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The STR requirement on Composite Longbows

RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
...is insane. Isn't 18 supposed to be super heroic strength?
Seriously, who the hell would be able to use it in the entire Realms besides amazingly gifted humans/elves/dwarves, the ocasional half-orc or monstrous humanoids like ogres and others who would rather crush things to goo with melee weapons.
Sounds like making those would be a bad business, considering pretty much nobody would be able to achieve the hilarious power to manhandle the string.
Aristillius

Comments

  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    Good point. As I have understood, using a longbow did require massive strength, but I dont think it was the equivalent of 18? As far as I know, english longbowmen did have a diproportionate strength in the muscles required to draw the string back, maybe composite longbow should have a stregth requirement of 15-16, but be simply unusable by characters with no proficiency points in longbow to represent that? (Probably hard to implement, but interesting thought experiment none the less).
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    It is supposed to simulate gaining your strength when firing your bow (which is what makes composite bows better than regular bows). It's sloppy implementation really.
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    It's possible to mod bows that allow STR damage, but for balancing reasons I assume the +2 damage is a comprimise. 18 STR requirement does seem pretty extreme.
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806
    edited December 2013
    No, it's about right. When archeologists dig up Medieval graves, they can tell the bowmen because thier arm bones Are thicker and sturdier. Not the arm muscles, the actual bones. The bowmen had to be trained from the age of 8 or 9 in order to be able to fire the bow. Remember, you don't just have to be able pull the string back, you have to be able to aim. The draw weight of these bows was up to 185 pounds. That's a lot to be able to hold steady enough to aim.
    CrevsDaak[Deleted User]
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Well... Pretty much the only ones who can use Longbows are the warrior classes... Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians... It usually makes sense for them to have that 18 strength... Except maybe the Archer kit...
    Sylvus_MoonbowCrevsDaak
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Aren't their some goblins somewhere that can use them? xD
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    I think every goblin archer in Irenicus' dungeon has a composite longbow...
    CrevsDaak
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    No, it's shortbows. You can find a composite longbow in the cage room from the remains of shadow thief that got hit by the spell barrage in the opening cinematic.
  • FaydarkFaydark Member Posts: 279
    18 does seem a bit extreme. The way I've always understood the D&D stat system is that the 8 - 12 range is supposed to be a representation of the "general human population". A farmer who does heavy physical labour every day might hit 12/13 str, while a clerk who works indoors all day might be more like 8.

    In real life, I would put my own STR stat at 8 - 10 range, but I can certainly use a longbow competently (and have done). Composite Longbow, I'm not sure about.. but fairly certain you don't have to look like Arnie in his Conan days to use it.

    RedWizard[Deleted User]
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    RedWizard said:

    ...is insane. Isn't 18 supposed to be super heroic strength?
    Seriously, who the hell would be able to use it in the entire Realms besides amazingly gifted humans/elves/dwarves, the ocasional half-orc or monstrous humanoids like ogres and others who would rather crush things to goo with melee weapons.
    Sounds like making those would be a bad business, considering pretty much nobody would be able to achieve the hilarious power to manhandle the string.

    No, % strength values are supposed to be superhuman.

    Some bows do require huge strength to draw. Odesius proved his identity because he was the only person strong enough to draw his bow. English/welsh longbowmen had one shoulder bigger than the other from training to draw their bow from a very young age. Evidence from the Mary Rose suggests they may have been well over average height.
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    edited December 2013
    According to the wiki composite bow page, the difference between a normal and composite bow is the construction involved. Basically it states using more materials in a composite results in more power as opposed to a bow made of a single material in certain circumstances, the disadvantage being more lengthy construction and being more fragile.

    It makes no mention of requiring more strength to draw them. So it seems to me that the higher STR requirement is yet more silliness in the 2nd Ed system.


    In third Ed, composites simply have the "mighty" property, allowing str bonus while not actually requiring more strength. So two archers, one normal strength and another being Conan, can both fire the bow, but Conans arrow will have more power in the shot (hence the bonus damage). A much better implementation according to their real world counterparts.

    However, for all of the wacky nonsensical rules in 2nd edition, I still love it.
    Post edited by ReadingRambo on
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Mthinks you should have a base of 17 STR to use them.
    Or fix the exceptional STR roll for halfling fighters so they can have 18 instead of 17 maxium, like in PnP, where they do not get to roll for Exceptional STR, but they can have 18 STR.
  • FredjoFredjo Member Posts: 477
    edited December 2013

    I am not 100% sure about this... but as far as I am aware, composite bows existed historically, and so did long bows. But never has there been composite long bows, at least in mass production.

    The English/Welsh Longbow is made from a single piece of yew wood, which is idea for bow construction because the "heartwood resists compression while the sapwood resists stretching", which allows the bows to produce an enormous amount of power to fire with an effective range of about 300 yards. Yew wood kind of naturally achieves the same thing as Eastern Composite bows, which use different materials to achieve the same desired properties, and Mongol bows are also known to be effective up to around 300 yards, and capable of penetrating chain-mail armour, like the English longbow. English Bodkin arrow tips further enhanced the armour penetration of longbows, to the extent that it can even defeat plate mail at close range.

    The advantage of composite bows was that it produced a similar amount of power, but was small enough to be used from horseback.

    I'd imagine that if a composite long bow was actually produced, it probably would require an extraordinary amount upper body strength to use.


    I agree wholeheartedly :D

    Composite bows were invented by nomadic tribes, most probably by mongolic, turkic tribes north of China for the sole purpose of horse archery. A long composite bow is a nonsense.

    The average pull of composite bows was usually around 70lbs some were even around 50lbs, the English longbows had a pull around 100lbs and more.

    The composite bows are hi-tech with low pull strength and lots of power in a small package. The drawback is less durability due to organic material used, especially the collagen glue and sinews.
    [Deleted User]
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    CrevsDaak said:

    Mthinks you should have a base of 17 STR to use them.
    Or fix the exceptional STR roll for halfling fighters so they can have 18 instead of 17 maxium, like in PnP, where they do not get to roll for Exceptional STR, but they can have 18 STR.

    I guess I'd have to disagree with this one. Dwarves, Gnomes and Halflings are not tall enough to actually employ a long bow, so the exclusion of Halflings looks like 'right answer by accident'. It's not something I think a lot about, as I don't play those races, but I definitely like the weapon size ideas of 3rd edition as it applies to this.
    [Deleted User]
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    edited December 2013
    Interesting! I remember hearing that composite bows were invented because they didn't have good wood for bows, and were developed independently in a couple of places for this reason. I didn't know they were short bows though. So in theory a strong halfling should be using a composite bow instead of a long bow because of his size.
  • nanonano Member Posts: 1,632
    The Inuit had them as well! I guess it's a natural development... you want a stronger bow, but you don't want a 6 ft monstrosity and you also don't have the wood to make a really good one, just bits of animals.

    I imagine an adventurer bringing a longbow into the dungeon is kind of like a soldier trying to using a huge sniper rifle indoors.

    I always wondered what an archer would make of a modern compound bow...
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 367
    edited December 2013
    The relation of bows to strength is less to do with being able to pull the string and more to do with holding it while aiming. Its the reason the compound bow had become so popular since it's invention in the mid-20th century.

    Modern compound bows use a system of pulleys that start with the same draw strength, but allow the user to hold at the ready much more easily, which in turn makes aiming and moving while drawn much easier. Classic composite bows require greater strength to keep drawn, making it more difficult to perform those activities.

    Basically, the high strength requirement isn't to pull the string, it's to keep the string drawn while you do everything else.
    nano
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The yew longbow could be considered a "composite" bow from an engineering standpoint, since it is cut in such a way as to utilise the different mechanical properties of the sapwood and heartwood.
    nanojackjackThe_New_Romance
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