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What dispels what?

BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
edited August 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
I'd like to see some kind of chart on what spells dispel what protections (dispel magic + globe o invulnerability = ???) and what protections protect from dispels (dispel magic + spell immunity: abjuration = ???). Is there any such available that would reflect or changes/fixes done in BG:EE? Also specifically, Dispel Magic works better with high level caster against low level target than vice versa, is this explained anywhere?

Comments

  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    edited August 2012
    Can't recall that I've seen a comprehensive list anywhere. Figuring this is out and making sure you have the tools you need is probably one of the trickier combat-related challenges in the game, especially if you use a mod that ups the AI and versatility of enemy mages.

    Dispel/remove magic will not remove the globes of invulnerability in a vanilla game afaik, but there are mods that fix this. As for SI:abjuration, Ruby Ray of Reversal will take it down. I believe breach will also work through it (but obviously not remove it) unless you use mods.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863
    The mechanics of Dispel Magic (higher level chance for success) are explained in the spell's description itself.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    @Bercon here is the chart http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/SpellProtections.htm
    Although I do agree it would be great to see this information integrated into manual or something..
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    The description of Dispel Magic talk about the level difference of original caster and caster of the dispel magic. But I'm not quite sure I get this.

    Lets say you have a level 11 fighter with two spells on him:
    1. Haste from level 9 mage
    2. Protection from Evil from level 7 cleric

    Now I cast Dispel Magic on him with level 9 mage. What are my chances of dispelling and what? Is Dispel Magic calculated per protection or is it just one roll for all protections? If latter, what level is used to determine the chance?

    11 level fighter: 50%-10%*2 = 30% chance
    9 level mage (Haste): 50% chance
    7 level cleric (PfE): 50%+5%*2 = 60% chance

    So is my chance 30% to dispel everything? Or perhaps 50% just to dispel Haste and 60% just to dispel PfE? Or is this completely wrong and I should be looking at the level of the spell, like 1-9 spell levels of mage?

    I like to play with AI mods (SCS) so some information on what affects what would be nice. The descriptions only get you so far...
  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 436
    You know, the lack of guidance in spells was hard at first but in the end is one of the reason why I liked BG so much. In a game today we would have a pop up pointing to the button we should press to dispel X...
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    I compiled a chart myself which is based on the spell descriptions. So I'm not exactly sure how this works in practice: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AoLScCUe7V__dE1RaEhCbm5na0VlakQwYVMxOFJVc1E

    Any thoughts? Did I get something wrong?

    I find dispel magic and breach pretty overpowered in this setup, because you can just cast breach on everything and hack it into pieces (except liches which are immune to 5th level spells). Based on the spell descriptions, there is absolutely no way of protecting yourself from dispel magic, it will just dispel absolutely everything except spell protections.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Breach is definitely powerful.. but then again, the various mage protections from physical damage and the way they can be applied through contingencies are very strong as well.

    And dispel/remove magic isn't always very reliable since most significant enemies you face will be of higher level than you. Vanilla inquisitor dispels and Carsomyr tend to be overpowered though.
  • fighter_mage_thieffighter_mage_thief Member Posts: 262
    edited August 2012
    It looks like a lot, but it doesn't take very long to absorb.

    (1) True Sight (6th for all levels 10 rounds), Oracle (5th for 5th and lower), and Detect Illusion (3rd for 3rd and lower) for illusions. Detect Invisibility (2nd for all levels I believe, can't verify though, and probably doesn't count mislead) for invisibility.

    (2) Breach (5th for all levels) to handle stoneskin, mantles, absolute immunity, protection from normal missiles, normal weapons, and magic weapons, and elemental resists.

    (3) Then there's the line that targets spell absorption spells (like globe of invulnerability, turning, deflection, spell trap). They are Spell Thrust (3rd for all 5th and lower), Secret Word (4th for one 8th max), Pierce Magic (6th for one 8th max and magic resist debuff), Khelban's Warding Whip (7th for three 8th max), Ruby Ray of Reversal (7th for one of highest level), Pierce Shield (8th for one any level and magic resist debuff), and Spell Strike (9th for all of all levels). Pierce Shield (8th) is basically Lower Resistance (5th) and Ruby Ray of Reversal (7th) combined.

    (4) Dispel Magic (3rd) and Remove Magic (3rd) target protections that debuffs in sections (1) and (2) target, but can hit multiple targets and success depends on the caster's level. They can also remove harmful status due to spells from friendly and hostile. The only exception is that these may be able to dispel the Globes of Invulnerability (4th and 6th).

    (5) Spell Shield (5th) protects against any debuffs in sections (2) and (3), but not in (1) and (4). Spell Thrust (3rd) is the lowest spell level counter for Spell Shield, and might be subject to dispel magic or remove magic as well.

    (6) Spell Immunity: Abjuration (5th) might protect against all debuffs in sections (2) and (3), and possibly in (4). Spell Immunity: Divination (5th, same spell) might protect against all debuffs in (1).

    (7) Spell protections include Minor Globe of Invulnerability (4th for up to 3rd) and Globe of Invulnerability (6th for up to 4th), which protect against single and multi target attacks but not against dispel I believe, and the Deflection spells (3rd and 6th for 4 and 10 spell levels), the Turning Spells (5th and 7th for 4 and 12 spell levels), and Spell Trap (9th for 30 levels). These are all a bit of a grey area for me that I would need to test. Deflection/Turning state they don't shield against AoEs, but Spell Trap doesn't state it (it states every spell is absorbed), and I'm not sure if this reflects the mechanics.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    What this all means is that

    (8) True Sight (6th) will break all illusions, and enable targetting.

    (9) Breach (5th) will break all protections for melee and ranged weapon attacks, and AoE spell attacks (with the exception possibly of Spell Trap and possibly Deflection/Turning prior to ToB).

    (10) Spells of section (3) are required in order to break protections for all direct spell attacks.

    (11) A 12th level mage will have all of the spells to be able to open any caster up completely for weapon attacks.
    Post edited by fighter_mage_thief on
  • CCarluNNCCarluNN Member Posts: 200
    edited August 2012
    I once thought it was just a complex form of rock-paper-scissors-bazooka. Enemy mage shields himself with rock, your mage tries to dispel it with paper, only to have it cut down by his scissors. Then your mage realises that rock beats scissors, so your mage casts the same rocky protection on himself and let the overpowered inquisitor Keldorn equipped with Carsomyr do the job.

    Not sure if this was the best way to sum up and simplify the whole dispelling system.
  • fighter_mage_thieffighter_mage_thief Member Posts: 262
    edited August 2012
    CCarluNN said:

    I once thought it was just a complex form of rock-paper-scissors. Enemy mage shields himself with rock, your mage tries to dispel it with paper, only to have it cut down by his scissors. Then your mage realises that rock beats scissors, so your mage casts the same protections on himself and let the overpowered inquisitor Keldorn equipped with Carsomyr do the job.

    Not sure if this is the best way to sum up and simplify the whole dispelling system.

    I'm pretty sure that Carsomyr will be ineffective against Protection from Magic Weapons (6th) and Absolute Immunity (9th), and so not dispel on strike, but the Inquisitor's Dispel Magic might be able to remove both buffs, I'm not sure. Also, while Carsomyr will overcome Absolute Immunity once it reaches +6, it will take some time to get there. Then again, I'm not saying much here I guess, considering these are not extremely frequent spells to see.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    edited August 2012
    fighter_mage_thief said:

    (11) A 12th level mage will have all of the spells to be able to open any caster up completely for weapon attacks.

    Not quite any caster. Liches and rakshasas are immune to breach in vanilla, so you need pierce shield for them.


    Edit: Or no, I was thinking of the Spell Revisions version of pierce shield, in vanilla it doesn't remove combat protections.
  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    edited August 2012
    For what it's worth, this might be a helpful link: http://www.forgottenwars.com/oogi/counters.htm

    Basically, it's True Sight, Breach, RRoR (or Secret Word, if you're lower level) and Lower Resistance (if needed). Works quite well.
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Inquisitors dispel magic does seem pretty game breaking. It basically goes through everything and dispels all combat protections, leaving every enemy in game naked against you. If spell shield would make you immune to dispel magic or at least cancel it once like rest of the spell attacks, it would give them a fighting chance.

    Looking at the changes done by SCS I+II, they make a huge lot of sense:
    - Make Protection from Normal Missiles affect magical projectiles
    - Allow Spellstrike to take down a Protection from Magic scroll
    - More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning
    - Antimagic attacks penetrate improved invisibility
    - Iron Skins behaves like Stoneskin (can be brought down by Breach)
    - Reduce the power of Inquisitors' Dispel Magic
    - Slightly reduce the power of Insect Plague spells (and the like) and let Fire Shields block them
    - Slightly increase the power of Mantle, Improved Mantle, and Absolute Immunity
    - Give True Sight the ability to prevent magical blindness

    And before somebody says this is not relevant in BG1, don't forget that the Black Pits will be starred by 15th level chars (or so I've heard).
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Indeed. Once you are a somewhat experienced player, the SCS mods seem very well-balanced. I believe several of those implementations came about to counter cheesy ways of disabling enemy casters, but they mostly make sense from a player's point of view as well.
  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    edited August 2012
    fighter_mage_thief said:

    A 12th level mage will have all of the spells to be able to open any caster up completely for weapon attacks.

    Unless his enemy caster has Spell Immunity: Abjuration and Spell Immunity: Divination

    @Bercon regarding Dispel in BGEE check out: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/602/tobex-25
  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Does Spell Immunity: Abjuration actually protect you from any of the spells I listed in the table? Dispel Magic or any of the rest like Secret Word or Pierce Shield? I know the divination works against True Sight but I don't know about dispel magics...
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