[Fat Thread] Multiclassing and Such
Kithrixx
Member Posts: 215
WARNING: THIS THREAD IS A WALL OF TEXT THAT MAKES THE GREAT WALL OF CHINA LOOK LIKE LINCOLN LOGS
So all of this talk about kits and multiclasses and arguing about what would be balanced got me all fired up and I’ve decided to write a whole bunch of words on the subject. This thread will contain my stance on several topics, some suggestions involving Class Kits, and a list of every possible multiclass and show off that applying kits to one or both of the classes would not shatter balance like people seem to believe it will. Everything will include a Long Story Made Short (or a tl;dr version, if you will) at the beginning summing everything up, if you’re of a mind to skip the incoming wall of text.
MULTICLASSES AND PROFICIENCY
The Long Story Made Short: Multiclass weapon proficiencies are fine as they are and the restrictions do not need to be lifted.
While it would make sense to allow multiclass Fighters access to the highest weapon proficiency that’s available to straight Fighters and Dual Classed Fighters of both before and after, the fact of the matter is that it’s a major point of balance and one of the few advantages that Humans have with Dual Class. Nonhumans have their own advantages in the form of Multiclasses and the benefit of ability score mods, allowing you to create characters that are inclined towards certain roles (Dwarven or Half Orc Fighters, Elven or Halfling Rogues, ect). Humans have the advantage to Dual Class, which (with proper planning) can become much more powerful. It’s also the gameplay translation of the Humans’ supposed adaptability, and I’d rather not see what is supposed to be a feature be scrapped. Besides, it’s mentioned in the multiclass description that some restrictions may apply, and it’s my belief that this is one of them, to trade off on the massive amount of additional abilities that the character gains access to by multiclassing rather than singleclassing.
CLASS KITS FOR EVERYONE
The Long Story Made Short: Class Kits being able to be applied to both sides of a Multiclass character would not significantly impact balance.
One of the major knee-jerk reactions to my suggestion and discussion of the idea that a player be allowed access to the various Class Kits when making multiclass characters (so one may roll, for instance, a Berserker/Priest of Lathander) would be stupidly overpowered. The standard Multiclasses and most Dual Classes are covered pretty well by Play It Hardcore, so I’m going to outsource that section of my debate to them:
Baldur's Gate: Dual and Multiclassing
One of the major things that I noticed when reading that page is that many of the “extremely overpowered” things already exist in some form, such as the Kensai/Mage or the Kensai/Thief (I’m amused at how popular the Kensai is in game-breaking-builds, actually). My argument for allowing Dual Classes to pick kits at any stage (creation and the decision to Dual-Class) and allowing Multiclass characters to pick one or even two kits during creation is essentially this: it will be no worse than it already is while opening up a great many more options for players, which will increase replayability by a significant amount.
I’d also like to mention (for those who will inevitably bring it up) that Class Kits are specializations. This is true, but not to the extent that a character would not be able to expand into another class and pick up another kit. The base classes (fighter, mage, and so on) are already specialists, and class kits define what specific kind of class they are (for instance, Kensai are Dexterity Fighters, and Invokers are Mages that focus on Invocation). If they were unable to turn away from these “incredibly specialized” classes, then Dual Classing would not be available for Kitted characters. To give an example:
What it's like is if I decided to be a mason, and went to a trade school for masonry. After completing school and becoming an apprentice mason, I decide that I instead wish to be an electrician, and then go to a trade school for electricians, where I complete my degree and become a master electrician. Just because I became a master electrician does not mean that I have lost whatever masonry skills I already know.
To make a comparison for multi-classing, well… all I really have to bring up is the Double Major programs that many colleges offer. There is not a “Science” degree, but a wide variety of different kinds of sciences. Specializing in something does not limit you from specializing in something else.
Now then, on to the list. Please keep in mind that if a multiclass is not available, then it’s a Dual Class that I’m referencing. If there is a combination that I do not mention, then the game simply does not allow it (for instance, Bard/Anything).
FIGHTER/THIEF
Fighter/Assassin
The basic rundown is that a Fighter/Assassin suffers from Crippling Overspecialization. He’s great at Backstabs, and… nothing else. The biggest problem with any Assassin kit (which I’m just pointing out now before I repeat myself over and over in the various fighterkit/assassin breakdowns) is that you have so few Thief Skill points to work with. You have to dump literally everything into stealth, or you never get sneaky enough to pull off the coveted Assassin Backstab. Even at much later levels, you’re starved for points in lock picking, trap detection, and trap disarming (all of which are REALLY IMPORTANT for a thief). Multiclassing makes you progress slower AND shorter, so until you start getting the backstab multiplier beyond 5x (as the Assassin kit doesn’t actually progress it faster, just further with later levels), you’re essentially a Fighter/Thief that can’t do anything interesting beyond getting sneaky. I will admit that AT LATER LEVELS, Fighter Kit/Assassin is incredibly damaging, especially when combining class abilities. However, until it reaches that point, it’s kind of a burden, and you’d probably just be better off at picking a Fighter/Thief if you don’t have a massive hardon for Backstabs.
Berserker/Assassin
The Assassin doesn’t really have much to say for after that Backstab, so having Enrage’s bonuses to back him up if the target turns out to be heavily wounded and not outright murdered can be very useful.
Wizard Slayer/Assassin
I’m sorry; did you want to cast a spell? I can’t hear you over my poison interrupting your casting and my sword knocking the train of thought out of your head. Potentially the most dangerous combination for dealing with casters. Combining with the later Use All Item can overcome his aversion to magic items, roughly quadrupling his equipment potential.
Kensai/Assassin
The problem child that people bring up ALL THE TIME… is really not that good until much, much later. Granted, Kai Backstabs are painful stuff, but as mentioned in the General Assassin breakdown, you’re not going to be worth much beyond that initial backstab for a significant chunk of time. A Kensai/Thief is going to be fragile because not only do they have half of their level HP being dictated by one of the more fragile classes in the game, but also they can wear no armor at all and are forced to melee.
But then Epic Level abilities happen, and things get kinda stupid. People would cite Use All Items as the most gamebreaking factor, but they often forget one of the Thief’s other high levels: Assassination. Assuming you have a high enough THAC0, Kai and Assassination can drop literally thousands of damage on a target in a single hit. Following up with a Whirlwind (or Greater Whirlwind) can make very quick work of whatever’s bothering you in a horrendous fashion. The biggest problem remains the lack of utility, however. This character would be very single-purpose, and only slightly more effective than a Kensai/Thief in terms of backstab damage, who trades an additional 2x Backstab damage for… literally everything a Thief is good for in terms of utility. A personal choice, to be sure, but it’s not a trade that I would make.
Fighter/Bounty Hunter
Kind of like the Assassin, the Bounty Hunter is a kind of thief that’s good at only one thing. While his skill distribution isn’t as limited as the Assassin’s, he still runs into the same sort of problems. There’s also the issue of Bounty Hunter’s special skills not exactly meshing with any of the Fighter Kit special skills. Not to say that it isn’t viable, but there isn’t much to say other than “it’s like a Fighter/Thief but you dropped everything into traps”.
Fighter/Swashbuckler
Swashbucklers are basically Fighter/Thieves anyways, so naturally it would synergize with all of the Fighter Kits. Not having backstab means that the player can instead focus on putting all of the points into Detect Traps, Disarm Traps, and Pick Lock and (generally) keep on the heavier armor because there’s no real need to sneak around. These factors make the Swashbuckler the strongest choice by far if you’re looking for gobs of raw utility and additional combat prowess. The presence of the class-based attack bonuses are also nice, as they somewhat make up for the lack of ability to reach the higher weapon proficiencies with Multiclass characters and the additional armor class bonus helps with durability. If you really want to be sneaky, you can get a caster of some kind to drop Invisibility on you (or you could even use a Ring of Invisibility, assuming you’re not a Wizard Slayer).
Berserker/Swashbuckler
Combining the Swashbuckler’s class bonuses to hit, damage, and armor class with Enrage can actually lead to the character being more capable than a pure Berserker when they Enrage due to all of the bonuses coming together.
Wizard Slayer/Swashbuckler
Not much to say beyond the general combat bonus being nice and having additional utility be useful. The later lift of the “no magic” restriction with Use All Items is nice, but that’s 3 million experience down the road.
Kensai/Swashbuckler
The additional damage/to hit is fantastic, as is the bonus armor. Not capable of the Murder that is a Kai Backstab or Kai Assassinate, but is much better at general combat than the other Kensai/Thief builds, and has the option to completely eschew being sneaky in favor of picking up the crazy utility that the Swashbuckler can.
FIGHTER/CLERIC
Berserker/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Cleric and his access to amazing buffs in conjunction with combat prowess, except that the Berserker grants an additional buff that makes hitting things even more painful and has access to healing, something that could potentially save him from the Winded state killing him. Also notable are the additional abilities granted by the different dogmas:
Talos: Lightning Bolt becomes a decent ranged option for the normally range-starved Berserker, while Storm Shield can be dropped with Enrage for some additional durability while Raging.
Helm: Having the Seeking Sword to whip out when “weapon has no effect” pops up is very useful, in addition to having 3 attacks per round at lower levels. Combined with Enrage, it could end up with some players being able to take on certain encounters before they’re supposed to (killing the Golem in Irenicus’s Dungeon comes to mind), but loses its effectiveness over time. True Sight is a nice additional utility, but not too terribly interesting.
Lathander: Hold Undead is always useful, because there will always be Undead (especially in BGII). Boon of Lathander, while short, is a significant increase in damage potential and can be combined with Enrage to put a nasty hurt on whatever is bothering you.
Wizard Slayer/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t by standard Fighter/Cleric. Fighter with buffs and heals that’s slightly better versus casters, with the downside of not having a wide range of magical items to utilize.
Kensai/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t by standard Fighter/Cleric.
Helm: Kai can make Seeking Sword pretty painful if you have nothing better (only likely at lower levels).
Lathander: Kai + Boon is a solid offensive combo, in addition to the other combat buffs that Clerics get access to (Bless, for instance).
Talos: Kai + Storm Shield can lead to the character becoming unstoppable in many (if not most) encounters by sheer resistances alone.
FIGHTER/MAGE
Being fairly durable with the ability to apply buffs to oneself to increase an attack ability that actually matters rather than being an afterthought is pretty great. Tenser's Transformation is particularly notable, capable of making the character have well over 200 hitpoints and hit like a truck. Once you get Spell Trigger, you can cast it immediately and start wearing better armor so you don’t have to worry about spell failure. Condensed into the [Mage] tag rather than going through all of the schools of magic, because the differences can be assumed. Already well covered by the Play It Hardcore page on Multiclasses, I feel that the Fighter Kits could use some special mention.
Berserker/[Mage]
A wide variety of buffs to combine with Enrage to make a very powerful combatant. At later levels, drop Tenser’s Transformation and watch them turn into a complete monster.
Wizard Slayer/[Mage]
Delicious irony.
Kensai/[Mage]
Capable of overcoming the combined miserable AC of both classes with defensive buffs and obliterating anything that gets close, the Kensage is the one class that competes with the Berserker/Mage in terms of Tenser mixing effectiveness. While the Berserker is far more durable, the Kensai is unstoppable with Kai and Transformation engaged, often one-shotting everything they comes in contact with and shrugging off what doesn’t kill them.
FIGHTER/DRUID
Covered very well by the Play It Hardcore guide on kits. I’ll be covering the Kit interactions, because it doesn’t (because multiple kits is my own suggestion and not actually in the game).
Berserker/Totemic Druid
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Druid, other than a larger access of summons to meatshield for you. The loss of shapeshifting nukes any direct synergy between the two kits, but that is not to say that it’s not viable. After all, having the summons to block for you when you’re winded can end up being very helpful, in addition to a good distraction when you’re Enraged and hitting things.
Wizard Slayer/Totemic Druid
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Druid, other than the ability to derail trains of thought in casters. The summons can help a Slayer get close to the mage in question, by virtue of general meatshielding.
Kensai/Totemic Druid
Animal Exploitation so you can pull off nasty Kai hits. PETA would have a fit.
Berserker/Shapeshifter
Enrage would be great while in Werewolf form, if it was not for the fact that the Werewolf form kinda sucks compared to what it was actually supposed to be.
Wizard Slayer/Shapeshifter
The high magic resistances of this class would make it able to shrug off all but the most powerful spells without any kind of buffs. Just walk right up to mages and start hitting them in the face without a care in the world.
Kensai/Shapeshifter
The lack of armor on both classes synchs well, as they’re both focused on hitting things really hard and really fast. Assuming the shapeshift forms get fixed, a Greater Werewolf with Kai going will lead to a very bad dog.
Avenger/Fighter
Really not that great at being a fighter mix considering the hit to Strength and Con. However, having a Fighter-influenced Sword Spider can lead to some stupidly high damage, but that’s really just a question of if you want to go down that road. I wouldn’t. Spiders are jerks.
THIEF/MAGE
Assassin/[Mage]
Assuming you can get close enough to something to backstab it, well, go you. I wouldn’t advise it, though, because if you don’t kill it immediately, well… you’re within melee range and trying to cast spells to kill whatever you just irritated. The presence of a wide variety of defensive buffs can mitigate this, however, especially Improved Invisibility, which makes this pretty nasty.
Bounty Hunter/[Mage]
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. You basically gain access to an entire additional spell circle with the traps. They’re not terribly varied in application, but they deal cringe-worthy damage and at way later levels, ignore saves. Foreknowledge is blatantly OP with this combination, even moreso when you consider that you don’t even need points in Hide if you just drop Invisibility on yourself and sustain a Non-Detection buff (and once you get the Cloak of Non-Detection, you don’t even need to buff yourself to walk around and trap everything).
Swashbuckler/[Mage]
A condensed Fighter/Thief/Mage, and comfortably so. Passable combat ability with Thief utility and Mage firepower.
THIEF/CLERIC
Assassin/Cleric
Thanks to @Dazzu for pointing out my original error of thinking that this was useless. Turns out you can get backstabs from blunt things if they're really big sticks. Fancy that.
Either way, Assassin/Cleric suffers from the same sort of thing that the Assassin/Fighter does, in that they don't gain much from the Assassin side other than the capability to backstab because the Assassin is so starved for skill points (which is made worse by the multiclass setting). Like the Assassin/Mage, the availability of spells allow the character to work around a lot of things, though, so that's something to consider.
Bounty Hunter/Cleric
Useful for the same reasons that the Bounty Hunter/[Mage] would be: Access to what is essentially an additional spell circle. Using Find Traps rather than relying on detection allows the player to dump everything into Open Lock after Set Traps is boosted to maximum effectiveness.
Swashbuckler/Cleric
A condensed Fighter/Thief/Cleric. Good for getting that delicious THAC0 that Clerics often lack while picking up some handy utility and losing nothing that you wouldn’t lose already by being a Swashbuckler. I’m not exactly sure –how– you swashbuckle with hammers and maces, but I’m sure it’s happened in history before.
CLERIC/[MAGE]
In all combinations, MORE SPELLS THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR
CLERIC/RANGER
Funny story, only good Clerics can dual-class into Rangers. So…
Priest of Lathander/Archer
The limitation of Cleric proficiencies kind of kills this entirely. Sort of good if you want to boost that Sling, but you’re really better off with the other kits.
Priest of Lathander/Stalker
Sneaky, sort of. Backstab doesn’t work with blunt weapons, so that’s kind of a waste.
Priest of Lathander/Beast Master
You know how Borderlands has a Bazillion guns? These dudes have a bazillion summons. Awesome if you’re into that kind of thing.
CREDITS
Play it Hardcore, for being a pretty great quick-reference for a lot of stuff.
Baldur’s Gate II, for tolerating my constant character generation, exp boosting, and CTRL+Y/CTRL+K shenanigans to get rid of the trash characters when I was done.
Shadowkeeper, for allowing me to test these crazy abominations.
Beamdog, for putting forth the effort to make Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition happen, and for being so awesome in working with the community while doing so.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
I’m a huge jerk that likes to play videogames and has a particular fondness for DnD after my Dad DM’d for me a couple games in my younger years. I currently work as a Balance/Concept/Design consultant for the Night of the Dead, one of the most popular mods on Starcraft II. I’m doubtful that anyone will care about this section, but sometimes job offers come from the most unexpected places, so it’s worth a shot. Hope you enjoyed the read.
Let the discussion begin!
So all of this talk about kits and multiclasses and arguing about what would be balanced got me all fired up and I’ve decided to write a whole bunch of words on the subject. This thread will contain my stance on several topics, some suggestions involving Class Kits, and a list of every possible multiclass and show off that applying kits to one or both of the classes would not shatter balance like people seem to believe it will. Everything will include a Long Story Made Short (or a tl;dr version, if you will) at the beginning summing everything up, if you’re of a mind to skip the incoming wall of text.
MULTICLASSES AND PROFICIENCY
The Long Story Made Short: Multiclass weapon proficiencies are fine as they are and the restrictions do not need to be lifted.
While it would make sense to allow multiclass Fighters access to the highest weapon proficiency that’s available to straight Fighters and Dual Classed Fighters of both before and after, the fact of the matter is that it’s a major point of balance and one of the few advantages that Humans have with Dual Class. Nonhumans have their own advantages in the form of Multiclasses and the benefit of ability score mods, allowing you to create characters that are inclined towards certain roles (Dwarven or Half Orc Fighters, Elven or Halfling Rogues, ect). Humans have the advantage to Dual Class, which (with proper planning) can become much more powerful. It’s also the gameplay translation of the Humans’ supposed adaptability, and I’d rather not see what is supposed to be a feature be scrapped. Besides, it’s mentioned in the multiclass description that some restrictions may apply, and it’s my belief that this is one of them, to trade off on the massive amount of additional abilities that the character gains access to by multiclassing rather than singleclassing.
CLASS KITS FOR EVERYONE
The Long Story Made Short: Class Kits being able to be applied to both sides of a Multiclass character would not significantly impact balance.
One of the major knee-jerk reactions to my suggestion and discussion of the idea that a player be allowed access to the various Class Kits when making multiclass characters (so one may roll, for instance, a Berserker/Priest of Lathander) would be stupidly overpowered. The standard Multiclasses and most Dual Classes are covered pretty well by Play It Hardcore, so I’m going to outsource that section of my debate to them:
Baldur's Gate: Dual and Multiclassing
One of the major things that I noticed when reading that page is that many of the “extremely overpowered” things already exist in some form, such as the Kensai/Mage or the Kensai/Thief (I’m amused at how popular the Kensai is in game-breaking-builds, actually). My argument for allowing Dual Classes to pick kits at any stage (creation and the decision to Dual-Class) and allowing Multiclass characters to pick one or even two kits during creation is essentially this: it will be no worse than it already is while opening up a great many more options for players, which will increase replayability by a significant amount.
I’d also like to mention (for those who will inevitably bring it up) that Class Kits are specializations. This is true, but not to the extent that a character would not be able to expand into another class and pick up another kit. The base classes (fighter, mage, and so on) are already specialists, and class kits define what specific kind of class they are (for instance, Kensai are Dexterity Fighters, and Invokers are Mages that focus on Invocation). If they were unable to turn away from these “incredibly specialized” classes, then Dual Classing would not be available for Kitted characters. To give an example:
What it's like is if I decided to be a mason, and went to a trade school for masonry. After completing school and becoming an apprentice mason, I decide that I instead wish to be an electrician, and then go to a trade school for electricians, where I complete my degree and become a master electrician. Just because I became a master electrician does not mean that I have lost whatever masonry skills I already know.
To make a comparison for multi-classing, well… all I really have to bring up is the Double Major programs that many colleges offer. There is not a “Science” degree, but a wide variety of different kinds of sciences. Specializing in something does not limit you from specializing in something else.
Now then, on to the list. Please keep in mind that if a multiclass is not available, then it’s a Dual Class that I’m referencing. If there is a combination that I do not mention, then the game simply does not allow it (for instance, Bard/Anything).
FIGHTER/THIEF
Fighter/Assassin
The basic rundown is that a Fighter/Assassin suffers from Crippling Overspecialization. He’s great at Backstabs, and… nothing else. The biggest problem with any Assassin kit (which I’m just pointing out now before I repeat myself over and over in the various fighterkit/assassin breakdowns) is that you have so few Thief Skill points to work with. You have to dump literally everything into stealth, or you never get sneaky enough to pull off the coveted Assassin Backstab. Even at much later levels, you’re starved for points in lock picking, trap detection, and trap disarming (all of which are REALLY IMPORTANT for a thief). Multiclassing makes you progress slower AND shorter, so until you start getting the backstab multiplier beyond 5x (as the Assassin kit doesn’t actually progress it faster, just further with later levels), you’re essentially a Fighter/Thief that can’t do anything interesting beyond getting sneaky. I will admit that AT LATER LEVELS, Fighter Kit/Assassin is incredibly damaging, especially when combining class abilities. However, until it reaches that point, it’s kind of a burden, and you’d probably just be better off at picking a Fighter/Thief if you don’t have a massive hardon for Backstabs.
Berserker/Assassin
The Assassin doesn’t really have much to say for after that Backstab, so having Enrage’s bonuses to back him up if the target turns out to be heavily wounded and not outright murdered can be very useful.
Wizard Slayer/Assassin
I’m sorry; did you want to cast a spell? I can’t hear you over my poison interrupting your casting and my sword knocking the train of thought out of your head. Potentially the most dangerous combination for dealing with casters. Combining with the later Use All Item can overcome his aversion to magic items, roughly quadrupling his equipment potential.
Kensai/Assassin
The problem child that people bring up ALL THE TIME… is really not that good until much, much later. Granted, Kai Backstabs are painful stuff, but as mentioned in the General Assassin breakdown, you’re not going to be worth much beyond that initial backstab for a significant chunk of time. A Kensai/Thief is going to be fragile because not only do they have half of their level HP being dictated by one of the more fragile classes in the game, but also they can wear no armor at all and are forced to melee.
But then Epic Level abilities happen, and things get kinda stupid. People would cite Use All Items as the most gamebreaking factor, but they often forget one of the Thief’s other high levels: Assassination. Assuming you have a high enough THAC0, Kai and Assassination can drop literally thousands of damage on a target in a single hit. Following up with a Whirlwind (or Greater Whirlwind) can make very quick work of whatever’s bothering you in a horrendous fashion. The biggest problem remains the lack of utility, however. This character would be very single-purpose, and only slightly more effective than a Kensai/Thief in terms of backstab damage, who trades an additional 2x Backstab damage for… literally everything a Thief is good for in terms of utility. A personal choice, to be sure, but it’s not a trade that I would make.
Fighter/Bounty Hunter
Kind of like the Assassin, the Bounty Hunter is a kind of thief that’s good at only one thing. While his skill distribution isn’t as limited as the Assassin’s, he still runs into the same sort of problems. There’s also the issue of Bounty Hunter’s special skills not exactly meshing with any of the Fighter Kit special skills. Not to say that it isn’t viable, but there isn’t much to say other than “it’s like a Fighter/Thief but you dropped everything into traps”.
Fighter/Swashbuckler
Swashbucklers are basically Fighter/Thieves anyways, so naturally it would synergize with all of the Fighter Kits. Not having backstab means that the player can instead focus on putting all of the points into Detect Traps, Disarm Traps, and Pick Lock and (generally) keep on the heavier armor because there’s no real need to sneak around. These factors make the Swashbuckler the strongest choice by far if you’re looking for gobs of raw utility and additional combat prowess. The presence of the class-based attack bonuses are also nice, as they somewhat make up for the lack of ability to reach the higher weapon proficiencies with Multiclass characters and the additional armor class bonus helps with durability. If you really want to be sneaky, you can get a caster of some kind to drop Invisibility on you (or you could even use a Ring of Invisibility, assuming you’re not a Wizard Slayer).
Berserker/Swashbuckler
Combining the Swashbuckler’s class bonuses to hit, damage, and armor class with Enrage can actually lead to the character being more capable than a pure Berserker when they Enrage due to all of the bonuses coming together.
Wizard Slayer/Swashbuckler
Not much to say beyond the general combat bonus being nice and having additional utility be useful. The later lift of the “no magic” restriction with Use All Items is nice, but that’s 3 million experience down the road.
Kensai/Swashbuckler
The additional damage/to hit is fantastic, as is the bonus armor. Not capable of the Murder that is a Kai Backstab or Kai Assassinate, but is much better at general combat than the other Kensai/Thief builds, and has the option to completely eschew being sneaky in favor of picking up the crazy utility that the Swashbuckler can.
FIGHTER/CLERIC
Berserker/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Cleric and his access to amazing buffs in conjunction with combat prowess, except that the Berserker grants an additional buff that makes hitting things even more painful and has access to healing, something that could potentially save him from the Winded state killing him. Also notable are the additional abilities granted by the different dogmas:
Talos: Lightning Bolt becomes a decent ranged option for the normally range-starved Berserker, while Storm Shield can be dropped with Enrage for some additional durability while Raging.
Helm: Having the Seeking Sword to whip out when “weapon has no effect” pops up is very useful, in addition to having 3 attacks per round at lower levels. Combined with Enrage, it could end up with some players being able to take on certain encounters before they’re supposed to (killing the Golem in Irenicus’s Dungeon comes to mind), but loses its effectiveness over time. True Sight is a nice additional utility, but not too terribly interesting.
Lathander: Hold Undead is always useful, because there will always be Undead (especially in BGII). Boon of Lathander, while short, is a significant increase in damage potential and can be combined with Enrage to put a nasty hurt on whatever is bothering you.
Wizard Slayer/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t by standard Fighter/Cleric. Fighter with buffs and heals that’s slightly better versus casters, with the downside of not having a wide range of magical items to utilize.
Kensai/Priest of [God]
Not much more to be said that isn’t by standard Fighter/Cleric.
Helm: Kai can make Seeking Sword pretty painful if you have nothing better (only likely at lower levels).
Lathander: Kai + Boon is a solid offensive combo, in addition to the other combat buffs that Clerics get access to (Bless, for instance).
Talos: Kai + Storm Shield can lead to the character becoming unstoppable in many (if not most) encounters by sheer resistances alone.
FIGHTER/MAGE
Being fairly durable with the ability to apply buffs to oneself to increase an attack ability that actually matters rather than being an afterthought is pretty great. Tenser's Transformation is particularly notable, capable of making the character have well over 200 hitpoints and hit like a truck. Once you get Spell Trigger, you can cast it immediately and start wearing better armor so you don’t have to worry about spell failure. Condensed into the [Mage] tag rather than going through all of the schools of magic, because the differences can be assumed. Already well covered by the Play It Hardcore page on Multiclasses, I feel that the Fighter Kits could use some special mention.
Berserker/[Mage]
A wide variety of buffs to combine with Enrage to make a very powerful combatant. At later levels, drop Tenser’s Transformation and watch them turn into a complete monster.
Wizard Slayer/[Mage]
Delicious irony.
Kensai/[Mage]
Capable of overcoming the combined miserable AC of both classes with defensive buffs and obliterating anything that gets close, the Kensage is the one class that competes with the Berserker/Mage in terms of Tenser mixing effectiveness. While the Berserker is far more durable, the Kensai is unstoppable with Kai and Transformation engaged, often one-shotting everything they comes in contact with and shrugging off what doesn’t kill them.
FIGHTER/DRUID
Covered very well by the Play It Hardcore guide on kits. I’ll be covering the Kit interactions, because it doesn’t (because multiple kits is my own suggestion and not actually in the game).
Berserker/Totemic Druid
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Druid, other than a larger access of summons to meatshield for you. The loss of shapeshifting nukes any direct synergy between the two kits, but that is not to say that it’s not viable. After all, having the summons to block for you when you’re winded can end up being very helpful, in addition to a good distraction when you’re Enraged and hitting things.
Wizard Slayer/Totemic Druid
Not much more to be said that isn’t said by the standard Fighter/Druid, other than the ability to derail trains of thought in casters. The summons can help a Slayer get close to the mage in question, by virtue of general meatshielding.
Kensai/Totemic Druid
Animal Exploitation so you can pull off nasty Kai hits. PETA would have a fit.
Berserker/Shapeshifter
Enrage would be great while in Werewolf form, if it was not for the fact that the Werewolf form kinda sucks compared to what it was actually supposed to be.
Wizard Slayer/Shapeshifter
The high magic resistances of this class would make it able to shrug off all but the most powerful spells without any kind of buffs. Just walk right up to mages and start hitting them in the face without a care in the world.
Kensai/Shapeshifter
The lack of armor on both classes synchs well, as they’re both focused on hitting things really hard and really fast. Assuming the shapeshift forms get fixed, a Greater Werewolf with Kai going will lead to a very bad dog.
Avenger/Fighter
Really not that great at being a fighter mix considering the hit to Strength and Con. However, having a Fighter-influenced Sword Spider can lead to some stupidly high damage, but that’s really just a question of if you want to go down that road. I wouldn’t. Spiders are jerks.
THIEF/MAGE
Assassin/[Mage]
Assuming you can get close enough to something to backstab it, well, go you. I wouldn’t advise it, though, because if you don’t kill it immediately, well… you’re within melee range and trying to cast spells to kill whatever you just irritated. The presence of a wide variety of defensive buffs can mitigate this, however, especially Improved Invisibility, which makes this pretty nasty.
Bounty Hunter/[Mage]
Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. You basically gain access to an entire additional spell circle with the traps. They’re not terribly varied in application, but they deal cringe-worthy damage and at way later levels, ignore saves. Foreknowledge is blatantly OP with this combination, even moreso when you consider that you don’t even need points in Hide if you just drop Invisibility on yourself and sustain a Non-Detection buff (and once you get the Cloak of Non-Detection, you don’t even need to buff yourself to walk around and trap everything).
Swashbuckler/[Mage]
A condensed Fighter/Thief/Mage, and comfortably so. Passable combat ability with Thief utility and Mage firepower.
THIEF/CLERIC
Assassin/Cleric
Thanks to @Dazzu for pointing out my original error of thinking that this was useless. Turns out you can get backstabs from blunt things if they're really big sticks. Fancy that.
Either way, Assassin/Cleric suffers from the same sort of thing that the Assassin/Fighter does, in that they don't gain much from the Assassin side other than the capability to backstab because the Assassin is so starved for skill points (which is made worse by the multiclass setting). Like the Assassin/Mage, the availability of spells allow the character to work around a lot of things, though, so that's something to consider.
Bounty Hunter/Cleric
Useful for the same reasons that the Bounty Hunter/[Mage] would be: Access to what is essentially an additional spell circle. Using Find Traps rather than relying on detection allows the player to dump everything into Open Lock after Set Traps is boosted to maximum effectiveness.
Swashbuckler/Cleric
A condensed Fighter/Thief/Cleric. Good for getting that delicious THAC0 that Clerics often lack while picking up some handy utility and losing nothing that you wouldn’t lose already by being a Swashbuckler. I’m not exactly sure –how– you swashbuckle with hammers and maces, but I’m sure it’s happened in history before.
CLERIC/[MAGE]
In all combinations, MORE SPELLS THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR
CLERIC/RANGER
Funny story, only good Clerics can dual-class into Rangers. So…
Priest of Lathander/Archer
The limitation of Cleric proficiencies kind of kills this entirely. Sort of good if you want to boost that Sling, but you’re really better off with the other kits.
Priest of Lathander/Stalker
Sneaky, sort of. Backstab doesn’t work with blunt weapons, so that’s kind of a waste.
Priest of Lathander/Beast Master
You know how Borderlands has a Bazillion guns? These dudes have a bazillion summons. Awesome if you’re into that kind of thing.
CREDITS
Play it Hardcore, for being a pretty great quick-reference for a lot of stuff.
Baldur’s Gate II, for tolerating my constant character generation, exp boosting, and CTRL+Y/CTRL+K shenanigans to get rid of the trash characters when I was done.
Shadowkeeper, for allowing me to test these crazy abominations.
Beamdog, for putting forth the effort to make Baldur’s Gate: Enhanced Edition happen, and for being so awesome in working with the community while doing so.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
I’m a huge jerk that likes to play videogames and has a particular fondness for DnD after my Dad DM’d for me a couple games in my younger years. I currently work as a Balance/Concept/Design consultant for the Night of the Dead, one of the most popular mods on Starcraft II. I’m doubtful that anyone will care about this section, but sometimes job offers come from the most unexpected places, so it’s worth a shot. Hope you enjoyed the read.
Let the discussion begin!
Post edited by Kithrixx on
5
Comments
Not. But I'm not going to fight over it anymore. Fight is good when there is slighest chance to win.
Besides, the entire point of this was to show that Single or Dual Kit Multiclass characters actually wouldn't be that overpowered. They rarely performed significantly better on the whole than vanilla multiclass characters and, in some cases, single-class characters. The only exceptions are the Kensai/Assassin, who is the epitome of the Cripplingly Overspecialized Glass Cannon, and the Fighter/Mage combos mixing and matching the different class effects of Tenser's Transformation. Beyond those two, I wouldn't say there were any "game breakers" at all.
Although I obviously wish they were hard fact, because then they would be in the game without the need to mod at all.
So at this point, what has a F/M to recommend it over a F->M? Both of its halves will be weaker, and by TOB the former will probably be 2-3 spell levels behind the latter (slinging level 6 or 7 while the F->M's at level 9).
With MC getting proficiencies, then the trade-off is the Mage half would still be less powerful than a F->M, but the Fighter half would be more powerful. DCs would still have the edge, and by a non-trivial margin, too, given how quickly Fighter levels stop being significant compared to other classes, but MC would be a bit more competitive.
As for kits, I completely agree. Why people are so troubled by the possibility of an Assassin/Fighter (which, lest we forget, IS ALREADY AVAILABLE to dualclass) is beyond me when far more powerful classes already exist. Such as Kensai->Mages, or, I dunno, maybe the Sorceror?
The DC character must stop progression in the first class to start the second class. Thus, his power in the first class only goes so high. It's kind of a built-in cap. An MC character can progress infinitely in both classes and does not have this disadvantage. And for 90% of the game of BG1 and a good chunk of BG2, the MC character is almost the same level as his counterparts. So an MC character gets two kits to the single-class and dual-class characters one. And he's only a level or two lower.
Further, the DC character must then XP up in a new class, starting at level 1. The MC character freely combines both abilities from character creation till death. In the case of the DC character, the more powerful his original class, the more levels he must earn to gain that power. During that time he doesn't get to enjoy his previous abilities. It's a built-in control which the MC character does not have. A 13 Kensai/14 Thief sounds ridiculous in practice, but would take you all of BG1 and BG2 to do this, unless you power-level.
That said, giving MC two kits makes DC almost pointless. DC is meant to be a big advantage of being human. MC characters would be completely superior in this regard, because they also get major benefits. Further, because they can be accessed by other races - such as half-orcs - they are likely to be much powerful even at level 1.
Nevertheless, you give an excellent discussion of how kits interact. Most, you're right, are not hugely overpowered. But enough are to ruin it for most of the bunch, I think.
summarising: i disagree for RP/flavour reasons and because kensai/assasing kills in a single round everything not immunue to backstabs while it's not inferior to a kensai but rather superior as a Kensai's thaco is higher than what you need anyway,the loss of +hit+damage bonus is insignificant and late game you will wear armor and have acces to spike trap. it's too much.
Also, in terms of RP/Flavor, it's really not that difficult to study two things at once. Multiclassing exists, does it not? I don't think it's unreasonable to allow whatever classes you have to be able to work towards certain specializations. Also^2, nowhwere does it say that the Kensai limits himself to only fighting. They are simply trained to be harmonious in their fighting and to do so without encumbrance. Coupling that with the element of surprise and efficiency from the Assassin and... you don't have a conflict.
Also, backstabbing mage kits is rediculously easy with spells like Mislead, Imp Invis and the myriad of defensive spells to get you out safely after you've gotten in.
Also I wasn't aware that you could stab people with a staff! I appreciate you pointing that out. Are there any other weapons that aren't sharp that you can backstab with?
Also, after a backstab, you can whip up Sanctuary, run out of range and try again.
To address each point you made:
-Sorry if I was unclear. I was indeed referring to your statement that MC characters with kits is no more game-breaking than what's going on already. You brought up two DC builds in the same paragraph - kensai/mages and kensai/thieves - as a comparison.
-I don't think people abuse the DC feature. DCing is supposed to be one of the big advantages that humans have, as you said. To use it well is to use it properly, not abuse it. As for foreknowledge being OP, almost everyone playing BG:EE will have played BG before. This forum is therefore OP.
-MC characters do not cap much earlier than SC or DC characters, as you suggest. In BG1, MC characters only cap one level lower than their MC counterparts. A fighter/thief (or kensai/swashbuckler) finishes BG at level 7/8. A pure kensai finishes at level 8. Though the discrepancy in fighter levels becomes greater mid-BG2, that's about 20+ hours of gameplay in.
-You referred to an MC character as a "cheap tank " and a DC character "as an expensive tank." This is an understatement. The DC character must work very hard to even be equal with the MC and that time is not trivial (many hours). Why does the MC get that versatility right away at no cost?
-An MC character with a kit would indeed devalue an SC character. Take the case of the Kensai/Swashbuckler vs. the Kensai (or better yet, the Swashbuckler).
Throughout most of the game, the kensai and kensai/swashbuckler are almost indistinguishable in melee. The kensai has only a slight edge, because as I stated, the MC character is only one level behind and incorporating combat buffs from two classes. But while the kensai enjoys a slight edge in combat, the kensai-swashbuckler has a host of other advantages the kensai does not: thief abilities, increased in-game options, and better gear access in the long run. Finally, if you compare the Kensai/Swashbuckler to the Swashbuckler, the Kensai/Swashbuckler is a superior fighter with comparable AC, and is only a slightly worse thief. So the MC character is only slightly worse at the main specialty, but much more useful overall, as he has a million other talents to rely on. Considering only battle prowess when balancing these kits probably isn't the best approach. So while the simulations are brilliant, they are only part of the picture. The real imbalance is fully evident when you consider all aspects of the game.
What will happen - if MC kits happen - is that everyone will multi-class to kensai or swashbuckler. There is no MC option which compares to these.
Although MCs with a mage kit would benefit the most, other combinations would also be a lot better than their vanilla configurations. The thing that is bugging me the most is that dualclassing that does not have spellcasting involved would become totally useless, especially with the huge effort one would have to put in (even more so if you wish to receive HLA with your first class before dualclassing).
Edit: Just imagine the Kensai/Wild Mage/Assassin, or the Berserker/Wild Mage/Priest of Lathander.