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It's funny that mages can use slings but not bows...

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  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Even the noodliest of nerds can get performance out of a sling, but it takes at least some upper body strength to use a bow. I dunno. Just cuz.
  • chaosapiantchaosapiant Member Posts: 32
    Heindrich1988 said:

    Sling shots are easy to use, but don't pack much power. Both traditional slings and bows require a lot of training to use with much effectiveness.

    For example although the composite bow was recognised to be more effective than the crossbow in the hands of an experienced archer, the Chinese Qin and Han Empires mass produced crossbows because it was much easier to train a vast conscript army to use crossbows, whereas the elite (professional) regiments actually used bows.

    In England, in order to maintain a large manpower base that could effectively deploy as long bowmen, England had laws that made archery practise mandatory for citizen, and banned other leisure activities, cos u know, playing football like a boss doesn't help when French knights are charging at you at Agincourt.

    It's a sling, not a slingshot, two totally different things. I can shoot a bow far better than a sling, but can see a skinny wizard getting more mileage out of a sling because you don't need as much strength to use it.

  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    just think of it like this
  • chaosapiantchaosapiant Member Posts: 32
    That's not what a sling is though. Again that's a slingshot. If you want to see a sling, google images of the fight between David and Goliath.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    chaosapiant said:

    but can see a skinny wizard getting more mileage out of a sling because you don't need as much strength to use it.

    This is pretty much the only logical reason I can think of.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    meagloth said:

    Verrryy different. On put a hole in a mans head, one puts a dent in an apple. On requires a massive amount of traing, the oth about half an hour.

    Who ever said that the wizard becomes 'Proficient' in the weapon? I know that my mage in BG will hit a target maybe one time out of 20 or thirty throws. Basically he hits the broad side of a barn more often.

    Besides, didn't David slay Goliath with a sling? (not really, at least not according to my History teacher).
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    Never argue logic in a game where you can throw fireballs.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    the_spyder said:

    meagloth said:

    Verrryy different. On put a hole in a mans head, one puts a dent in an apple. On requires a massive amount of traing, the oth about half an hour.

    Who ever said that the wizard becomes 'Proficient' in the weapon? I know that my mage in BG will hit a target maybe one time out of 20 or thirty throws. Basically he hits the broad side of a barn more often.
    He can't hit a target even if it's right in front of him and standing still... but if you put it sleep, he's suddenly deadly accurate even at the edge of his vision.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Felspawn said:

    One of the greatest changes imo to the low level wizard of 3rd edition was letting him use a crossbow

    I personally don't like this convention. I am OK with it being used (by others) and think it is great that Wizards actually get to DO something in combat when they aren't casting spells, but.....

    The Wizards that I play are all about the magic. Why do something the mundane way, when there is Magic to be had/manipulated? "My" wizards never get very good at anything besides staves, and even then it is simply whacking something hard with the pointy end. They'd much rather be spending time learning/casting spells than any physical pursuit. In PnP (way back in the day when I played), when asked what my Wizard was doing for any given round of combat, if it wasn't 'Cast X spell' it was "Duck and cover". Let the fighters do the dirty work. That's what I pay them for.

    This is my own personal brand of playing a Wizard and I am not in any way proposing or championing that wizards not get X-bows. Merely that my wizards don't bother with them.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,170
    In my own PNP game I allow mages to use crossbows, it is by far the simplest medieval/ancient missile weapon IRL.

    However, we can just as easily argue that the rationale has to do with encoumberance and freedom of movement. In which case, carrying a crossbow could be as burdonsome as wearing a light armor. So the Mage may be restricted to weapons that are easy to carry and don't weigh the character down. Of course that opens a whole other can of worms about encoumberance issues...

    And for the record, it is the sling, not the slingshot that is very dangerous in the hands of a skilled slinger. Many ancient armies made extensive use of it. Large, almost baseball size sling stones have been found stockpiled in ancient fortresses and battle sites. According to the Bible, the shepherd David, who was well experienced with his sling from protecting his flock from lions and wolves; killed or incapacitated the Philistine champion Goliath with one (the second account of the battle says he decapitated his enemy with a sword to be sure he was dead). Whatever one thinks of the validity of the ancient text, there is no reason to doubt the deadliness of the weapon.
  • SharShar Member Posts: 158
    I am inclined to think that crossbow would be better than slings as less skill is required
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    atcDave said:

    And for the record, it is the sling, not the slingshot that is very dangerous in the hands of a skilled slinger. Many ancient armies made extensive use of it. Large, almost baseball size sling stones have been found stockpiled in ancient fortresses and battle sites. According to the Bible, the shepherd David, who was well experienced with his sling from protecting his flock from lions and wolves; killed or incapacitated the Philistine champion Goliath with one (the second account of the battle says he decapitated his enemy with a sword to be sure he was dead). Whatever one thinks of the validity of the ancient text, there is no reason to doubt the deadliness of the weapon.

    Yeah. I mean regardless of the accuracy of the story, it is a story that exists to illustrate that the sling is a deadly weapon. If the sling was not an effective (but unassuming) weapon then the story probably would have uhad David use something else.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,170
    Eudaemonium said:

    atcDave said:

    And for the record, it is the sling, not the slingshot that is very dangerous in the hands of a skilled slinger. Many ancient armies made extensive use of it. Large, almost baseball size sling stones have been found stockpiled in ancient fortresses and battle sites. According to the Bible, the shepherd David, who was well experienced with his sling from protecting his flock from lions and wolves; killed or incapacitated the Philistine champion Goliath with one (the second account of the battle says he decapitated his enemy with a sword to be sure he was dead). Whatever one thinks of the validity of the ancient text, there is no reason to doubt the deadliness of the weapon.

    Yeah. I mean regardless of the accuracy of the story, it is a story that exists to illustrate that the sling is a deadly weapon. If the sling was not an effective (but unassuming) weapon then the story probably would have uhad David use something else.
    It's also the only ancient or medieval story I can think of where a slinger is the hero!
  • SharShar Member Posts: 158
    Eudaemonium said:

    atcDave said:

    And for the record, it is the sling, not the slingshot that is very dangerous in the hands of a skilled slinger. Many ancient armies made extensive use of it. Large, almost baseball size sling stones have been found stockpiled in ancient fortresses and battle sites. According to the Bible, the shepherd David, who was well experienced with his sling from protecting his flock from lions and wolves; killed or incapacitated the Philistine champion Goliath with one (the second account of the battle says he decapitated his enemy with a sword to be sure he was dead). Whatever one thinks of the validity of the ancient text, there is no reason to doubt the deadliness of the weapon.

    Yeah. I mean regardless of the accuracy of the story, it is a story that exists to illustrate that the sling is a deadly weapon. If the sling was not an effective (but unassuming) weapon then the story probably would have uhad David use something else.
    I agree though i think the sling i significantly easier to make and maintain than other counterparts hence its in the story because it was low level but highly common weapon. And indeed if something else was common Goliath could have been defeated with Holy Hand Grenade or something...
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    atcDave said:

    However, we can just as easily argue that the rationale has to do with encoumberance and freedom of movement. In which case, carrying a crossbow could be as burdonsome as wearing a light armor. So the Mage may be restricted to weapons that are easy to carry and don't weigh the character down. Of course that opens a whole other can of worms about encoumberance issues...

    Really, the reason why Mages can't use crossbows in 2e is either for balance reasons (limiting them to lower damage weapons) and/or flavor reasons (i.e., a wizard carrying around a crossbow "doesn't look right"). Like a lot of rules, you really have to ignore what the book says and come up with a justification that makes sense to you (or change the rule to something that does make sense).
  • Time4TiddyTime4Tiddy Member Posts: 262
    I'm pretty sure it had more to do with encumbrance. The mage is casting spells one second (with somatic elements) and slinging the next second. The sling is light and can pretty much just hang down while you are waving your hands around for the casting. If you were shooting arrows or a crossbow you'd have to manipulate a large and possibly heavy item in between casting.

    Don't ask me to explain thief/mages or fighter/mages. :)
  • FelspawnFelspawn Member Posts: 161
    the_spyder said:

    Felspawn said:

    One of the greatest changes imo to the low level wizard of 3rd edition was letting him use a crossbow

    I personally don't like this convention. I am OK with it being used (by others) and think it is great that Wizards actually get to DO something in combat when they aren't casting spells, but.....

    The Wizards that I play are all about the magic. Why do something the mundane way, when there is Magic to be had/manipulated? "My" wizards never get very good at anything besides staves, and even then it is simply whacking something hard with the pointy end. They'd much rather be spending time learning/casting spells than any physical pursuit. In PnP (way back in the day when I played), when asked what my Wizard was doing for any given round of combat, if it wasn't 'Cast X spell' it was "Duck and cover". Let the fighters do the dirty work. That's what I pay them for.

    This is my own personal brand of playing a Wizard and I am not in any way proposing or championing that wizards not get X-bows. Merely that my wizards don't bother with them.

    "duck and cover" pff exactly whats wrong with 2E mages
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I've always thought the story of David & Goliath serves to glorify David, and see the fact that he slayed Goliath with a mere sling to be a part of that. Regardless, I agree it certainly takes skill to use one.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    You can tuck a sling or darts in your robes, not so much a crossbow. That's probably why mages are limited to those weapons. Maybe non-staff weapons are not permitted in wizard schools and if you want to carry one you have to hide it.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    For your perusal, the humble slingshot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVdq1Z5cSvA
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    chaosapiant said:

    That's not what a sling is though. Again that's a slingshot. If you want to see a sling, google images of the fight between David and Goliath.

    I know, that's why I said think of it like a wrist rocket aka slingshot. Makes it easier to believe that a mage can use it effectively ....

    I guess my failed attempt at being witty


  • blazeheroicblazeheroic Member Posts: 37
    Two words. Halfling. Warslinger. One of the deadliest presige classes I've played as a halfling.
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  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    the_spyder said:

    meagloth said:



    Besides, didn't David slay Goliath with a sling? (not really, at least not according to my History teacher).

    Well the actual biblical story has david hitting Goliath with the stone then taking Goliath's sword and cutting his head off.

  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    Alexisisinneed said:

    the_spyder said:

    meagloth said:



    Besides, didn't David slay Goliath with a sling? (not really, at least not according to my History teacher).

    Well the actual biblical story has david hitting Goliath with the stone then taking Goliath's sword and cutting his head off.

    I love this story because it's the Biblical equivalent of killing someone with a headshot and then teabagging the corpse.
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