- If a new class is added, that obviously surpasses other classes (=op, i.e. blackguard ;-) ), that class should be nerfed.
But why? This is a singleplayer game, there is no PvP multiplayer, so as far as I am concerned, there is no need to insist upon class balance, or NPC balance. Incidentally I've never played evil so I've never used Dorn or Edwin. So I am not just defending my favourite classes/characters.
In my opinion it is right that some classes are more powerful than others in battle. By lore a Sorcerer or Blackguard should be more powerful than a bard or thief.
@Heindrich Don't get me wrong. I am all for variability between classes and I am by no means suggesting that Sorceror should be as powerful as bard combatwise.
I was only try to suggest that nerfing sometimes should happen. If certain class is way too powerful, like the Blackguards is it would actualy improve the fun by nerfing imho.
The key is to compare with close classes. For example compare the blackguard to paladin and his other kits.
I used to be in the dual camp until my fighter illusionist run made me realize how ridiculous it was to have a fighter Mage with hardiness and critical strikes which I think combine to be much better than anything kensai Mage offers, and since I hit 8.7 million exp with a 6 man party, it really was just better overall.
When depicting class power we must focus on the enitre saga, not just final parts of ToB. Let's make a little comparsion example 1: kensai/mage powergaming dualclass lvl 13: You spent entire BG1 and half of soa as kensai(1 250 000xp!) who simply isn't much fun to play for me especialy in BG 1. Than you spend an awful lot of time as subpar mage(1 500 000xp!). After that you shine in meele for awhile, but in TOB you will realize that the kensai part is becoming more and more obsolete an you are relying on your pure mage skills instead. I personaly hated this run and didn't even finish it.
example 2: fighter/mage elf: Seems like a good idea. 19 dex, +1 Thac0 on bows and longswords and there are no "fighter only" nor "mage only" periods. However on the second look things aren't so great. You loose grandmastery, you loose kit of your choice, you loose significant portion of hp. But most importantly you will yourself struggling doing your roles properly, especialy when compared to NPCS. You need to give yourself multiple buffs if you wanna go meele and even than you'll do slightly worse than pure class warrior. And you won't have that much spells. Your party members will usually outperform you, until the TOB when you'll trully reach your potential - and thats because single class slow in development actualy. I actualy liked this run, but I've felt that it lacks a lot.
example 3: fighter/mage dualclass on lvl 7: Probably the most powerfull class I've ever played, except maybe sorcerer. I've focused on bows/ single weapon fighting style. Bow's are deadly in BG1 so unlike kensai you are pretty powerful. You also ironicaly have significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery. And if you add the tome you will keep comparable THAC0 for most of the SoA. I switched to mage in about half of BG 1 and caught up in Irenicus dungeon (though it is completely doable withing BG1 limits). Shooting between casting spells is pretty powerful - try to follow breach by couple of arrows of biting. It keeps useful even when you start to Timestop. This was probably the most funny run I've ever did.
I'm not disregarding it, I read it and said it was nice..? What's the point of criticizing your subjective opinion, though? That doesn't make any sense, and only leads to flame wars.
I'm not disregarding it, I read it and said it was nice..? What's the point of criticizing your subjective opinion, though? That doesn't make any sense, and only leads to flame wars.
When civilized people discuss their opinions (admitably rare ocassion on the internet), it broadens their horizonts. Constuctive criticism of my summary might point my mistakes i am unaware of and I might even learn something new about the game.
When depicting class power we must focus on the enitre saga, not just final parts of ToB. Let's make a little comparsion example 1: kensai/mage powergaming dualclass lvl 13: You spent entire BG1 and half of soa as kensai(1 250 000xp!) who simply isn't much fun to play for me especialy in BG 1. Than you spend an awful lot of time as subpar mage(1 500 000xp!). After that you shine in meele for awhile, but in TOB you will realize that the kensai part is becoming more and more obsolete an you are relying on your pure mage skills instead. I personaly hated this run and didn't even finish it.
example 2: fighter/mage elf: Seems like a good idea. 19 dex, +1 Thac0 on bows and longswords and there are no "fighter only" nor "mage only" periods. However on the second look things aren't so great. You loose grandmastery, you loose kit of your choice, you loose significant portion of hp. But most importantly you will yourself struggling doing your roles properly, especialy when compared to NPCS. You need to give yourself multiple buffs if you wanna go meele and even than you'll do slightly worse than pure class warrior. And you won't have that much spells. Your party members will usually outperform you, until the TOB when you'll trully reach your potential - and thats because single class slow in development actualy. I actualy liked this run, but I've felt that it lacks a lot.
example 3: fighter/mage dualclass on lvl 7: Probably the most powerfull class I've ever played, except maybe sorcerer. I've focused on bows/ single weapon fighting style. Bow's are deadly in BG1 so unlike kensai you are pretty powerful. You also ironicaly have significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery. And if you add the tome you will keep comparable THAC0 for most of the SoA. I switched to mage in about half of BG 1 and caught up in Irenicus dungeon (though it is completely doable withing BG1 limits). Shooting between casting spells is pretty powerful - try to follow breach by couple of arrows of biting. It keeps useful even when you start to Timestop. This was probably the most funny run I've ever did.
now this is some stuff go educate yourself you shouldn't have opened this thread when people have written authoritatively on this topic before many times and on this very forum
"...significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery."
+2 thac0 is not significantly higher. have you ever heard of fighter thac0 progression? (edit: hint - dualclassing freezes it; if you do so at lvl7 there'll be nothing *significantly higher* about your thac0) dude...just don't.
It is really non-nonsensical that multi-class fighters can't get 5 pips and dual class (human) can. In fact, it is borderline racist!
No actually it makes perfect sense. A dual-class character focuses solely on one discipline (fighting) before mastering it to his hearts content and then switches to a new discipline. He thereby stops learning as a fighter but focuses only on his new discipline allowing him to reach whatever pinnacle of that discipline he desires.
As a multi-class, you are constantly learning 2 or 3 disciplines at once, never taking the time to focus solely on one in order to reach grandmastery. You'll never be a grandmaster swordsman if you are too busy studying scrolls and arcana!
When depicting class power we must focus on the enitre saga, not just final parts of ToB. Let's make a little comparsion example 1: kensai/mage powergaming dualclass lvl 13: You spent entire BG1 and half of soa as kensai(1 250 000xp!) who simply isn't much fun to play for me especialy in BG 1. Than you spend an awful lot of time as subpar mage(1 500 000xp!). After that you shine in meele for awhile, but in TOB you will realize that the kensai part is becoming more and more obsolete an you are relying on your pure mage skills instead. I personaly hated this run and didn't even finish it.
example 2: fighter/mage elf: Seems like a good idea. 19 dex, +1 Thac0 on bows and longswords and there are no "fighter only" nor "mage only" periods. However on the second look things aren't so great. You loose grandmastery, you loose kit of your choice, you loose significant portion of hp. But most importantly you will yourself struggling doing your roles properly, especialy when compared to NPCS. You need to give yourself multiple buffs if you wanna go meele and even than you'll do slightly worse than pure class warrior. And you won't have that much spells. Your party members will usually outperform you, until the TOB when you'll trully reach your potential - and thats because single class slow in development actualy. I actualy liked this run, but I've felt that it lacks a lot.
example 3: fighter/mage dualclass on lvl 7: Probably the most powerfull class I've ever played, except maybe sorcerer. I've focused on bows/ single weapon fighting style. Bow's are deadly in BG1 so unlike kensai you are pretty powerful. You also ironicaly have significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery. And if you add the tome you will keep comparable THAC0 for most of the SoA. I switched to mage in about half of BG 1 and caught up in Irenicus dungeon (though it is completely doable withing BG1 limits). Shooting between casting spells is pretty powerful - try to follow breach by couple of arrows of biting. It keeps useful even when you start to Timestop. This was probably the most funny run I've ever did.
now this is some stuff go educate yourself you shouldn't have opened this thread when people have written authoritatively on this topic before many times and on this very forum
"...significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery."
+2 thac0 is not significantly higher. have you ever heard of fighter thac0 progression? (edit: hint - dualclassing freezes it; if you do so at lvl7 there'll be nothing *significantly higher* about your thac0) dude...just don't.
There's really no need to be so hostile... It's a discussion between people who share a passion. Chewing the cud together is a perfectly valid use of this forum.
Whether you are being hostile or not is a matter of debate, but regardless, you are being rather disrespectful. If you don't like this topic, or have nothing constructive to contribute, you can always ignore it.
I may disagree quite strongly with OP's views, but he is free to express them, that's kinda the point of a forum. There are new players and forum users who haven't participated in this particular discussion before.
I still don't think the difference between DC and MC is so huge that it warrants a rebalancing. If we stick with the K=>M vs F/M example. Yes the K=>M is arguably stronger over the course of a full saga in a 6 man party (actually that's debate-able cos the first 1/3 of the game in BG 1 and early SoA, he's just a fighter who can't use missile weapons and can't tank.)
But if you played with smaller parties, then thanks to much faster level progression, F/M is easily stronger overall. I think you underestimate the value of tactical flexibility when it comes to weapon proficiencies. Imagine a new player playing blind, he's never gonna know where to find the best weapons to plan proficiencies in advance, so he probably won't go for GM specialisation even if he could.
@bob_veng There are new players and forum users who haven't participated in this particular discussion before.
Valid point. That's why as a moderator, your function is to point them to relevant threads which already contain fully formed discussions and useful information. They will of course be free to post their questions, thoughts and attitudes there. When toxic topic repetition like this occurs, useful information only gets dilluted and new people will just get less good stuff and more of the "same old same old" from this community.
Also, clearly dysfunctional polls should be salvaged or removed by mods.
But this isn't a Dev-Q&A site… its a forum… an open discussion. The poll is flawed, but to be fair, the OP acknowledged early on that he forgot the "maintain status quo" option. However, that doesn't mean it can't be a jump-off point for a debate. Flaming someone with a "this is the truth, now shut up" statement achieves nothing… It is just plain antagonism.
If you don't like a particular thread, there are plenty of others… the main page of General Discussion alone has over 50.
@Ariziel Okay, I can understand discussing opinions but I don't see how you can criticize a *subjective opinion*. If you want to hear my opinions on the points you raised, here:
Example 1: I think you're overestimating the ACs of late game enemies. A kensai 13->mage should have no trouble hitting enemies in melee all the way to the end of ToB. Base THAC0 8, +4 bonus from kensai, +4 weapon is already at THAC0 0. Add STR and other bonuses and you're well into the negatives.
Example 2: I think you should run the numbers on this one, you'll be surprised. It isn't nearly as bad as you're saying.
Example 3: I can't believe you dismissed the above builds in favor of a low level dual. You complained the kensai's THAC0 is insufficient, but you think this is better?? Also, the THAC0 of this build is not better than a multiclass, except maybe at certain levels. Not overall, that's for sure.
@bob_veng There are new players and forum users who haven't participated in this particular discussion before.
Valid point. That's why as a moderator, your function is to point them to relevant threads which already contain fully formed discussions and useful information. They will of course be free to post their questions, thoughts and attitudes there. When toxic topic repetition like this occurs, useful information only gets dilluted and new people will just get less good stuff and more of the "same old same old" from this community.
Also, clearly dysfunctional polls should be salvaged or removed by mods.
...ok ok i'm outta here
I am seriously thankful that you are not a moderator on this site. You sound like a Nazi, and all your policies would do is reduce traffic and participation. Nobody likes to read through a 10-page 160 comment 4 year old thread. Thank GOD you are nothing more than an annoying voice on a forum that we can all happily ignore
@Arizael I understand what you're saying with your exemple 1 and 3.
But if you think, in your exemple 2, that the F/M is a worse warrior than a plain fighter, I think that you are doing something wrong.
Because of the synergy between classes, a Fighter/Mage or a Fighter => Mage is a better Fighter than a Fighter could ever hope to become, and the same statement is nearly always true aswell for the mage part.
Compare a 2 500 000 Xp F/M (Level 13/13) to a 8 000 000 XP Fighter (Level 40), in a melee fight, the F/M will win 10 times out of 10. With a combinaison of Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Improved Haste, PfMW, Tenser Transformation. He's gonna tear him apart in a few seconds while taking no damage back.
And that's what make multiclass or dualclass so powerful in 2E, the fact that each class enhance the others classes aswell. A F/M is far better at melee thanks to the Mage part, and is also better at magic than a pure mage thanks to the Fighter part because a pure mage is squishy, vulnerable to Power Words, And because a pure mage will need to focus on damage spells because he can't deal damage on his own. A F/M will have the opportunity to focus on utility spells, making him quite a better Mage.
The idea of dual class is that the character will no longer progress in the first class but continues to progress in the second - so it seems a bit contradictory to me that an ex-fighter dual can continue to get extra weapon pips when he theoretically can no longer progress as a fighter. Certainly, it's contradictory if a multi-class can't do the same IMO.
I also think the fact that multis level up more slowly (due to the fact that they always split their XPs between two classes) perfectly counterbalances the advantages that they get from being multis. I don't think they needed to be nerfed further by being restricted to specialization.
Comments
In my opinion it is right that some classes are more powerful than others in battle. By lore a Sorcerer or Blackguard should be more powerful than a bard or thief.
Don't get me wrong. I am all for variability between classes and I am by no means suggesting that Sorceror should be as powerful as bard combatwise.
I was only try to suggest that nerfing sometimes should happen. If certain class is way too powerful, like the Blackguards is it would actualy improve the fun by nerfing imho.
The key is to compare with close classes. For example compare the blackguard to paladin and his other kits.
example 1: kensai/mage powergaming dualclass lvl 13: You spent entire BG1 and half of soa as kensai(1 250 000xp!) who simply isn't much fun to play for me especialy in BG 1. Than you spend an awful lot of time as subpar mage(1 500 000xp!).
After that you shine in meele for awhile, but in TOB you will realize that the kensai part is becoming more and more obsolete an you are relying on your pure mage skills instead.
I personaly hated this run and didn't even finish it.
example 2: fighter/mage elf: Seems like a good idea. 19 dex, +1 Thac0 on bows and longswords and there are no "fighter only" nor "mage only" periods. However on the second look things aren't so great. You loose grandmastery, you loose kit of your choice, you loose significant portion of hp. But most importantly you will yourself struggling doing your roles properly, especialy when compared to NPCS.
You need to give yourself multiple buffs if you wanna go meele and even than you'll do slightly worse than pure class warrior. And you won't have that much spells. Your party members will usually outperform you, until the TOB when you'll trully reach your potential - and thats because single class slow in development actualy.
I actualy liked this run, but I've felt that it lacks a lot.
example 3: fighter/mage dualclass on lvl 7: Probably the most powerfull class I've ever played, except maybe sorcerer. I've focused on bows/ single weapon fighting style. Bow's are deadly in BG1 so unlike kensai you are pretty powerful. You also ironicaly have significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery. And if you add the tome you will keep comparable THAC0 for most of the SoA.
I switched to mage in about half of BG 1 and caught up in Irenicus dungeon (though it is completely doable withing BG1 limits). Shooting between casting spells is pretty powerful - try to follow breach by couple of arrows of biting. It keeps useful even when you start to Timestop.
This was probably the most funny run I've ever did.
go educate yourself
you shouldn't have opened this thread when people have written authoritatively on this topic before many times and on this very forum
"...significantly higher THAC0 than multiclass elf, thanks to grandmastery."
+2 thac0 is not significantly higher. have you ever heard of fighter thac0 progression? (edit: hint - dualclassing freezes it; if you do so at lvl7 there'll be nothing *significantly higher* about your thac0)
dude...just don't.
Chewing the cud together is a perfectly valid use of this forum.
just laying out the facts.
main of which is that this thread is a joke and the poll even more so.
Whether you are being hostile or not is a matter of debate, but regardless, you are being rather disrespectful. If you don't like this topic, or have nothing constructive to contribute, you can always ignore it.
I may disagree quite strongly with OP's views, but he is free to express them, that's kinda the point of a forum. There are new players and forum users who haven't participated in this particular discussion before.
@Arizael
I still don't think the difference between DC and MC is so huge that it warrants a rebalancing. If we stick with the K=>M vs F/M example. Yes the K=>M is arguably stronger over the course of a full saga in a 6 man party (actually that's debate-able cos the first 1/3 of the game in BG 1 and early SoA, he's just a fighter who can't use missile weapons and can't tank.)
But if you played with smaller parties, then thanks to much faster level progression, F/M is easily stronger overall. I think you underestimate the value of tactical flexibility when it comes to weapon proficiencies. Imagine a new player playing blind, he's never gonna know where to find the best weapons to plan proficiencies in advance, so he probably won't go for GM specialisation even if he could.
Also, clearly dysfunctional polls should be salvaged or removed by mods.
...ok ok i'm outta here
The poll is flawed, but to be fair, the OP acknowledged early on that he forgot the "maintain status quo" option. However, that doesn't mean it can't be a jump-off point for a debate. Flaming someone with a "this is the truth, now shut up" statement achieves nothing… It is just plain antagonism.
If you don't like a particular thread, there are plenty of others… the main page of General Discussion alone has over 50.
Done with this now.
Example 1: I think you're overestimating the ACs of late game enemies. A kensai 13->mage should have no trouble hitting enemies in melee all the way to the end of ToB. Base THAC0 8, +4 bonus from kensai, +4 weapon is already at THAC0 0. Add STR and other bonuses and you're well into the negatives.
Example 2: I think you should run the numbers on this one, you'll be surprised. It isn't nearly as bad as you're saying.
Example 3: I can't believe you dismissed the above builds in favor of a low level dual. You complained the kensai's THAC0 is insufficient, but you think this is better?? Also, the THAC0 of this build is not better than a multiclass, except maybe at certain levels. Not overall, that's for sure.
So I am standing corrected and I had to rethink my opinion. The status quo should be either maintained.
But if you think, in your exemple 2, that the F/M is a worse warrior than a plain fighter, I think that you are doing something wrong.
Because of the synergy between classes, a Fighter/Mage or a Fighter => Mage is a better Fighter than a Fighter could ever hope to become, and the same statement is nearly always true aswell for the mage part.
Compare a 2 500 000 Xp F/M (Level 13/13) to a 8 000 000 XP Fighter (Level 40), in a melee fight, the F/M will win 10 times out of 10. With a combinaison of Mirror Image, Stoneskin, Improved Haste, PfMW, Tenser Transformation. He's gonna tear him apart in a few seconds while taking no damage back.
And that's what make multiclass or dualclass so powerful in 2E, the fact that each class enhance the others classes aswell. A F/M is far better at melee thanks to the Mage part, and is also better at magic than a pure mage thanks to the Fighter part because a pure mage is squishy, vulnerable to Power Words, And because a pure mage will need to focus on damage spells because he can't deal damage on his own. A F/M will have the opportunity to focus on utility spells, making him quite a better Mage.