The Thief Situation is Still Driving Me Crazy
OutsiderSubtype
Member Posts: 10
Imoen - Awesome, but unavailable for big chunks of the game. Generally comes back under-experienced compared to your party.
Nalia - Thieving points spent horribly and not enough of them. I think her personality is fine but it bothers some people.
Yoshimo - Awesome, but unavailable for most of the game. Also "wasting" experience points bothers me.
Jan - Mechanically good but annoying personality.
Hexxat - Only makes sense in evil parties and not even all of those. A few Mary Sue alarm bells with her character.
Charname dual to thief - Forces me to be a human. Forces me to backstab since I can't dual to Swashbuckler kit ( and it would be overpowered if I could).
Charname dual from thief - Forces me to be a human. Lose out on lots of HP. Lose out on exceptional strength. Lose out on kits for main class.
Charname thief multi - Forces me to not be human. Forces me to backstab.
Nalia - Thieving points spent horribly and not enough of them. I think her personality is fine but it bothers some people.
Yoshimo - Awesome, but unavailable for most of the game. Also "wasting" experience points bothers me.
Jan - Mechanically good but annoying personality.
Hexxat - Only makes sense in evil parties and not even all of those. A few Mary Sue alarm bells with her character.
Charname dual to thief - Forces me to be a human. Forces me to backstab since I can't dual to Swashbuckler kit ( and it would be overpowered if I could).
Charname dual from thief - Forces me to be a human. Lose out on lots of HP. Lose out on exceptional strength. Lose out on kits for main class.
Charname thief multi - Forces me to not be human. Forces me to backstab.
3
Comments
- Imoen->Yoshi->Imoen follow each other perfectly on the BG2 timeline. The amount of XP points you'd waste on Yoshi and/or miss on Immy can be minimised by going to Spellhold asap (and doing various sidequests in Chapter 6 instead of Chapter 2).
- your argument of the game forcing you to be human if you dual or non-human if you go multi sounds a bit academic to me: the game does leave you the choice, as such you're not limited to any particular race.
- if you use a savegame editor you could also edit another NPC into a thief (multi), for example I've often turned Viconia into a Cleric/Thief which not only solved my thief problem but also fits her character and lifestyle on the surface. For a good character, Valygar could work as a Fighter/Thief (or more fitting even Wizard Slayer/Thief).
- you could also install one or more mod NPCs. For example Alora and Tiax from BG1 (complete with banters) can be used, or Dace Linton (a Bounty Hunter) who can join your party once you escape from Irenicus' dungeon.
Rushing Spellhold is a good idea, except it makes most of the sidequests too easy when you do them in Chapter 6.
NPC mods and save game editing are just that, mods and tweaks. I can do them but I wish I didn't have to.
as some one that doesn't like to mod excessively its awful that your only real choice for thief is to play it as a pc.
Immy is awesome but to limited in respect to thief skills and availability
- a low level dual thief (like imoen) brings you all the thieving skills you will ever need
- traps are fine but are very difficult to use without cheese
- same for UAI
Therefore i don't think i would chose a pure kitless thief in a group (i don't do it either in BG1).
However, it would be have been great to have an assassin or swashbuckler because these 2 kits remain useful through the whole game
The assassin is and remains a very powerful mage killer with poison weapon.
At high levels, the swashbuckler is as powerful as a fighter/thief, if not better :
with belm and scarlet ninja to, you have 4APR (8 with improve haste), all with +8THACO (same thaco as a pure fighter) and +8 damage.
Thieves represent a style of gameplay you just don't get in bg2. Sure Imoen has the skills you need to get by but that's not the point at all.
I agree that multiclass thieves will be (even) more powerful throughout the game. Well I wouldn't say completely unrepresented. Jan is a fine thief throughout the game in spite of him being a multiclass. His specialist school has great synerrgy with his thief class, both from a roleplaying perspective and practically. He won't be the best backstabber without buffs/items, but that's just one possible aspect of a thief. He makes for a good scout and a good mechanical thief e.g. I agree with you though that for example the Warrior - Rogue ratio in BG2 isn't balanced.
i don't use much buffs and i don't like hyper-microing (feels the same way as kiting) so i don't use thieves other than fighter/thieves (thief class for detect illusion, set trap, occasional backstab and most importantly uai)
In regards to your comment on wasting exp on Yoshimo, it is worth pointing out that Nalia, while her skills ARE horribly placed, is competent enough to open every lock/disarm any trap until you get Imoen back, if you are willing to micromanage ring/potions with her.
Her stealth capabilities are irrelevant because she can use illusion spells, and her backstabbing, while it will never be strong, can be made less terrible with spells.
90% of my playthroughs she functions just fine as the lone thief in my party until I get Immy back. (I don't like Yoshimo or Jan, and I haven't played with Hexxat yet.)
If I had to guess I'd say that in SoA you can probably buy around 24-27 Potions of Mind Focusing from temples alone (I think every temple in the game has them, and when they do they have 3, though there may be a few who don't).
She requires more maintenance than say Imoen but considering the availability of potions to help her she really isn't that bad.
The simple truth is that the game needed more multi-thieves like Jan - this way, they could serve a function in addition to just being thieves, and (unlike dualed thieves like Imoen and Nalia) they'd still be able to add more points to their thieving skills as they level up.
Running without a thief isn't an option. Traps often deal 50+ points of damage or force save or dies.
Ok, Jan speaks a lot but is better than Valygar that is a ghost in your party and other npc that speak only about good behaviours and have only prevedible conversations justified only to the base of their alignment.
GRANDE JAN, TI ADORO! (Great Jan, I love u!)
I tried also Hexxat, she comes to high levels and her traps are deadly, she killed every dragon i matched
Honestly with the exception of his crossbow all his equipment is excellent. To the point where I'd probably not even think about replacing it until ToB. Unless of course I had no other mages in the party and had the Robe of Vecna.
The first skill I would put towards is Set Traps. Even though he is a multiclass they can still be very useful. Once you have that up to 100 you could also increase his Detect Illusions by 10 if its not already at 100. After that point then feel free to put towards whatever you'd like. With his equipment bonuses and spell access he pretty much covers everything important already.
In combat you can use him by having him use traps, backstab (especially if he has Mislead), tank (if he has stoneskin/protection from magical weapons), or cast spells.
For spells I'll just copy (and modify) part of my NPC Guide to BG2EE here (found here http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=195278341# ). Keep in mind that his level will be behind that of a single class or dual class mage so he won't be as damaging or have spells as long lasting as some of your other options for NPCs. Also his Remove Magic and Dispel Magic won't be as effective as they would be if he were Haer'Dalis.
Buff spells
Depending upon the circumstances you are facing he can buff party members with spells like Strength (level 2), Resist Fear (level 2), Haste (level 3), Invisibility, 10' Radius (level 3), Protection from Cold (level 3), Protection from Fire (level 3), Improved Invisibility (level 4), Protection from Acid (level 4), Protection from Lightning (level 4), Improved Haste (level 6), Protection from Magical Energy (level 6), Mass Invisibility (level 7), or Protection from the Elements (level 7).
He also has the option of using transmutation spells like Polymorph Self and (very late into the game) Shapechange. The spider form and the mustard jelly form are particularly useful since the spider has 5 attacks per round (and you can use triggers to improve its weapon damage) and the mustard jelly has 100% resistant to magic.
Like any mage he also gets triggers and continguencies that add all sorts of options.
Damaging Spells
Jan missed out on some of the better damaging spells in the game like Skull Trap and Horrid Wilting. However he still gets access to area of effect damage spells like Fireball (level 3) and Cloudkill (level 5). Eventually he will gain access to pretty good damage spells like Delayed Blast Fireball (level 7), Incendiary Cloud (level 8), Dragon's Breath (HLA), and Comet (HLA).
Debuff Spells
You can also use him more in a debuff (reduce the enemies ability or power) role. Spells like Greater Malison, Emotion: Hopelessness, Polymorph Other, Chaos, and any of the non-death Symbol or Power Word spells (Power Word: Stun or Symbol: Stun for instance) work well (though Power Word: Silence isn't a particularly handy spell). Make sure to look them all over individually if you are going to use them because they can vary on their casting times and how they treat saving throws.
Basically for combat casting I would use him in a role that I felt my main mage/sorcerer wasn't strongly focused in. Party buffs for instance. But I mean you can basically use him in a wide range of roles.