Afraid i'm not up on my D&D lore so can't make an informed choice. So I pick Tiax - because Tiax rules all.
Tiax isn't even a mage, kiddo.
My bad! thought he was in spellhold?
They also lock crazy and dangerous people up in Spellhold. Not just mages.
Just like I said. I also received a warning because of the "kiddo" comment. It drives me to inquire: did I sound offensive or provocative by making such statement?
Just to say, I added Ammon Jerro on here because apparently his skills rival (or are greater than) Elminsters according to lore
As far as Mystra goes, I mean Midnight, hence the Midnight/Mystra choice. Midnight has only been connected to the Weave for 10 years before the events of Baldur's Gate. Would that be enough to be more powerful than a mage like Elminster who has studied magic for hundreds of years?
@TethorilofLathander your question is an interesting one and I will try to give you my opinion. Midnight the mage was a low level mage and would clearly not have any chance to win in your poll. She had the luck to be in the right place at the right time and follow the events that unfolded before her. When she became Mystra, Midnight as a mage ceased to exist, because she immediately had access and notion of all the spells ever created, a kind of magic she had no notion of when she was a mere mortal.
Was the little time between the Avatar Crisis and the events depicted in BG enough for her to adjust to her new status? Imho you mistake in assuming years work the same way for deities as they do for humans. Whatever El (or anyone else, really) could have learned or discovered in 2000+ mortal years, a god or goddess could learn or understand in a fraction of that time. That and the fact that Mystra in the specific has 45 and 40 to Int and Wis, respectively. And the +95 to Knowledge (Arcana). I think that helps too...
When Midnight became the new goddess of Magic, she also became whole with the Weave, as demonstrated by the fact that arcane spells are unreliable when Mystra is either dead or incapacitated. There is also an interesting line in "Faiths and Pantheons" (page 50, under History/relations) where it is stated that, while Midnight/Mystra was in what we could probably define an "apprentiship" period, she "withheld the use of magic from deities and mortals alike". This is also reiterated in the description of the god, under the "Deny Weave" unique ability. Now, if she can deny the access of magic to gods, it is my humble opinion that she is the most poweful mage of the bunch.
One could also argue, but what about the Shadow Weave? You have a point, a user of the Shadow Weave would still get his chances against Mystra, since she has no control over the Shadow twin of the Weave. But I still believe that the SR 70 she's got is a pretty good defence against any kind of magic attack.
Edit: I just noted that @ELMINSTER HIMSELF voted for Mystra. No contest then...
Definitely NOT the necromancer PC I just made. For funzies I made the char in ToB then exported him to SoA. Didn't notice that with 12 con at level 16/2.5m XP he has just 27(!) hp. I thought Neera was wimpy, but damn that is some amazingly bad rolling.
wait, serious question: so if Mystra died and got replaced, where does that leave Elminster? Is he still as powerful? (he was bonking her at one point, right? In the first book?)
Definitely NOT the necromancer PC I just made. For funzies I made the char in ToB then exported him to SoA. Didn't notice that with 12 con at level 16/2.5m XP he has just 27(!) hp. I thought Neera was wimpy, but damn that is some amazingly bad rolling.
It's actually not that terrible for rolling. The average would be 29.5, so it's only a little below that.
1. Ioulaum. What he has forgotten, everyone else hasn't learned yet. Creator of the first flying Enclave, creator of Mythallars, was single handedly responsible for growth and prosperity of the Netheril Empire. He was ancient hero already when Karsus was born and his disappearance was the main reason Karsus got the green light to try the Avatar spell.
2. Srinshee. Elven High Mage of immense power, according to Greenwood more powerful than even Larloch.
3. Arthindol the Terraseer. One of my favourites. Member of the Creator race (Sarrukh) which raises his CR to stratosphere (not as high as Ioulaum, though), powerful arcanist who is more than 50 000 years old. He is the one who foresaw the fall of Netheril if I'm not mistaken. And if Ioulaum was responsible for Netheril's prosperity, Arthindol was de facto the architect of beginnings of magic in the empire.
As to the poll — Midnight/Mystra? Seriously? Midnight couldn't cast higher level spells on her own and Mystra is a goddess of magic. It is beyond obvious she would be above everyone else on the list since she could deny access to the Weave to everyone. So I'm assuming it's a joke
Ioulaum is cool, but damn... Karsus was the most talented spellcaster EVER. He created Karsus's Avatar: a spell that could steal the power of whatever DEITY and transfer it to the caster... Did any other mortal accomplished that? Ah yes, he also was a level 41 mage. The only mistake he did was choosing the wrong target with that spell...
Ioulaum is cool, but damn... Karsus was the most talented spellcaster EVER. He created Karsus's Avatar: a spell that could steal the power of whatever DEITY and transfer it to the caster... Did any other mortal accomplished that? Ah yes, he also was a level 41 mage. The only mistake he did was choosing the wrong target with that spell...
Raw talent isn't everything. Ioulaum, per 2nd edition was also 41st level arcanist and I'd venture a guess that he could also create such a spell. He was the wiser one though, because everyone knows how casting this "super" spell ended. I guess that is the difference between ~3k years of experience versus ~300 years (that's the difference between Ioulaum and Karsus).
Then there is the fact that Ioulaum and Karsus were fighting each other for sport (their enclaves) and Karsus was losing this fight without Ioulaum even being at home. If I'm not mistaken he was also contemplating using time magic to win this contest and defeat Ioulaum before he learned to cast spells — which proves he was even stupider since the resulting paradox that could happen didn't even cross his mind.
The comparison between those two is very similar to Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan from Revenge of the Sith — one of them might have even better potential (I'd agree that if Karsus was a bit wiser and lived up to his 3k years, he could be Ioulaums equall or even surpass him) but in the end, we all know how Anakin ended and we all know how Karsus ended
Honestly, mages are by far one of the coolest characters in the forgotten realms infinity engine games. They really are the one class that really requires COMPLETE and total strategy to play with a party and solo definitely. I tried to solo a mage character in baldurs gate but it was tough. I had to restart. Ill try later with a party.
1-I read somewhere that specialist mages get a bonus to saves enemies must reach? Is this true?
2-Other than that, the only thing a specialist gets is 1 extra spell per spell level. Isnt it always better to be a vanilla mage?
I'll try to solo later on. Anyone done that with a specialist spellcaster. An abjurer probably is hard.
wait, serious question: so if Mystra died and got replaced, where does that leave Elminster? Is he still as powerful? (he was bonking her at one point, right? In the first book?)
I like this thread. It feels like I'm discussing FR history and lore with my brother.
@booinyoureyes from the wiki, speaking about the SpellPlague years: "Following the death of Mystra [...] Elminster was stripped of many of his abilities as one of the Chosen, though [...] is still quite powerful magically. However, every use of his magic drives him to [...] insanity".
This is not specific to Elminster, because the same effect is true for the Simbul (which, safe for a short period, is completely crazy in the events depicted in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy. The whole idea of magic-driving-you-nuts is common throughout the Realms at a certain point after the SpellPlague hit, because it was also reported that a number of mages were either killed or driven permanently insane (Catti-brie one of them) by the use of magic. El in particular could cast only minor spells without loosing his sanity and for anything particularly intense, he had to rely on Storm for bringing him back to reality.
So to answer your question, is he still as powerful? Despite what I reported above is true, he is clearly not as powerful as he was in let's say 1370, simply because he lost the ability to cast most of his spells without going nuts. On the other hand, high level mages rarely rely on spells they have to cast in order to win a fight or survive a battle: they simply activate this ring or that trinket and let the stuff they carry do the dirty deeds. This is reiterated many times throughout the novels: even though crippled and stripped of his powers, even though always on the edge of despair and defeat, El has an immense power in the knowledge he has accumulated over his life, be it a secret door build under Amedahast, a niche in which healing potions were hidden under Piergeiron or a hidden panel in which a protection golem is kept on the second floor of the Twisted Tower. Of course I made up all this stuff.
So, as powerful? No. Still powerful? Yes, his knowledge is pretty much intact. I'm going to stop here, because i do not want to spoil anything to anyone that is going to read Elminster Enraged.
Of the mortals, the list is missing Szass Tam, the king of Thay, who is probably beyond even Elminster.
I agree with you on the first part, but I am kinda sceptical Szass Tam could beat Elminster in a fair fight. Then again, neither of both would ever find himself in a position of personally battling the other one. I just wanted to share something I read a few years back. You can find it here:
One interesting bit is this one: "A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing. Finally, Larloch replied."
I doubt this ever appeared on any manuals, but I thought it fitting to the discussion. So many possibilities...
this is one, but IIRC there was also a much stronger version of the minor drain he developed. Something close to Enervation, adsorbing 2d4 levels and transferring them to the caster.
Edit2: I found these two, but they appear in non-canon material and there is no description of the spells whatsoever, apart from the name: Larloch's Negative Energy Orb (lev2) Larloch's Major Drain (lev4)
Also, it could very well be that some of the spells he created do not hold his name. I mean, Horrid Wilting is simply called this way, but we all know that it was originally Abi-Dhalsim's Horrid wilting, right?
It is interesting to note that Tam was seemingly in service to Larloch. I just can't get over the fact that the only spell named for Larloch is so...minor.
Honestly, mages are by far one of the coolest characters in the forgotten realms infinity engine games. They really are the one class that really requires COMPLETE and total strategy to play with a party and solo definitely. I tried to solo a mage character in baldurs gate but it was tough. I had to restart. Ill try later with a party.
1-I read somewhere that specialist mages get a bonus to saves enemies must reach? Is this true?
2-Other than that, the only thing a specialist gets is 1 extra spell per spell level. Isnt it always better to be a vanilla mage?
I'll try to solo later on. Anyone done that with a specialist spellcaster. An abjurer probably is hard.
1. In PnP, specialists get a bonus towards saving throws they make against spells of their favored school, and when casting a spell of their favored school targets get a penalty towards saving throws (e.g. an Invoker will take less damage from Fireball on average and have more powerful Fireballs on average). To my knowledge this is not implemented in Baldur's Gate or the sequel, though. Their spells are exactly the same as generic mages.
2. The 1 extra spell can be a pretty big deal at different points in the game, particularly when you first get access to a new spell level. Some specialists (such as Conjurer) only lose 2-3 good spells over the entire game, so the trade-off can be pretty favorable. Others (Enchanter, Transmuter) lose a large number of useful spells. Wild Mages don't lose any spells, but have other drawbacks/advantages. I think most people would agree that a well-built specialist would be better than a generic mage most of the time.
I know there have been a few solo runs with specialists (Alesia_BH did one of a Transmuter with a few difficulty mods tacked on, but I don't know the specifics). It definitely sounds like one of the tougher ways to play, since you're constantly having to manage limited resources (spells, scrolls, wands, etc.).
Bah! Edwin Odesseiron could squash the pathetic Elminster with a wave of his little finger! You simians who say otherwise shall feel his wrath as well! (Bah...why am I even bothering. These monkeys understand nothing of power.)
Comments
I also received a warning because of the "kiddo" comment. It drives me to inquire: did I sound offensive or provocative by making such statement?
I will address your query soon. The warning was not for that comment in isolation.
I'd rather not discuss this issue in an unrelated thread and de-rail the OP's topic.
Not sure if it helps, I have no problem with kiddo.
Makes me feel (almost) young again
As far as Mystra goes, I mean Midnight, hence the Midnight/Mystra choice. Midnight has only been connected to the Weave for 10 years before the events of Baldur's Gate. Would that be enough to be more powerful than a mage like Elminster who has studied magic for hundreds of years?
http://theswordemperor.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/jonirenicus.jpg
Actually, he does have a scent of magic. Divine.
That idiot probably cast a necromancy spell or something and the Cowled Wizards busted him.
Midnight the mage was a low level mage and would clearly not have any chance to win in your poll. She had the luck to be in the right place at the right time and follow the events that unfolded before her. When she became Mystra, Midnight as a mage ceased to exist, because she immediately had access and notion of all the spells ever created, a kind of magic she had no notion of when she was a mere mortal.
Was the little time between the Avatar Crisis and the events depicted in BG enough for her to adjust to her new status? Imho you mistake in assuming years work the same way for deities as they do for humans. Whatever El (or anyone else, really) could have learned or discovered in 2000+ mortal years, a god or goddess could learn or understand in a fraction of that time. That and the fact that Mystra in the specific has 45 and 40 to Int and Wis, respectively. And the +95 to Knowledge (Arcana). I think that helps too...
When Midnight became the new goddess of Magic, she also became whole with the Weave, as demonstrated by the fact that arcane spells are unreliable when Mystra is either dead or incapacitated. There is also an interesting line in "Faiths and Pantheons" (page 50, under History/relations) where it is stated that, while Midnight/Mystra was in what we could probably define an "apprentiship" period, she "withheld the use of magic from deities and mortals alike". This is also reiterated in the description of the god, under the "Deny Weave" unique ability. Now, if she can deny the access of magic to gods, it is my humble opinion that she is the most poweful mage of the bunch.
One could also argue, but what about the Shadow Weave? You have a point, a user of the Shadow Weave would still get his chances against Mystra, since she has no control over the Shadow twin of the Weave. But I still believe that the SR 70 she's got is a pretty good defence against any kind of magic attack.
Edit: I just noted that @ELMINSTER HIMSELF voted for Mystra. No contest then...
Xzar: Summon Dragon
Xzar: Cancel Summon Dragon
Xzar: Summon Rabbit
Xzar: Cancel Summon Rabbit
Xzar: Chaotic Commands: Xzar
Xzar: Target was immune
Xzar: Confusion: Xzar
Xzar: Target was immune
Xzar: Summon Dragon Foot
Xzar: Domination: Your Grandmother
Xzar: Summon Dragon Egg
Party of Undead Hunters: Facepalm 10"
(he was bonking her at one point, right? In the first book?)
Mages really don't get many hitpoints!
2. Srinshee. Elven High Mage of immense power, according to Greenwood more powerful than even Larloch.
3. Arthindol the Terraseer. One of my favourites. Member of the Creator race (Sarrukh) which raises his CR to stratosphere (not as high as Ioulaum, though), powerful arcanist who is more than 50 000 years old. He is the one who foresaw the fall of Netheril if I'm not mistaken. And if Ioulaum was responsible for Netheril's prosperity, Arthindol was de facto the architect of beginnings of magic in the empire.
As to the poll — Midnight/Mystra? Seriously? Midnight couldn't cast higher level spells on her own and Mystra is a goddess of magic. It is beyond obvious she would be above everyone else on the list since she could deny access to the Weave to everyone. So I'm assuming it's a joke
He created Karsus's Avatar: a spell that could steal the power of whatever DEITY and transfer it to the caster... Did any other mortal accomplished that?
Ah yes, he also was a level 41 mage.
The only mistake he did was choosing the wrong target with that spell...
Who is currently level 22 in my BG2 TOB game at the moment and has quite abit of spells. Favored spell for him so far is Dark Planetar
Then there is the fact that Ioulaum and Karsus were fighting each other for sport (their enclaves) and Karsus was losing this fight without Ioulaum even being at home. If I'm not mistaken he was also contemplating using time magic to win this contest and defeat Ioulaum before he learned to cast spells — which proves he was even stupider since the resulting paradox that could happen didn't even cross his mind.
The comparison between those two is very similar to Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan from Revenge of the Sith — one of them might have even better potential (I'd agree that if Karsus was a bit wiser and lived up to his 3k years, he could be Ioulaums equall or even surpass him) but in the end, we all know how Anakin ended and we all know how Karsus ended
1-I read somewhere that specialist mages get a bonus to saves enemies must reach? Is this true?
2-Other than that, the only thing a specialist gets is 1 extra spell per spell level. Isnt it always better to be a vanilla mage?
I'll try to solo later on. Anyone done that with a specialist spellcaster. An abjurer probably is hard.
@booinyoureyes from the wiki, speaking about the SpellPlague years: "Following the death of Mystra [...] Elminster was stripped of many of his abilities as one of the Chosen, though [...] is still quite powerful magically. However, every use of his magic drives him to [...] insanity".
This is not specific to Elminster, because the same effect is true for the Simbul (which, safe for a short period, is completely crazy in the events depicted in the Sage of Shadowdale trilogy. The whole idea of magic-driving-you-nuts is common throughout the Realms at a certain point after the SpellPlague hit, because it was also reported that a number of mages were either killed or driven permanently insane (Catti-brie one of them) by the use of magic. El in particular could cast only minor spells without loosing his sanity and for anything particularly intense, he had to rely on Storm for bringing him back to reality.
So to answer your question, is he still as powerful? Despite what I reported above is true, he is clearly not as powerful as he was in let's say 1370, simply because he lost the ability to cast most of his spells without going nuts. On the other hand, high level mages rarely rely on spells they have to cast in order to win a fight or survive a battle: they simply activate this ring or that trinket and let the stuff they carry do the dirty deeds. This is reiterated many times throughout the novels: even though crippled and stripped of his powers, even though always on the edge of despair and defeat, El has an immense power in the knowledge he has accumulated over his life, be it a secret door build under Amedahast, a niche in which healing potions were hidden under Piergeiron or a hidden panel in which a protection golem is kept on the second floor of the Twisted Tower. Of course I made up all this stuff.
So, as powerful? No. Still powerful? Yes, his knowledge is pretty much intact. I'm going to stop here, because i do not want to spoil anything to anyone that is going to read Elminster Enraged.
Whenever you comment I've always got one thought:
"By Moradin's haaaammer! >:D"
The only real debate here is who is second. I'd be voting Azuth, Mystra's right hand and lesser deity.
Of the mortals, the list is missing Szass Tam, the king of Thay, who is probably beyond even Elminster.
I just wanted to share something I read a few years back. You can find it here:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?128345-Larloch-Shadowking-the-Last-True-Arcanist
One interesting bit is this one:
"A long moment of silence descended over the two undead creatures, their gazes locked on one another. If Szass would have had a heart, it would have been racing. Finally, Larloch replied."
I doubt this ever appeared on any manuals, but I thought it fitting to the discussion. So many possibilities...
Edit:
@ZaknafeinBaenre
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Devastate_undead
this is one, but IIRC there was also a much stronger version of the minor drain he developed. Something close to Enervation, adsorbing 2d4 levels and transferring them to the caster.
Edit2: I found these two, but they appear in non-canon material and there is no description of the spells whatsoever, apart from the name:
Larloch's Negative Energy Orb (lev2)
Larloch's Major Drain (lev4)
Also, it could very well be that some of the spells he created do not hold his name. I mean, Horrid Wilting is simply called this way, but we all know that it was originally Abi-Dhalsim's Horrid wilting, right?
2. The 1 extra spell can be a pretty big deal at different points in the game, particularly when you first get access to a new spell level. Some specialists (such as Conjurer) only lose 2-3 good spells over the entire game, so the trade-off can be pretty favorable. Others (Enchanter, Transmuter) lose a large number of useful spells. Wild Mages don't lose any spells, but have other drawbacks/advantages. I think most people would agree that a well-built specialist would be better than a generic mage most of the time.
I know there have been a few solo runs with specialists (Alesia_BH did one of a Transmuter with a few difficulty mods tacked on, but I don't know the specifics). It definitely sounds like one of the tougher ways to play, since you're constantly having to manage limited resources (spells, scrolls, wands, etc.).