Using Black Blade of Disaster- Which Class?
HandofTyr
Member Posts: 106
For a good while now I've been thinking about making a character that uses BBoD heavily once it's cast-able. I'm curious for opinions on which class combos seem to have the most fun with it. I've put up some questions and my own thoughts on some of the mage/whatever combos, but if you don't feel like reading it I welcome simple accounts of playing around with the spell with varying classes.
Some questions on the mechanics:
- As I recall the spell grants grand mastery with the blade, though some of the descriptions on web sites don't mention that. How does this work for a non fighter mix? I assume it's the to hit and damage bonuses without the extra attack. I also assume that a multiclass f/m gets the full benefit of GM?
- How much damage does the blade do? I've always assumed it's 2d12+5 (7-29), but descriptions just say it strikes as +5 and does 2-24 damage.
- There is an old post on another forum that indicates casting BBoD while dual wielding creates 2 blades (or possibly that could cast it twice to do this). Doesn't sound right, but there are stranger glitches in the game. The same thread vaguely indicates that you may retain some special abilities your equipped weapon when the blade replaces it. They may just be referring to using an off hand weapon though; it's not very clear.
On to class musings:
Pure Wizard (sorcerer or specialist mage)
Most casts possible (6/5), fastest access (3 million experience). Worst HP.
Fighter Mix
No buff required frontline power, maximum attacks per round.
Multiclass- Best THAC0, slowest spell access (6 mil exp) and low number of casts per day (2). I essentially wouldn't have room for non-BBoD 9th level spells. Access to fighter HLAs, which is nice considering that if I want to use BBoD a lot I probably won't care about getting 10th level spells as much.
Dual class- Lower THAC0, but possibly better HP (haven't run the math, but full power fighter levels instead of halved). Depending on when I dual maybe lower APR. Even at 13th level switch faster access than multi (4.25 mil) and high cast number (4). Can get a fighter kit's abilities. Kensei is probably the best bet as kai shout is very nice with BBoD.
Thief Mix
Backstab! BBoD is one of the best backstab weapons in the game. Miniscule gains in hp, none for THAC0. No extra attacks directly, but able to use belm or whatever offhand.
Dual vs. multi is similar to fighter. In theory I could tap assassin high backstab levels, but it would mean tons of down time and loss of one or two 9th level casts for the x7.
Cleric Mix
Haven't really considered it much. Access to nice buffs and utility. Hmmm.
F/M/T
Only usable with exp cap remover. In theory best of fighter and thief in one package, but 9 mil exp until first cast.
That was long. Thanks for your thoughts.
Some questions on the mechanics:
- As I recall the spell grants grand mastery with the blade, though some of the descriptions on web sites don't mention that. How does this work for a non fighter mix? I assume it's the to hit and damage bonuses without the extra attack. I also assume that a multiclass f/m gets the full benefit of GM?
- How much damage does the blade do? I've always assumed it's 2d12+5 (7-29), but descriptions just say it strikes as +5 and does 2-24 damage.
- There is an old post on another forum that indicates casting BBoD while dual wielding creates 2 blades (or possibly that could cast it twice to do this). Doesn't sound right, but there are stranger glitches in the game. The same thread vaguely indicates that you may retain some special abilities your equipped weapon when the blade replaces it. They may just be referring to using an off hand weapon though; it's not very clear.
On to class musings:
Pure Wizard (sorcerer or specialist mage)
Most casts possible (6/5), fastest access (3 million experience). Worst HP.
Fighter Mix
No buff required frontline power, maximum attacks per round.
Multiclass- Best THAC0, slowest spell access (6 mil exp) and low number of casts per day (2). I essentially wouldn't have room for non-BBoD 9th level spells. Access to fighter HLAs, which is nice considering that if I want to use BBoD a lot I probably won't care about getting 10th level spells as much.
Dual class- Lower THAC0, but possibly better HP (haven't run the math, but full power fighter levels instead of halved). Depending on when I dual maybe lower APR. Even at 13th level switch faster access than multi (4.25 mil) and high cast number (4). Can get a fighter kit's abilities. Kensei is probably the best bet as kai shout is very nice with BBoD.
Thief Mix
Backstab! BBoD is one of the best backstab weapons in the game. Miniscule gains in hp, none for THAC0. No extra attacks directly, but able to use belm or whatever offhand.
Dual vs. multi is similar to fighter. In theory I could tap assassin high backstab levels, but it would mean tons of down time and loss of one or two 9th level casts for the x7.
Cleric Mix
Haven't really considered it much. Access to nice buffs and utility. Hmmm.
F/M/T
Only usable with exp cap remover. In theory best of fighter and thief in one package, but 9 mil exp until first cast.
That was long. Thanks for your thoughts.
1
Comments
The bigger weapon's damage spread is, the more benefit from Kai you get. And it doesn't get any bigger than 2-24.
So yea, pretty much your regular cheese - IH, BBOD, TS, Kai. Yawn.
If you fancy a different kind of cheese, a Kensai/Thief with Simulacrum helm and BBOD scroll can make his clone go to town with Kai and Assassinate once a day.
But those Kensai DC builds were so played out 10 years ago, nevermind in this day.
The other ability which grants max damage rolls is Cleric's Righteous Magic, but cleric builds won't have enough APR (M/C, T/C) or L9 casting (F/M/C) to make BBOD really OP. M/C is better off using Energy Blades with RM.
As an aside, I'd recommend taking a look at the kingdom/power/glory that is Shapechange: Mind Flayer if you're going a pure mage, Sorc, or mage/cleric route.
I have thought of running a Kensai/mage dual poverty run though. bbod would be a big part of ToB i think.
NOTHING backstabs for more damage than a cleric/thief.
An old timer, Frabjous, on another forum went through every possible combo.
End result was an Assassin/Cleric dualed at 24 or 25 ( forget right now ) put up crazy damage with BBoD backstabs, and downright ungodly damage with Big Metal Unit backstabs.
3 attacks per round, 2 of them will be from bbod. Improved Haste on a thief/mage with BBoD main hand and Belm in off hand should give 6 attacks per round(but if memory serves it only gives 5), 5(or 4) of them from BBoD. Throw in Tenser's at the end will give you a powerhouse.
In theory BBoD is awesome but you will find in practice something slightly different. The damage potential, because of the wide gap from top to bottom, averages no better than most end game weapons. It takes the Kensai's Kai ability, or cleric spell Righteous Magic, to make BBoD really great.
These are not calculations, I am too big and dumb for calculations, this is just experience. Maybe I am wrong, it happens a lot(ask my wife), but I doubt it. :-)
The PoL was 900,000 C/3,500,000 M, with 4 attacks per round. Using all of her cleric buffs she was just about a match for Shank.
The Kensai was 1,250,000 F/3,500,000 M with 8 attacks per round with dual-wielding (6 BBoD, 2 off-hand). After a long fight he just barely managed to take down Carbos.
Theoretically, it would be possible to reach 8 BBoD attacks per round with Belm or Kundane, though this may be a bug since you can't equip any weapons until the spell's duration is up.
Overall, the Kensai wins easily for pure damage output. The PoL/M does have two distinct advantages however: It won't take as long to dual-class them, and they get some Cleric spells on the side. It's up to you really which one of those choices sounds better to you.
1-F/M have access to fewer BBoD than a K/M dual at level 7 or 13
2-K/M dual has Kai. BBoD does 2-24 damage averaged out to 13. GWW 10x13=130 but Kai makes it do maximum so 8x24=192 plus Kensai bonus damage on top of that ( 8 attacks from Improved Haste )
3-K/M dual has access to higher level spells faster
Greater minds than mine have had this discussion for a long time. Through math and testing the K/M dual always wins out.
The question is, if I am understanding the thread, what character class would have best access to and the greatest ability to use BBoD. My take on it would have to be a dual class or straight up mage, because multiclass would give too few BBoD spells too late in the game to be effective.
2: Greater Whirlwind saves a spellslot from Improved Haste. Add Critical Strike to the mix and you have 10 critical hits in one round I think. That would be an average of 260?
3: True, but that's balanced out somewhat by the intensely boring 'downtime' after becoming a mage before getting your Kensai skills back.
It would help a lot if BBoD was lower level (7 or 8), which in truth it probably should be anyway.
The real thing is:
F/T with Carsomyr+6 (UAI HLA), then the Thief HLA Assassination, Greater Whirlwind Attack and Critical Strike, with that you can smite Abazigal even before he starts dialog.
Edit: Also, both Greater Whirlwind and Assassination only last a single round. As such, you can never have them both active at the same time(they are both "abilities" just like spells are and you can only ever use one per round). Ditto with Critical Strike. You could however use the Smite HLA as it has a duration of more than one round. Still wouldn't let you backstab, but a GWW that automatically critical hits is devastating enough. Unless your opponent is wearing a helmet...
I personally prefer to work within the confines of the exp cap and the idea is to just keep a scroll of it on your quickbar and have your simulacrum dopplegangers use duplicate copies of the spell.
The BBoD can backstab and should be use as such, it is a very powerful spell but it is on the same spell level that Time Stop or Improved Alacrity which makes it look like a bad spell. The energy drain can be very useful to kill some immune target.
I guess if you're not modding the game, you could exploit Simulacrum or Project Image to cast by scroll with a F/M/T and makes good use of the spell.
(version 1.2.2030 OS X, beamdog)
Advantages:
1. Max damage (Kai)
2. All crits (fighter HLA)
3. Improved haste from spellbook
4. BBoD from spellbook
5. Improved Alacrity from spellbook (to have Kai and Crit in the same round)
BBoD mechanics (I can be wrong):
When you cast the spell having your weapon slots occupied all the bonuses and procs from the weapons disappear. When the spell runs out you have to manually reequip those weapons to activate the bonuses.
If you cast the spell with any kind of weapon (a simple club works) then you have 1 extra attack with BBoD (this may be a bug).
Attacks/round:
1 standard attack
+1 fighter lvl>=13
+1 grandmaster
+1 offhand occupied when the spell was cast
so 4*2(improved haste) = 8 APR
Unbuffed damage:
24 BBoD with Kai active
+5 BBoD has a +5 dmg bonus on top of the 2d12 rolls
+5 grandmaster
+6 str 18/00
+7 kensai lvl21
so 47 BUT in all my tests (even with other classes that can cast BBoD) the hits are 4 points above.
In the case of the k->m 51 dmg (102 crit dmg)
Those 4 points may come from the fists damage? 1-2 1-2. I'm only guessing. Tested Phantom Blade and got the same +4 unexpected extra damage.
So without buffs like str potions, improved bard songs, etc ... the peak round damage is: 51*2*8 = 816 vs non crit-immune
If I could have 1-2 more kensai levels then Whirlwind - GWW will set our APR to 10. And the totals would be:
940 with WW. 1020 with GWW