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Tank build (Paladin) weapon specialization

So i'm planning to to play BG:EED and than continue with the same character on to BG2:EED.
I know what kind of class i want (Cavelier) and pretty sure on the abilities with the exception of what effect it has on getting 18 charisma over 17?

But the real problem I'm having is weapon specialization. At first I was thinking of bastardsword with shield but since bastardsword don't seem that great i'm looking further. I've seen suggestions of going for **axes rest in 2handedsword and 2handed weapons. This made me wonder if shields are still any good late game for a tank or just not needed?

In addition i'm having some questions about how items interact with eachother?
Do magical items that give bonus armour all stack with one another?
A fullplate armor can't get more out of the Dexterity armor bonus above 18 right?


And as a last question is their any program for character builder with leveling?

Comments

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    1.) Bastard swords are great in BG2 and the paladin got a spesific one (The purifier) which is great.

    2.) You'll be able to use a shield early game and then drop it later on, it's not worth putting points into sword and shield style, but you can still use a shield to improve your AC when you're badly geared or low level.

    3.) First of all items of protection (Ring/Cloak/Amulet of protection) doesn't stack with armors that give you +1 or are magical. But you can use a normal full plate and a ring of protection +2.

    Full plate : 1 AC
    Full plate +1 : 0 AC
    Full plate and ring of protection +1 : 0 AC /+1 saving throws.
    Full plate and ring of protection +2 : -1 AC / +2 saving throws.

    So you get the same armor class from having a full plate and a ring of protection +1 as if you had a full plate +1. But you do also get the +1 saving throws from the ring of protection, but you're sacrificing a ring slot and not just an armor.

    There are also some items that add bonus to armor class that you will be able to add ontop of your magical armor.

    Full plate +1 = 0 AC
    Cloak of Balduran = +1
    Ring of Earth control = +1
    Helm of Balduran = +1
    Ring of Gaxx = +2

    You'll be able to use all of these items together, and you'll end up with an AC of -5

    4.) One of the best combinations you can use as a Cavalier is to dual weld FoA +4/+5 with Purifier +4/+5 having FoA in main hand and Purifier in of Hand.

    FoA = Flail of Ages (De'arnise keep)
    Purifier = Bastard sword you can get on watchers keep level 3 (Easy to get it)
  • 18 Charisma over 17 gets you a slightly bigger discount in stores, and maybe a little better rewards from certain quests. It's not a big deal because you get tons of gold in this game, and there are also items which can increase your charisma.

    Shields outlive their usefulness because in late BG2 you eventually hit a point where your AC doesn't matter and the shields available don't have good enough secondary bonuses to make them worth while. That being said, during BG:EE and the early parts of BG2 a shield is definitely helpful; just don't invest any proficiency in sword and shield style.

    As far as weapon specialization goes, you have a few good options. Maces are a good choice because The Stupefier in BGEE is the best tank weapon in the game and can be gotten early, and having points in Maces is still handy in BG2EE for wielding the Mace of Disruption. For Cavaliers, Axes are another good option, because throwing axes get around the Cavalier's restriction on missile weapons and you get access to a variety of magical throwing axes over the course of the series. Eventually you'll want to get proficiency in Two-handed swords, because of the Paladin exclusive 2H Sword Carsomyr that you can get in BG2EE. Aside from that, Flails are a decent choice; there are good ones in BGEE, and in BG2EE there's the Defender of Easthaven flail which gives you significant physical damage resistance, which is very useful for tanking against enemies where your AC isn't effective (and the Flail of Ages is arguably the best weapon in the game).

    Magical items "of protection" don't stack with magic armor. There are a handful of magic items which get around this stacking issue. Armor doesn't limit dex bonus to AC in the rules set BG uses, but 18 is about the max Dex for AC for any character because of the way it scales at higher scores.

    I don't know of any programs which simulate leveling up a character in BG; it's not all that necessary because BG is based on a rules set that gives you next to no choices when you level up, so there's no opportunity to deviate from the normal course.
  • TalroshTalrosh Member Posts: 5
    Wow, this is AWESOME thanks for the information and so fast. And thanks for the excellent examples of AC Sion that really helps.

    I also heard that bludgeon is a bit better than slashing or piercing in the BG games because of the opponents.

    Does anyone know how many weapon profincies one can spend total at max lvl for BG1 and BG2 pre expansion? Or is their a chart? I don't think I saw a chart of this in the manual.

    Hmm would have thought that Crom Faeyr would be the best ofhand. But I don't think i will go dualwield with a paladin.


  • Talrosh said:

    I also heard that bludgeon is a bit better than slashing or piercing in the BG games because of the opponents.

    Does anyone know how many weapon profincies one can spend total at max lvl for BG1 and BG2 pre expansion? Or is their a chart? I don't think I saw a chart of this in the manual.

    Hmm would have thought that Crom Faeyr would be the best ofhand. But I don't think i will go dualwield with a paladin.

    Bludgeoning is slightly better than the other damage types because certain armor types (particularly plate and full plate) are easier to hit with that type of weapon. Granted, you don't fight very many enemies in plate (and hardly any in full plate), but those are going to be the ones with better AC, so it's something to keep in mind.

    A Paladin will get 4 starting pips and gain 2 more over the course of BG1. In BG2 pre-expansion you'd get 3 more. Here are some progression charts.

    Crom Faeyr is actually a great main hand, as it has a +5 electrical damage bonus that's missing from the description. However, as a Cavalier, you will eventually get Cleric spells, including Draw Upon Holy Might, which gives you a sizeable Strength bonus, meaning you can get most of the benefit of wielding Crom Faeyr without wielding it. Crom Faeyr is better on a character that doesn't already have a means of boosting up their strength to high levels.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited October 2013
    The reason you want the Purifier in your of hand instead of Crom Faeyr is as Kaigen said you'll get 25 STR from DUHM so you shouldn't use it on that character.

    The purifier +4 : 20% Magic resistance
    The purifier +5 : 30% Magic resistance

    And it also gives extra damage against chaotic evil opponents.

    Flail of Ages got amazing damage and also some other neat abilities.

    Flail of Ages +3 : Great elemental damage and slow effect on hit.
    Flail of Ages +4 : Improved damage and adds another element.
    Flail of Ages +5 : Massive bonus to damage, Free action and 5% magic resistance.

    So the flail of ages gives you the highest damage in the entire game, elemental damage that go through mage shields and buffs to interrupt them, and free action + 5% magic resistance in the end. Add in the Purifier who also got some really nice damage and a whooping 20/30% magic resistance and you're set as a tank. And when you get a good armor there is really no need for your paladin to wear a shield, then the MR from purifier, 1 more APR and damage is much better.

    Let's look at your tank buffs just by using these items.

    Free action : Can't be slowed, stunned (Original game), can't be hasted either but you can get around this.
    Magic resistance : 25-30% magic resistance which is huge.
    Slow effect : FoA's slow effect works on everything including golems, so you're effectively removing loads of their damage by slowing them. Also works on casters to make their spells take much longer to cast.
    Fantastic damage : FoA + Purifier dual wielding on your paladin should put you ontop of damage in your party, my cavalier used that setup and got more juice out of it than my Half-Orc Berserker.

    I also want to mention Carsomyr as that is a great weapon if you want to go two hander.

    I would also like to mention that the MR you get from purifier is the second highest in the game behind Carsomyr which is a two handed weapon. And when you get to BG2 magic resistance is much more important than AC or physical resistance. You could also dual wield the Defender of Easthaven for +1 AC and 20% physical resistance but when you're mid-high level you much rather want 20% more chance to dodge a spell that could instantly kill you than another 20% physical resistance ontop of your armor of faith spell (Level 1 divine).

    [Edited] :

    Want to mention that you can get FoA +3 (Upgraded to +4) And Purifier +4 pretty much anytime you want. FoA +3 you get from De'arnise which is an easy quest chain to do that you get from the start (Copper Coronet) and you can find the head to upgrade it to +4 from Watcher's keep level 2 which isn't that hard to get to. And then you find the purifier right at the start of Watcher's keep level 3 which is still very possible to get with a new party. So no waiting to ToB or Underdark to get the nice items.

    I got both of them right from the start with my No-reload team of Keldorn, Mazzy, Jaheira and CHARNAME which was cavalier, so it is possible. And once you get FoA +4 and the purifier, they will be able to carry your paladin through the rest of the game and you won't get any weapons that are better.
    nanoWandering_MinstrelRAM021
  • TalroshTalrosh Member Posts: 5
    edited October 2013
    sorry for the late reply. Thanks for the information. I came up with 2 builds

    Stats Paladin
    Class: Paladin Cavelier
    Race: Human
    Strenght: 18/51+
    Dexterity: 17
    Stamina: 18
    Intellect: 10
    Wisdow: 13
    Charisma: 17
    Total roll: 93
    (BG1, contains books that raises a specific stat by 1, there's one book for each stat, because of this it only really matter that you have 18 strenght not the number after that)

    Weapon Specialization
    http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    build 1 - quick build able to attack at range
    Axes: **
    Two-Handed Sword: **
    Two-Handed Weapon Style: **

    Weapons used:
    Throwing Axe +2
    Azuredge
    Axe of the Unyielding +3
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Build 2 - Two-Weapon Style
    Weapon mainhand: **
    Weapon ofhand: **
    Two-Weapon Style: ***

    Good mainhand weapons: Weapons with great damage output and bonus effects on hit.
    Good ofhand weapon: Weapons with great bonuses without the need of hitting although is prefered to have a high output damage.

    Sugested Two-Weapon Styles:
    - Flail/Morning Star with Bastard swords (Flail of Ages with Purifier)
    - Flail/Morning Star with Axes (Flail of Ages with Axe of unyielding and azuredge for ranged)


    Incase you don't have the cleric spell: Draw Upon Holy Might
    - Flail/Morning Star with Warhammer (Flail of Ages with Crom Faeyr and use something like Dwarven Trower for ranged attack, Crom Faeyr can also be main hand)
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Party:
    This is not taken into account, but you can build around their weapon specializations away from what your using. The canon party means using the following characters: Imoen, Minsc, Dynaheir, Jaheira, Khalid.
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19649/jaheira-khalid-minsc-proficiencies-choice

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Sources of information:
    General information for character build
    http://www.playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/19649/jaheira-khalid-minsc-proficiencies-choice
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/iphone/664711-baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition/faqs/65403
    http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/75251-baldurs-gate/faqs/63205

    Items:
    http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgate/weapons.php
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/8110/a-guide-to-new-magic-items-spoilers/p1
    http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/weapons.php
    http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/itemguide.php
    This thread and others on this forum :P

    Edit:
    -updated weapon specialization since paladins can't get more than ** in weapons except for Two-Weapon Style
    Post edited by Talrosh on
  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    edited October 2013
    @Talrosh
    You can't have more than 2* as a paladin in any weapon (although you can still put 3* in dual wielding style).

    If you want a tank build then using a shield in BG1 would be the way to go, but putting *s in sword and shield style is a bit wasteful as the benefits aren't big and the best shields give bonuses vs missiles anyway.

    In mid/late BG2 then the best tank would use the Defender of Easthaven for damage resistance (combined with the various other sources). Since it's not a good offensive weapon it makes sense to dual wield and use it in the off-hand. The only difference a more offensive 'build' would have would be to use Belm or Kundane in the off-hand to maximise your attacks. Any paladin may as well do both of these things anyway since you will have the points to spare meaning there isn't really a difference between these 'builds' at this point in the game.

    You don't gain the 1/2 attack from specialisation from weapons in the off-hand so you could hold off in investing fully in those weapons until you have the luxury of doing so.

    I personally like bastard swords for paladins but the best ones are in Watcher's Keep. Until that point I would plan your weapon choices around your party members. e.g. If you take Jaheira then choose short swords over scimitars so you get Kundane and she gets Belm, if you want Valygar then don't choose katanas.
  • wampawampa Member Posts: 68
    Two handed Swords and Two Handed Weapon Style is the "typical" choice for Paladins due to the sheer awesomeness of Carosmyr in BG2 and the best choice for a "tank build" imo. Additionally, there are LOTS of useful 2HS throughout both games so there is almost never a point where you feel yourself lacking a top-flight weapon.

    Axes, Flails, Maces, Long Swords, and Bastard Swords all have some solid options in BG2 if you want to dual-wield. In that case, I'd probably pick Axes/Flails since you can get some fairly good ones early in SoA and some truly incredible ones in ToB. Long swords are a bit front-loaded (lots of good ones in SoA, not as many in ToB), and Bastard Swords are a bit back loaded (awesome ones in ToB, mediocre ones in SoA).
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    I like the idea of a flail-wielding paladin. My challenge was (Cav) the sheer weight of throwing axes to get around the ranged restriction (couldn't carry many). People can work around that; I just didn't think it was worth bothering.

    I love the Paladin's specials, but they seem to get less significant over time, while fighters (GM) get super powerful. Or maybe that's just because I played with the uber fighter NPC
    Sarevok
    and he made Minsc look silly with that GM...

  • TalroshTalrosh Member Posts: 5
    ryuken87 said:

    @Talrosh
    You can't have more than 2* as a paladin in any weapon (although you can still put 3* in dual wielding style).

    I did not know you could only put 2 in any weapon (thought it was 4 for all warrior classes). I guess that only fighters can put more 2 in any weapon? Gues that explain the high having fighter in any dual class :P.

    I guess an alternative would be going Fighter and than dualclass into a cleric. In this scenario would you still be able to put 5 points in any weapon while lvling as a cleric afterwards?

  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    @Talrosh - I think that you get the extra mastery points back when you exceed fighter level as a cleric, but I'm not positive. I never dual classed, partially because I'm so disinterested in starting back at Level One for a while, even if it makes the character more powerful.
  • LuxeflexLuxeflex Member Posts: 7
    Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that long swords are also pretty good for a paladin with a shield, especially in BG:EE. In BG2, not that great until you get Blackrazor (which is my all-time-favorite).
  • karnor00karnor00 Member Posts: 680
    Personally I'd go with two handed swords in BG2 and get Carsomyr. It's a great weapon and available very early on. Purifier is decent too, but I prefer Carsomyr.

    Flail of Ages is undoubtedly an awesome weapon, but there are presumably other members of your party who can make good use of it. And unless you pick up Keldorn for some paladin-on-paladin action, probably nobody else can use Carsomyr.
  • MichelleMichelle Member Posts: 549
    Another tank ability available to Cavalier is damage reduction. Hardiness HLA, Armor of Faith and Defender of Easthaven give a total of 85% damage reduction. HeHeHe, or use DoE off hand with rat form from Cloak of Sewers to give 110% damage reduction.

    I use Sion's setup and and alternate with Carsomyr. If Carsomyr's ability actually works in BGII-EE I will probably use it exclusively for hand to hand and axes for ranged.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    @_Nightfall_ has just made a very good point. Flail proficiency is very good for the Flail of Ages, but Defender of Easthaven (+2 flail, adds 20% physical damage resistance) is also very useful in BG2.

    If you're going for a defensive "tank" build then dual-wielding the Defender of Easthaven for physical resistance and Purifier (Bastard sword) for magic resistance can be pretty potent. You miss out on maximising your damage, but if you mix in Armor of Faith and the Hardiness HLA to decent magic resistance you'll be hard to scratch.

    As Paladins can only put 2 points into any given weapon you'll actually be able to diversify a lot. By the End of SOA and level 18ish you'll be 9 proficiencies total, enough to have 2-handed sword and 2h style for Carsomyr, maxed dual wield and 2 points in either Bastard sword or Flail. Mix and match depending on if you need survivability, damage output or magic resistance.
  • Time4TiddyTime4Tiddy Member Posts: 262
    Just a note that in EE the ankheg armor can be worn with protection items and has the same base armor as full plate. Given your desire to tank, I would say in BG1 just get your weapon choices up and running and go single hand with a shield. You should be able to get down to -10 AC and be basically unhittable if you use all the AC items in BG1. 18 dex + ankheg or full plate + large shield +1 + helm of glory (for Cha) + balduran's cloak + ring prot +2. If that's not enough, you can always bump your Dex to 21 for another AC drop with Draw upon Holy Might. Then, in BG2 when the AC isn't as big a factor as resistance, you can start putting your points into two-weapon fighting, you'll start out the game with a shield and then switch over about the time you hit your second 2WF pip.
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