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Avenger in BGEE

RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
edited August 2014 in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I have hit level 7 as an avenger and much to my dismay, have discovered that the sword spider doesnt do poison damage on hit, unlike in the original baldur's gate 2 implementations (the sword spider is also missing an attack per round and movement speed from the permahaste it had in BG2). I was planning on using the sword spider's respectable armour class and extremely high poison damage to be me my main fighter in my party (its just me and Imoen and I had a pretty hard time getting to level 7, so I am really hoping this is fixable). But without the poison damage, the sword spider's damage output is pathetic. It averages only 3.5 damage per hit, and 4 attacks per round is a lot less impressive when your thac0 is just that of a priest without any strength, proficiency or enchantment bonuses.

On top of that, my armour class was 4 lower in BG2 in sword spider form compared to BGEE, and no equipment or other armour bonuses account for this.

I am aware however that outside of shapeshifting, sword spiders dont actually do poison damage, so:

- Is anyone else having this issue?

- If so, is this a bug, or is it an intentional fix (which happens to ruin the shapeshiting portion of the avenger kit)?

- Does anyone know of a way to restore the sword spider to its BG2 implementation?

If not, I think I am giving up on this run, bear form does reasonable damage, but with an abysmal armour class, and as I have leveled only myself and Imoen, I cant be bothered to try and train up a tank (or pick up one from an area I havent yet visited with gimped proficiency allocations).
Post edited by RandyMcStud on

Comments

  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Ok I have just checked BG2EE and it appears that the sword spider form there is true to its original implementation, with 5 apr and 18 poison damage over 3 rounds per hit (stacking), no save, plus the superior armour class.

    So correctly implemented, the sword spider does an impressive 107.5 damage per round (assuming every hit lands and the poison damage fully runs its course before the target dies, which isnt particularly realistic I'll grant).

    But in its present form in BGEE, the sword spider does 14 damage per round. Thats a pretty significant nerf.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Ok I have solved the mystery, by testing polymorph self in BGEE.

    BGEE is using the original tales of the sword coast implementation of the polymorph self spell, which was utter garbage. Both that spell and the Avenger kit share the same ability for the sword spider shape, so BGEE using the gimped TOTSC implementation of polymorph self carries over into a gimped sword spider shape.

    To my mind, this is a bug. The avenger kit was from BG2, and should be implemented accordingly, not according to the TOTSC implementation of the polymorph self spell (which is clearly hopelessly underpowered), and in any case, is not logically related to the avenger kit at all. If you want to implement a gimped version of polymorph self to stay true to the original, fine, but dont ruin a perfectly good kit in the process by making its most powerful form useless, with an armour class 4 points lower and roughly 1/8th of the damage potential. Use separate abilities for the avenger kit and polymorph self, or just use the BG2 version of polymorph self.

    Anyway, if anyone has any ideas about how to restore the BG2 version of sword spider, I would be grateful, my current playthrough is pretty much ruined without it :).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Sword spiders poison in BG2EE is 1 damage every 2 seconds, or 3 damage/round. It lasts for 6 rounds.

    The sword spider from both Polymorph Self and the Avenger form use the same itm file. That is the most likely explanation for why its different between the two games. It could be for balance reasons as well (like how Totemic druid summons don't start out with a massive number of immunities including immunity to normal weapons).

    Anyways as a player character druid you eventually can get DUHM as an innate ability. At level 9 you can use that and have a sword spider with 19 strength. Given that the spider is now immune to the Web spell, and that webbed creatures are an auto-hit, your damage potentially is still very high either way (particularly against creatures that aren't immune to web). Especially given that you are just a priest.

    I just checked PnP and it doesn't have poison there either.

    Attached you will find the sword spider portion of the latest update to my shapeshifting mod. It does not add poison damage but the changes are as follows.

    As per its description it should now be entirely immune to web, hold, and paralysis. Sets its constitution to 9. Gives its BG2 AC bonus (-4 against all weapons). It also is now hasted and its attacks do 2d6 piercing damage."

    If you want it just put the two files (the spl and itm file) found in this rar file into your override folder.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    Thanks a lot, that is a significant improvement :).

    Personally, I dont think it is likely that the nerf was intentional, but rather an unintended consequence of their implementation of the BG1 version of polymorph self.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2014
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    I dont think the Avenger forms are meant to tank the way a Shapeshifter can... combined with your handy dandy Web spell, you can massacre pretty much anything. Not much is immune to web in BG1, so adding poison is pretty much in the 'win button' territory, but its AC should be decent as the sword spider. A bit convoluted, but have you taken single weapon style proficiency? Iirc, it stacks, and with 4 apr, that crit increase is pretty big. Avenger forms are more of a support fighter than a tank, which is why you have spells, right? Also, those +1 gauntlets iirc will help. Not gamebreaking, but your THAC0 isnt wizard-bad at least.
  • ThrasymachusThrasymachus Member Posts: 876
    edited August 2014
    @elminster‌: is that file for BGEE only, or BG2EE as well? If it is for both games, does it affect (remove) the poison ability of sword spiders in BG2EE? Thanks!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    Thrasymachus said:

    @elminster‌: is that file for BGEE only, or BG2EE as well? If it is for both games, does it affect (remove) the poison ability of sword spiders in BG2EE? Thanks!

    You should be able to use it in bg2ee. The description for the ability will be an issue but mechanically it should be fine. I have not tested it in bg2ee however so um buyer beware?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    And yea it would remove the poison damage.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    RandyMcStud said:

    Thanks a lot, that is a significant improvement :).

    Personally, I dont think it is likely that the nerf was intentional, but rather an unintended consequence of their implementation of the BG1 version of polymorph self.

    I can tell you that it wasn't a mistake. Bg2 sword spiders are balanced for bg2; the ones in bg1 are balanced for bg1.
  • RandyMcStudRandyMcStud Member Posts: 71
    edited August 2014
    Dee said:


    I can tell you that it wasn't a mistake. Bg2 sword spiders are balanced for bg2; the ones in bg1 are balanced for bg1.

    Ok, thanks for the clarification. However, their stats at present are neither consistent with pnp sword spiders, nor the avenger kit as it was originally implemented in BG2. And I dont particularly see why a nerf was warranted at all, let alone be as heavy as it is.

    To repeat, the sword spider at present has an armour class of 1 with a poor constitution, and 4 attacks per round that do only 1d4+1, at a lousy thac0. They arent nearly durable enough to tank and they do abysmal damage. So seeing as you will have to get someone else to tank anyway, you would be much better off in brown bear form which has 3 attack per round at a superior thac0 and much higher damage (1d6+6), and counts as a magical weapon. And I dont recall anyone ever saying that brown bear form was overpowered.

    Its not as though you start with sword spider form from level 1, unlike the shapeshifter's significantly more powerful werewolf form. You have to get to level 7. I dont think a shape which was only ever useful for early game in BG2 (due to not having enchanted attacks and having a poor thac0) would be particularly overpowered in BG1. It is certainly far less overpowered than say the archer kit and the beserker kit which are tremendously powerful in BG1.
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