnesses present, you will be harassed be the alarm/guards when the NPC returns, even if you've already left - even if you didn't take anything but only opened a container, left without getting caught and later return to that map. Also, the alarm conditions in various maps are programmed very differently, in some maps they work halfway acceptable, and in some maps the guards will be called if you just click on an open table, some maps don't even check at all for witnesses. Oh, and sleeping NPCs shouldn't raise an alarm either, but usually do.
Expected behaviour:
You should trigger an alarm only if you are actually taking an item out of a locked container and are visibly observed inflagranti by a conscious NPC.
c) Allowed actions while staying invisible:
Current behaviour:
Many things that would not lift invisiblity in paper&pen A/DnD do so in BG. Searchng for traps, opening doors, opening chests, entering a new map. They just shoudln't.
Expected behaviour:
Opening doors oder containers or searching for or disarming trap or entering a new map should not end invisibility. Sneaking and searching traps should be truned on/off independently with both being on just slowing down the character (I believe ToEE did this?).
d) Getting visible after trying to backstab:
Current behaviour:
Hidden/invisible NPC assassins only get visible after they've successfully hit. So if you're facing some stealthed muggers with your AC -15 Sir Knight you may get the 20th message, that "mugger attacks Sir Knight", but still can't defend yourself.
Expected behviour:
After a missed backstab attack any PC or NPC who does not have IMPROVED invisibility should get visible at some piint. He might still get his off-hand attack and/or remaining attacks for that round, but with the start of the following round he should be targetable.
e) Backstabbing position:
Current behaviour:
NPC assassins can backstab without standing behind someone, PCs have to position correctly (except in unpatched pre-ToSC-BG1). I'd recommend going more 3rd edition there and ditch this retriction along with the restriction of allowing backstabbing only with certain weapons.
Expected behaviour:
Like in unpatched BG1 as well as in 3rd Edition you should be able to backstab/sneak attack from any position as long as you are successfully hidden.
EDIT: ... suggestions 4) moved elsewhere: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/979/draining-kills-memorization-selection
Post edited by Balquo on
16
Comments
Please fix this and allow pickpocketing vs. all creature sizes.
b.) This trigger issue may just be a BG2 thing since BG1 works just fine generally. Likely that those aren't issues in BGEE, but don't ask how I know... The sleeping-NPC-catches-me-stealing fix was addressed here:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1174/bg1-bug-sleeping-creatures-catching-you-stealing
c.) To have Inviso (but not Stealth, I presume) strengthened so that opening containers and doors doesn't break it is a Feature Request to change core game rules... Not that I wouldn't relish it, but still... not a bug...
d.) That may be a bug, but not in the way you're describing. The bug aspect is in the combat info showing up in the message bar, not necessarily them maintaining stealth while attacking and missing. If they're stealthed, we shouldn't know what they're doing. That's worth a mention...
e.) To turn BG into NWN... is another Feature Request. And here I'd rather defer to good ol' BG's 2E rules... That vanilla BG allowed enemy NPCs to get illegal backstabs in, well, was a bug... but BGEE's use of the ToB engine will have resolved that fortunately...
b) The trigger issue is a BG2 thing, and occurs even worse in Tutu, so it is very likely, that EE will suffer from this too unless it is fixed.
c) Actually that is, what in P&P makes the difference between sneaking and being invisible. Inivisibility only gets canceled by attacking someone or casting an offensive spell.
d) In P&P, no matter whether you're sneaking or whether you're invisible (unless 4th lvlv spell improved i. is used), you get visible once you tried to attack someone, no matter whether you succeeded or failed. Especially for sneaking this makes sense - an assassin jumps unto you, but fails to shove his dagger into a slit of your helmet vizor - and you don't notice it? Hardly imaginable.
e) Actually, unpatched BG1 did let you backstab from any angle, just like 3e does, and I find this to be the better behaviour game-wise. Especially, since NPCs do it, and a good engine has mostly the same rules for PCs and NPCs alike. At least it needs to be adressed, since in ToB as well as in Tutu this problem is still there.
This is what I remember from BG2/BGtutu anyways. It's been a while since I've played so I could be wrong
Just imagine what pain new users go through when their thieves constantly become visible when they don't even do anything.