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Epiphany: Neera > Edwin

GrayleGrayle Member Posts: 43
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Unless the bhallspawn is a wild mage.

Not until she starts getting access to the higher level spells, but when she does - and you start casting horrid wilting as a level 1 spell while being protected by greater chaos shield... Edwin just cries in the corner.
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  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    I mostly use it to cast Clairvoyance :o
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Right up to the point where Neera 'Cows' someone.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    BLASPHEMY!!!
  • GrayleGrayle Member Posts: 43
    the_spyder said:

    Right up to the point where Neera 'Cows' someone.

    The chance is miniscule with greater chaos shield up... actually, I've never had anything bad happen with greater chaos shield up. Maybe good wild magic effects, but never bad ones.

  • GrayleGrayle Member Posts: 43
    GoodSteve said:

    Grayle said:

    the_spyder said:

    Right up to the point where Neera 'Cows' someone.

    The chance is miniscule with greater chaos shield up... actually, I've never had anything bad happen with greater chaos shield up. Maybe good wild magic effects, but never bad ones.

    Actually I'm pretty sure that any time you cast Nahal's Reckless Dweomer that you get a wild surge. Improved Chaos Shield just adds +25 on the wild surge chart. Higher numbers on the chart are typically better than lower ones but you still have a chance of getting some sucky results... like 88 making a cow fall from the sky to randomly smack someone... or 94 where instead of casting finger of death on the big bad red dragon you instead haste them...
    Don't forget the wild mage level bonus though... which is why Neera starts coming into her own at the tail end of SoA onwards. Before that, she's definitely a loose cannon - but I can handle it. heh

  • BobCBobC Member Posts: 47
    edited September 2014
    Honestly, I always found Edwin overrated. Don't get me wrong; a huge number of spells is great, but that isn't the only thing that makes a mage decent. I think the other 5 mages in the game just as good thanks for this own little advantages. I also think mages get more than enough spell slots late game (note: I'm not a rest spammer :p).

    Also, in before SionIV.
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    One of the days I really need to figure out how to make a Wild Mage work...
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    Honestly, Neera gets really OP in SoA and ToB. The Wild Mage items from her quest are just too good. I mean, there's that robe that grants permanent Chaos Shield, and then there's that circlet in her ToB quest that gives her like 15% better outcomes on Wild Surges. So, yeah, those items definitely make up for the fact that you can't even use Edwin in a group with Neera.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    subtledoctor said:

    Why introduce an interesting class to the game, and then hand the player items and abilities that effectively nullify one of its most basic characteristics?? Oh except it naturally leaves intact the cheesy munchkin aspects of the class.

    Warlock anyone?

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  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited September 2014
    I know what you mean, @subtledoctor, and I've been similarly concerned about some elements of childish dumbing-down, but I think you're exaggerating.
    subtledoctor said:

    This is actually becoming a trend with Beamdog. They've added
    - a wild mage who very quickly loses any downside to being 'wild'

    Not "quickly". Neera is still an unpredicatble liability until around the end of SoA. After that, yes, she rarely goes wrong. If (like me) your playing-style is risk-averse, then you can minimise risk by not using NRD, but of course that means you're taking her along for story/RP reasons rather than really using her as a Wild Mage.
    subtledoctor said:

    - a blackguard. 'nuff said.

    Nothing wrong in principle with that, it's a valid concept in D&D lore. Of course we can argue about the details of implementation, and I agree that they've made it a pretty powerful kit ... but Inquisitor has always been in the game, and I'd argue that's an equally strong kit.
    subtledoctor said:

    - a sorcerer... but sorcerers aren't OP enough already, so let's give him *more* spells (!) and magic resistance, that would make him über-kewl!

    Well yes, Baeloth is rather too strong, I can't argue with that. If he didn't have the extra spells, I think he'd fit in well enough. (The MR would remain a distinct advantage, of course, but for a drow that's expected.)
    subtledoctor said:

    - a thief... oh but with 20 STR and unkillable.

    Yes, a thoroughly implausible character, well below their usual creative standards. However, in spite of 20 STR and unkillable, I discovered (when I took her through a full run to the end of ToB) than she's still a surprisingly weak member of the party. Pureclass Thieves just aren't very powerful, mainly because of their poor THAC0 and limited weapon proficiency - once you're facing higher-level enemies, they just miss most of the time.
    subtledoctor said:

    - for funsies, let's throw in a non-magic-user class that can stop time.

    I agree that Shadowdancer is a weird kit, rather an unnatural-looking development, but (now that they've rebalanced it) it no longer seems greatly over-powered.
    subtledoctor said:

    I'm used to games with modding boards full of superweapons and other puerile, cheesy crap. But Baldur's Gate has become the one game where the modding community actually spends more effort toning down the excesses of the devs. Is this company run by 12 year-olds?

    Yes, I remember that puerile crap in other places, and there's some of it for BG too, although fortunately not so much as for most games. However, I reckon the BG modders as a whole spend at least as much time encouraging silliness as toning it down. At least we do have some modders in BG who believe in credible grown-up gaming, unlike some other games where "mod" and "cheesy crap" are almost synonymous. (Sometimes, I wonder why some so-called modders for other games don't just install a "Win Now!" button on the loading screen, to jump straight to the end-of-game cutscene!)

    As well as times when Beamdog have created new excesses (see above), there have also been times when Beamdog have toned down a previous excess, or patched out a cheesy exploit, which had been left in the game by the original devs. I think it's very much to their credit that they're looking at such issues ... yet immediately there's an outcry, and someone creates a mod to re-instate the cheese. Even one of the forum moderators was offering a mod here (I think it was just yesterday) to re-instate cheesiness which the company had patched out, which rather disappointed me.

    So no, I don't think the company is run by 12-year-olds ... although I suspect it may include some 12-year-olds.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    I agree, I prefer Neera to Edwin she has comparable power with a more entertaining kit as well as being playable in every party.
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    edited September 2014
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  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    I think were forgetting the most important reason why Neera is better than Edwin. She can cast Identify. Enough said.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    element said:

    I agree, I prefer Neera to Edwin she has comparable power with a more entertaining kit as well as being playable in every party.

    I was actually going to post that 'At low levels, Edwin rules'. Then I read this. I agree. The randomness of casting wild magic at low levels can sometimes be all the entertainment that one needs.
  • GrayleGrayle Member Posts: 43
    edited September 2014
    Alexisisinneed said:

    I think were forgetting the most important reason why Neera is better than Edwin. She can cast Identify. Enough said.

    interestingly enough, when your 1st level spells are full of reckless dweomers that's not the case. Identify isn't a selectable spell after casting dweomer. :P

    By the way, good call on her specialized equipment. That's probably why I always see good things when she casts... ;)

  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    Grayle said:

    Alexisisinneed said:

    I think were forgetting the most important reason why Neera is better than Edwin. She can cast Identify. Enough said.

    interestingly enough, when your 1st level spells are full of reckless dweomers that's not the case. Identify isn't a selectable spell after casting dweomer. :P

    By the way, good call on her specialized equipment. That's probably why I always see good things when she casts... ;)

    My first run of her through bg2ee at the end of tob she had two identify and three nrd. Though her starting spells in bg2 is always weaker compared to what she had at the end bg1 in my party.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Alexisisinneed said:

    Though her starting spells in bg2 is always weaker compared to what she had at the end bg1 in my party.

    LOL! Yes. Any Mage in any of my parties at the end of BG1 always has a full spellbook (well, full so far as spells are included in BG1, so most everything up to level 4 spells, and a few level 5 spells). It's always an RP mystery to me how they came to lose so much knowledge in the time between the games!
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    Gallowglass said:

    Alexisisinneed said:

    Though her starting spells in bg2 is always weaker compared to what she had at the end bg1 in my party.

    LOL! Yes. Any Mage in any of my parties at the end of BG1 always has a full spellbook (well, full so far as spells are included in BG1, so most everything up to level 4 spells, and a few level 5 spells). It's always an RP mystery to me how they came to lose so much knowledge in the time between the games!
    Oh its because their dead and a lonely dopplerganger has taken your mage's place. Why? Because the lonely dopplerganger just want's to be closer to your compassionate heart.
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,582
    BobC said:

    Honestly, I always found Edwin overrated. Don't get me wrong; a huge number of spells is great, but that isn't the only thing that makes a mage decent. I think the other 5 mages in the game just as good thanks for this own little advantages. I also think mages get more than enough spell slots late game (note: I'm not a rest spammer :p).

    The fact that Edwin can't identify items in the field has always been a fatal flaw in my eyes. I'd rather forgo the extra 1st level spells if it means that I don't have to spend $100 every time that I want something identified.

    Also, he has some crappy stats outside of his intelligence, and also the most intolerable personality of any NPC in the entire series IMO.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    BobC said:

    I think the other 5 mages in the game just as good thanks for this own little advantages.

    Indeed, other Mages have non-Mage abilities which are often useful.

    Imoen and Nalia are only somewhat weaker than Edwin as Mages, but are both competent with a Shortbow (which is pretty handy when they're not casting), and in Imoen's case her Thief skills are enough to be useful ... meanwhile Jan and Aerie are definitely weaker as Mages, but have a whole other half-class to offer. Edwin (like Neera) brings nothing to the party except his impressive Mage ability.

    Which Mage is "best" depends on who else is in the party and what skills your party needs. If all other skills are fully covered by the other party members, then you choose between Edwin and Neera, but if the party needs a boost to some other skill as well as arcane casting, then that's when you pick one of the other Mages. If you've got no Thief, for example, then obviously you'll be looking at either Jan or Imoen, and so on.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    Gallowglass said:

    It's always an RP mystery to me how they came to lose so much knowledge in the time between the games!

    They dropped their spell books? I doubt they'd offer a reward for the return of said books either, so anyone who may have found them wouldn't bother probably :)
  • GrayleGrayle Member Posts: 43
    Silverstar said:

    Gallowglass said:

    It's always an RP mystery to me how they came to lose so much knowledge in the time between the games!

    They dropped their spell books? I doubt they'd offer a reward for the return of said books either, so anyone who may have found them wouldn't bother probably :)
    On the bright side, your basically printing XP by scribing scrolls in BG2 - so I wouldn't consider it a bad thing. Maybe you caught them in midscribe?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Gallowglass said:

    Alexisisinneed said:

    Though her starting spells in bg2 is always weaker compared to what she had at the end bg1 in my party.

    LOL! Yes. Any Mage in any of my parties at the end of BG1 always has a full spellbook (well, full so far as spells are included in BG1, so most everything up to level 4 spells, and a few level 5 spells). It's always an RP mystery to me how they came to lose so much knowledge in the time between the games!
    Understand that "Known" spells aren't strictly speaking that. Sure you have to "Learn" them, but that means that you have scribed them into your spell book. If you lose your book, or it is destroyed or whatever, those spells are gone for good until you find them again. And then you have to scribe them all over again, including the chance to mess up.

    So Irenicus, or some other event, caused them to lose their books and hey-presto they have to start again.

  • FleshIsADesignFlawFleshIsADesignFlaw Member Posts: 39
    SharGuidesMyHand said:

    BobC said:



    Also, he has some crappy stats outside of his intelligence, and also the most intolerable personality of any NPC in the entire series IMO.


    What? Edwin has the most entertaining personality and interjections of any NPC in the entire series. I can't play without Edwin for that reason and it's not because of his Greater Amulet of Overpoweredness.

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