[BUG/ INCONSISTENCY with BG1] Killing Blue Circles gets full XP in ToB engine
Bhryaen
Member Posts: 2,874
OBSERVED:
Whenever I've played Tutu/ BGT I was able to ignore the vanilla BG rule that would reduce XP rewards to 1/10th for killing non-hostiles. This rule does seem a bit heavy-handed, but in effect it means you can't deal with encounters heavy-handedly either by just walking up to, say, Silke and slaughtering her with a single major backstab for no reason (other than metagaming) to get the full XP. There ought to be a reason for a kill to translate into full experience. This extends also to NPCs like Shank in Candlekeep who has to come up and tell you he's about to kill you for you to get the full XP for killing him.
EXPECTED:
The vanilla BG1 1/10th XP rule for killing Blue Circle NPCs.
Whenever I've played Tutu/ BGT I was able to ignore the vanilla BG rule that would reduce XP rewards to 1/10th for killing non-hostiles. This rule does seem a bit heavy-handed, but in effect it means you can't deal with encounters heavy-handedly either by just walking up to, say, Silke and slaughtering her with a single major backstab for no reason (other than metagaming) to get the full XP. There ought to be a reason for a kill to translate into full experience. This extends also to NPCs like Shank in Candlekeep who has to come up and tell you he's about to kill you for you to get the full XP for killing him.
EXPECTED:
The vanilla BG1 1/10th XP rule for killing Blue Circle NPCs.
Post edited by Balquo on
4
Comments
When you attack Drizzt, he becomes a red circle. Just saying...
Not if you kill them with one nice backstab... or before they switch. At present there are plenty of blue circles who are actually enemies (Tarnesh, for ex) who will remain blue despite all the arrows you pump into them, so long as they never get to initiate their dialog. Lots of exploits like that to be had- but in BG1 you get 1/10 XP for it...
You can still be sneaky and position your rogue in stealth in the appropriate place - at least give them the chance to turn hostile though before you backstab them in half.
As Humanoid_Taifun mentioned, certain enemies are people you might know you want dead. An absolutely excellent example would be the leaders of the bandit squads that roam Pevdale and that the wood of sharp teeth before the bandit camp. I mean, you see a Black Talon dressed guy peaceably sitting amongst lots of bandits in a leaderly fashion, you should be rewarded for slipping your favorite thief into the midst the take out the boss while you follow with a Sleep or Horror spell; not penalized.
Likewise, if people don't want to metagame, then that is there prerogative. Other people enjoy some of the nuances and fun things you can get away with while playing the game, or enjoy knowing about little secrets stashed all over the place. Stuff like Biff the Understudy, the location of the Wand of Frost, Ring of Wizardry, Ankheg Plate, Ring of Protection +1, Diamond, Cloudkill scroll, and so forth are things that would all qualify as some hardcore metagaming, but I'd rather they didn't remove such things (for those who are unaware, all of these items are hidden in tiny, tiny locations, usually in the ground or in trees scattered throughout the game; and you can acquire a diamond and a ring of protection +1 on your way to the Friendly Arm Inn without diverting your course or heading off in search of solo-adventure).
The exceptions aren't the rule. Most of the blue circles are only known enemies only because you know the game. What's more pertinent are the blue circles who aren't enemies except that you're killing them. So you're getting the full XP for slaughtering townfolk or whatever other NPCs.
But so long as there is redress of the exploit of blue-circle enemies who won't turn red because they're forced to try initiating dialog, I'll be happy...
You look familiar... ;-)
Think of the 1/10 as BG house rules.
As for the not initiating conversation and whacking them bug, that is a doozy.
-Trent
There are a number of behaviors regarding creatures more intent on delivering dialog than on survival:
- Blue-circle enemies which never turn hostile. (Tarnesh)
- Blue-circle enemies that do turn hostile but don't attack. (possibly Teven)
- Blue-circle enemies that do turn hostile and do attack, but now forget they're a mage or cleric or archer and attack with melee.
- Blue-circle allies which never turn hostile. (Gatewarden)
- Blue-circle allied that do turn hostile but don't attack.
- Blue-circle allies that do turn hostile and do attack, but now forget they're a mage or cleric or archer and attack with melee.
I've experimented with the related scripts with some success but it would require a comprehensive list of all affected NPCs, the consideration of each NPCs specific script needs, and, well, implementation... heh
As for the exploits bit, killing innocents left and right etcetera:
Can't we just assume for a moment that the people playing this game are people who want to enjoy it, as well? Either they are roleplayers, in which case they will refrain from attacking innocent people, unless they have good (roleplaying) reason to.
The power- and metagamers may attack them, but why penalize them for it?
And XP does not work in any real sense or fashion. Slaughtering dozens of monsters with your sword and using that knowledge to learn new spells is about as logical as being forbidden from using swords because you are currently learning about magic (despite the fact that you're all out of spells).
It's not about logic. It's about balance and roleplaying. As such, I would definitely reward the assassin the full XP for backstabbing the enemy before he had a chance to erect his defenses. What's the point of choosing the kit otherwise?
Well, it was Grond0 who got me to stop killing blue circles- even Carbos and Shank- during the No Reload games. :-P
As it is though, the original game all the way through TotSC used the 1/10th rule, and I'd say the game did pretty well. No complaints against the 1/10th rule have been mentioned over all these months of dev time. It was taken out for BG2 though, and I'd favor a rule that bridged both EE versions, but while I'd favor the 1/10th rule for both, others would disagree.
As to your Q, I don't see the rule as an attempt to penalize powergamers- or anyone else- but determine a way that XP occurs meaningfully. If powergamers feel personally put-off by that, well, it hasn't shown, and it applies to such a limited portion of the killing in the game, I'm not sure how it somehow slaps anyone down. Fighter/Thief has been my longstanding fav class and I powergamed solo runs repeatedly without resenting a single 1/10th application. In the cases like the bandits, the loss only happens once before they all go hostile, and with the HiS ability it hardly matters if you've got a corner nearby- even in the tightest places. Plus the chance of getting the really big backstab that actually makes the kill in blow doesn't always happen (much less actually hitting). In any case I don't think the point of the kit is killing blue circles. It's very effective against red ones as well...
Hide in Shadows
1. Shooting you with arrows/bolts/bullets.
2. Blasting you with spells, casting hold person on you, or otherwise removing you from the equation.
3. Chasing you down to melee you, making it difficult or even impossible to find a location to hide.
Unless you're packing invisibility, then you're probably not going to sneak attack someone more than once per combat (unless you have dedicated Stealth-er who can leave combat while the enemies are busy, then return to the combat, get into position, and backstab again; but at that point you didn't need a backstabber thief because a martial would have killed the damned enemy already :P).
But, no... backstab is very useful after the fight starts. The stab-and-hide method works wonders. Coran taught me that on my first game, never forgot it...
And really all this fuss is superfluous: it's the BG1/ TotSC game mechanic. *shrugs* No one's imposing anything. The original devs did that already... which is why people have forgotten all about BG and no decade-long BG enthusiasm ever happened or mod interest or... hmm...
To me, imposing the 1/10th experience penalty is a poor excuse to what the REAL PROBLEM is, and that's bad AI and/or scripting of NPCs. Just because it was something that existed or didn't exist in BG I does not necessarily mean that it should exist in the BG:EE. There were no kits in BG I, but most of us would like kits. You could switch armors in the middle of combat in BG I, but I for one think it's a little silly to be able to don and doff full plate mail in the middle of combat. You couldn't walk through your allies in BG I, but I hope to god no one is going to complain about better movement and Pathfinding. And so forth.
This 1/10th XP bit is pretty senseless, and definitely penalizes players who use strategy and guile as opposed to brute force. It doesn't really serve a purpose other than punishing players for abusing bad scripting to overcome certain encounters. My vote is either you fix the scripting (it can be done, because SCS already makes the game wonderfully more challenging and makes many of those scripted instances work in ways that don't make the NPCs look like fools) or you don't, but I'd rather see this 1/10th experience penalty go the way of the dodo and bring BG I and BG II together more uniformly.
But I suppose that if we're going to use "but it was in BG I" as the driving argument and not actually fixing real problems, then we should also restore the option to get naked and throw on full-plate in an instant, prevent you from pausing the game and looking through your inventory, remove class kits, remove half-orcs, remove the new blackguard kit, and so forth. I'm sure most of us would be disinterested in these "fixes", as opposed to having improvements such as improved AI who don't act stupid based on dialog scripts, fewer bugs, more options for existing classes, better pathfinding, and so forth.
For example, one guide I read concerning BG I suggests not using Tutu because he felt that it was a better deal for Fighter/Mages in BG I to be able to switch armors in combat. If we want to restore the nice aspects of BG I for Fighter/Mages, it would be better to add options such as more light armors that you can cast spells in (such as non-magical elven chain which provides a moderate AC bonus while allowing casting), rather than allowing them to don and doff full-plate instantly. Instead of pulling back the archaic XP penalty for jumping blue-circled enemies (which by the way, includes initiating combat with bears before they turn hostile), fix the problem with the AI.
Also, I'm not saying that strike-vanishing is useless in BG I & II. Just that if you can rely on that in major combats, then you've got a party capable of keeping enemies busy while your rogue finds a place to Stealth in the middle of it all. In the time that it takes for your rogue to do that, a Fighter will likely have just outright killed the enemy anyway. Even at x5 backstab, a rogue dealing 1d8+5 deals 47 damage if his attack hits, then he has to run away and come back to do it again, and you have to deal with your lower THAC0. Meanwhile, your Fighter could have easily hit your opponent 3-5 times for more damage without the song and dance routine (the fighter will be swinging for way more damage per hit, and hitting more often). There's also the fact that you can't backstab with ranged weapons, which means that the Fighter may have your enemy dead before they get to you.