Clerics and Ascension
terzaerian
Member Posts: 232
I've often thought - how does it work if someone ends BG:TOB as a cleric, and chooses godhood? By that point one has already risen high within a faith, and presumably has some cachet with their chosen god or goddess. Is it a losing proposition - i.e., do they lose whatever powers they formerly had with their deity's blessing - or do they presumably become a cadet or minor ally aligned with their chosen deity? Apologies if there is another thread on this or if it's answered in the game already - I've yet to finish BG with a cleric, hence my curiosity, as I'm weighing starting one up.
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Technically, if you are a cleric and ascend, you would be a cleric of... you.
I'm dual-classing off a Berserker so Helm/Lathander/Talos are out of the picture, more for roleplay purposes than anything. Combined with the class and the character's own alignment, I think the stars are aligning to pick Tempus as a patron.
Helm is also only an intermediate level deity, so you'd be same 'rank' likely. I would have loved a 'visit' from your patron if you were a kitted cleric, in SoA especially, since your deity either way would be very interested in you. I could see him working with you if you managed to behave strictly according to your duty, but note Helm isnt even friendly with Kelemvor.
By ToB, you actually ARE likely on par at minimum with his avatar... you fight a called Demogorgon remember!
You'd be no where near Helm's level to start off with. Since this is post time of troubles (in BG), your power is directly proportional to your number of followers. It will take you awhile before you ever end up with followers in similar numbers compared to Helm.
Also you end up making your realm in Celestian, which IIRC, is where helm hangs out (along with Tyr, Torm, etc) so you also have that going in your favor.
I doubt he'd fully approve, but you don't just throw away a level 31 cleric of your faith, etc. If anything you'd prolly try to be an exarch to him if you could. Although those really don't become big till 4th edition.
I agree that he'd prolly be the least likely to approve, and it would fully depend on exactly what domain you were planning on taking. It also helps that you have the option to NOT ascend, which in this case would be the more likely case from an RP standpoint for ANY cleric IMO.
By ToB, you would be a match for Helm's avatar, or if not its better. You're a ridiculous level by the end generally, definately well into epic levels.
Helm wouldnt hesitate to disown any follower that fails to uphold his strictures I'd say, he's the lesdt tolerant deity in the Pantheon. Thats why he's not good! He is very much the type to follow the rules to his own detriment. Not much pity or sympathy for the guardians of WK remember. And they are NOT low level! Helm is also very old, and not generally fond of new deities.
I think you could argue that Lathander would be okay with it, as he's big on newness, and almost naive. Hed welcome a new good deity I think. Talos wouldnt bat an eyelash imo, hes elevated mortals before actually, to profit off them. See Velsharoon. He would be intending you ill, but he'd be tickled pink to see you elevated.
I agree though that almost any other patron would tend to discourage ascension.
I hope none of this came off to rudely though, I admit its largely conjecture.
A Lawful Neutral Cleric of Helm that becomes the new Lord of Murder, could be the Lawful Neutral God of lawful executions of criminals or mercy-killings.
Or maybe of (self) sacrifices to protect something greater, as Helm is the god of guardians.
Like Tempus is the Chaotic Neutral god of battles. Red Knight which she sees him like a father figure, is the Lawful Neutral god of strategy and tactics in battle.
You don't technically become the Lord of "Murder". Bhaal was the god of death and Myrkul the god of the dead.
You can be a Lawful Good/Neutral, God of Death (Lawful Good: self-sacrifices or Lawful Neutral: sacrifice the few to save the many), just like Kelemvor took Myrkul's place of the Neutral Evil God of the Dead and became the just Lawful Neutral Judge of the Dead, instead of the fearsome (Grim) Reaper.
As Spock said: "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few". That's a purely logical and democratic thinking, Lawful Neutral.
A few must die so that the majority can live.
I like the Kelemvor/Myrkul example. Kelemvor follows in the footsteps of much less savory deities such as Myrkul and Cyric. Although he did share some aspects with Jergal, both being LN aligned.
So it seems, in the fluff at least that the portfolio can be altered by the person who takes it.
For example, a Chaotic Evil Dragon Disciple becoming the new Lord of Murder, could be all about ritualistic sacrifices by burning them alive and maybe become an ally of Tiamat.
A Lawful Good Cavalier Lord of Murder/Death could be about honorable and self-sacrificing death or mercy-killings if it's absolutely necessary.
You can take any kind of portfolio and adapt it, to see it from a different angle.
One example is Kelemvor, the other is Finder Wyvernspur.
"The exceptional adventurer Finder Wyvernspur absorbed and adapted Moander's portfolio, and is now the patron of the cycle of life." - Time of Troubles.
Bane is dead during BG2. So what Bane would do is actually irrelevant. As for Fzoul, Bane has watched his 'faith' be tested to an unprecedented degree, including twice having his patron DIE. He was also Bane's Chosen for years, and finally, unless 4th redefined what demigod means, the Bhaalspawn would not only personally be stronger (way higher level, and possessing divine blood), he would solidly outrank him when he ascends. Death is one of the big portfolios.
You're ignoring the question 'why would Helm help me disrupt the balance', which means you're mischaracterizing Helm. He's not a fan of upstart gods, and doesnt worry about much beyond order and structure. A cleric only has power if their patron supplies it, and a solid srgument could be made that if you arent behaving responsibly he would drop you, and embracing your heritage can be seen as irresponsible.
You dont become a demigod of something new, if you ascend you take Death from Cyric. You probably dont have to be god of Assassins, but might also get inherited. Thats why he was called the Lord of Murder, since killing and dying is his portfolio.
You are misrepresenting Myrkul. He was indeed a judge of the dead, hence Jergal liking him more than Cyric, who was an unstable God of the Dead (and Death, but these are seperate). Myrkul was 'tough but fair', not remotely kind, but did generally fullfill his duties. He wasnt Death, just the being that existed to punish the fallen and faithless.
LN does not at all mean whst you're saying. If Helm sees it as his duty to anihilate the many for the few, he'll do it without hesitation. Democracy is completely irrelevant; Helm is not Good. Period.
You don't become a god of something new, but you can adapt a portfolio. Kelemvor and Finder are the prime examples and evidence. Fact.
About Myrkul:
"Myrkul had a cold, malignant intelligence... His influence in Faerûn was imposed through fear, and he was a master of making mortals terrified of him through his words and deeds."
Myrkul's Dogma: "Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient but sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me"
Titles:
Lord of Bones
Lord of the Dead
Old Lord Skull
The Reaper
Yeah, poor misunderstood Myrkul.
Now about Kelemvor:
"Fair yet cold, Kelemvor was the god of death and the dead—the most recent deity to hold this position, following in the footsteps of Jergal, Myrkul, and Cyric.
Unlike these other deities, whose rule as gods of the dead made the afterlife an uncertain and fearful thing, Kelemvor urged knowledge that death was a natural part of life and should not be feared as long as it was understood."
Lawful Neutral is about doing one's duty and what is necessary, without moral dilemmas.
Helm is prime example of that. He killed Mystra in Time of Troubles because he had to.
He's also the God of Guardians. Guardian = protecting something or someone else if ordered to.
A Lawful Neutral God of Death would be about killing those that need to be killed without hesitation but only if he needs to, making him neither Good or Evil. Like Helm.
If you're a king and you need to do your duty for your people and kingdom, sacrificing soldiers or something else as a necessary evil, you would likely pray to a Lawful Neutral God of Death.
A mercenary that is his job and duty to kill but doesn't enjoy it, would pray to the Lawful Neutral God of Death.
Also, since he'll be Lawful Neutral, he can have Lawful Good worshipers (Paladins that kill the evil or self-sacrifice) and Lawful Evil (murderers).
Like Helm can have Lawful Good/Evil worshipers or Kelemvor or Red Knight or Hoar or Jergal etc.
Did you know that Hoar has both Paladins and Assassins as worshipers?
The idea that one adapts the portfolio to their alignment is one I hadn't considered, but makes sense. Makes me wish there had been some more interactions with Kelemvor in the game.
Probably shouldn't derail my own thread too hard on this tangent so I think I will post another on this specific topic later today.
You're misrepresenting Helm by not remembering his devotion to order and establishment. He isnt coloured by good or evil, so he's all law all the time. It is irresponsible to try to become a god, look at the track record, from Karsus to Cyric. Known facts: Helm doesnt like change, is obsessed with personality responsibility to duty, and does not get along with other Gods as a rule with 1 exception.
A Paladin of Hoar is very unstable, since he has to satisfy both his vengeance obsessed patron AND still be strictly adhering to the Paladin's code of conduct. Its possible, but falling is likely. You'd be taking the Gray paladin PC asap, to get breathing room.
I agree there is nothing wrong with a Lawful Neutral god of Death and the Dead. Remember Jergal? He gave the Dark Three his power? He is LN. *shrug* I never said the alignment is at odds with the portfolio, just that Helm wouldnt be in favour of new deities, and we know hes not an ally of Kelemvor anyways, so merely being LN wouldnt cut it. Helm has roughly 1 ally in the entire Pantheon. Given a few millenia, he might warm to a new God, but its rarer than rare.
Kelemvor was a dead imprisoned soul during the game @terzaerian so he cant talk to you. He was also a crappy god for awhile.
Following Cyric as a god is borderline suicide. He enjoys killing them to claim portfolios. One reason he has no allies!