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TOB : how to be overpowered abusing a spell

MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
As the title say, i have made some experiments with chain contingency and...the result is cheese. So much cheese that it killed Gromnir and his two mages in a hit.

So much cheese that i would not use this anymore.

What did i do?

Chain contingency : if my mage get hit --> 3 x Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting against the enemy who hit my mage.

How to use it : simply run near a mob, then let you be hit and unleash armageddon on your foes.

BONUS : after this, my mage can cast the 3 Abi-Dazim that i locked in the chain contingency. Meaning that in a fight i can use 6 Abi-Dazim...just think about it.

First 3 Abi-Dazim in the Chain Contingency, then time stop --> cast 2 x Abi-Dazim + 1 Abi-Dazim after time stop ends.

------------------------------------------

Also, i add that i rest after i memorize the spells of the chain contingency : this way, after the contingency is used, i have still the 3 x Abi-Dazim ready to be used.


...yes, as i said it's not even funny. Never use this again... but i wonder : why did the programmers allowed us to do something like this?

Comments

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    First of all, no programmer can possibly predict all ways to break the game. Second of all, even if things like that are possible, you don't have to use them, if you think these are gamebreakers. Some people like things like that, some not.
    lunarJuliusBorisovBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    O_Bruce said:

    First of all, no programmer can possibly predict all ways to break the game. Second of all, even if things like that are possible, you don't have to use them, if you think these are gamebreakers. Some people like things like that, some not.

    Indeed, that's why i said that i will never use this. Well, at least it was a entertaining experiment.

    Yes, programmers can't predict all the ways to break the game. But allowing Abi-Dazim to be a possible spell casted in a Chain Contingency...it's almost asking for it.

    But i'm not criticizing the programmers. As you said : some players may like doing things like this.

    In my opinion this is breaking the game. And to tell the truth, i almost consider "cheating" using Abi-Dazim spell. This spell is too powerful.

    Finger of Death is my favourite spell. Deals damage and instant kills but only if you work hard before, lowering enough the magic resistance of the enemy (and maybe using greater malison).

    So yes, Abi-Dazim for me is cheating. Or at least, it would be nice if you are allowed to cast only 1 Abi-Dazim per battle.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Well, high lvl mages are supposed to be that powerful.

    It can be even more powerful. Take a sorcerer. He has precasted chain contingency:3x abi dalzim nearest enemy when enemy sighted. Has 6 horrid wiltings memorised after rest. Battle starts. 3 abi dalzims go. Immediately cast the chain contşngency again, it is broken and can be cast instantly. Load up 3x wiltings again. It will trigger again in the same or next round. You have 3 more wiltings (started with 6, used up 3 in second contingency)load up them again in a comtingency. Result is you do 9x20d8=180d8 damage to every enemy in the area. That's 180-1440, average of 810 damage to every one in approximately one round or two. Hey, they can still save vs spell for half damage. :-)
    jackjackJuliusBorisovwigglesgBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    lunar said:

    Well, high lvl mages are supposed to be that powerful.

    It can be even more powerful. Take a sorcerer. He has precasted chain contingency:3x abi dalzim nearest enemy when enemy sighted. Has 6 horrid wiltings memorised after rest. Battle starts. 3 abi dalzims go. Immediately cast the chain contşngency again, it is broken and can be cast instantly. Load up 3x wiltings again. It will trigger again in the same or next round. You have 3 more wiltings (started with 6, used up 3 in second contingency)load up them again in a comtingency. Result is you do 9x20d8=180d8 damage to every enemy in the area. That's 180-1440, average of 810 damage to every one in approximately one round or two. Hey, they can still save vs spell for half damage. :-)

    It seems that a sorcerer is better than poor naive Nalia. For now, she can memorize only 3 spells of level 8th.

    On a side note, i created this contingency thinking about the Kamikaze Kobolds of Firkraag Lair. As those little kobolds, Nalia run to the enemy in search of a hug.

    -----------------------------

    On another side note, yes the game mechanic is a bit broken here. I mean, you can create a chain contingency in the middle of a combat !

    I know that this is a game and what i'm going to say is almost pointless, but... we are talking about casting a 9th level spell (Chain contingency) that has to be tied with 3 level 8th spells (Abi-Dazim). This Should be complex enough to be something impossible to do in the middle of a battle. It should require to much time and concentration.

    lunarelminsterjackjackBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    You know, i never immagined that a sorcerer was so strong. I usually play or as a unarmed monk or as a druid shapeshifter (with my personal challenge : never revert to human. Playing only as wolfwere or great wolfwere).

    Instead of spelltrap i prefer restore my spells with Aerie. Being the mage with the most winsdom in my party, she usually summon a genie with wish or limited wish.

    And because i like to mess around, sometimes i call the genie even if i don't need it. Afterall, it's good summoning the mighty army of rabbits against Yaga-Sura giants
    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Masterteo When you get to BP2, you'll be glad you know that combo. There are some fights there where 9x ADHW in Chain Contingencies does nothing.

    Even in ToB for instance, Draconis, Abazigal's brown dragon son, is immune to acid and ADHW is acid-dmg as are all cloud spells. The vast numbers of magic immune enemies make it less OP, atleast you need to remove the resistances 1st, which takes a number of rounds. And elemental resistances are unremovable by any spells.
    BelgarathMTHBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    Yannir said:

    @Masterteo When you get to BP2, you'll be glad you know that combo. There are some fights there where 9x ADHW in Chain Contingencies does nothing.

    Even in ToB for instance, Draconis, Abazigal's brown dragon son, is immune to acid and ADHW is acid-dmg as are all cloud spells. The vast numbers of magic immune enemies make it less OP, atleast you need to remove the resistances 1st, which takes a number of rounds. And elemental resistances are unremovable by any spells.

    Yes, i did not know that Abi-Dazim was acid in damage, but i noticed that it did almost nothing to Draconis and his father. ( Not to mention that Abazigal in human form is dangerous enough).

    And Abazigal lair is still the hardest place of TOB in my opinion.

    And Draconis is absolutely the hardest dragon in all BG2 and TOB.

    But i have nothing to fear in this gameplay, my monk should have a good THACO. And i have 3 clerics with 7 heal spells and such.

    My party is made for long, tiring battle.
    Blackraven
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    I can think of a few cases where this might not work.

    For one, any dragon who has not had its resistance lowered could resist most or all of the damage.

    Any enemy mage with spell turning might throw some or all of it back against you. There are some other mage spell defenses that can ruin your day if you are counting on horrid wilting, as well.

    In SCS, many enemies will have spell immunity: necromancy cast to counter exactly this strategy.

    Against Melissan, she can take all that damage, and quite possibly withstand it and kick your butt anyway, or if she doesn't, she'll just teleport herself to her next phase of the Throne. And more likely, you will have used up your trump card against all her elder orbs or other nasty summoned fodder. That girl is so powerful, she's even immune to time stop.

    If you have a chain contingency and three 8th level spell slots to put into it, you are likely near the end of the game anyway, unless you are playing solo, which kind of breaks the game by definition, since it was created as a party game.
    JuliusBorisovBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    How can Abi-Dazim spell turned? Isn't it a area effect spell, meaning that it ignore the spell turn spell effect?

    And no, i have only killed Gromnir so far. Simply Nalia is level 19 and i gave her the extra 8th slot in ability after level up.

    SCS is something i have yet to try. Now as now, i am beating the game on core rules a few times.

    If i will ever beat the game with the hardest difficulty i will try SCS. But not before that.

    SCS is hard from what i've heard, and i need to improve a bit.
    TJ_Hooker
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited January 2015
    Yannir said:

    [...] ADHW is acid-dmg as are all cloud spells [...]

    ADHW does magic damage. Cloudkill does poison damage. The only cloud spell I can think of off the top of my head that does acid damage is Death Fog.
    lunarBlackravenAHF
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited January 2015
    TJ_Hooker said:

    Yannir said:

    [...] ADHW is acid-dmg as are all cloud spells [...]

    ADHW does magic damage. Cloudkill does poison damage. The only cloud spell I can think of off the top of my head that does acid damage is Death Fog.
    True, abdhw does pure magic damage, which only kuo toa resist naturally, IIRC. In ee, you can see the damage type from combat log's color:fire damage has red letters, acid has greenish and amgic damage has yellow-orangish color, same with magic missile, skull trap and wilting.

    Spell turning is ineffective against horrid wilting. However, protection from magic energy (6th lvl spell) will make the target immune to magical damage, hence immune to wilting damage. Scs mages use it often so you will need to breach them. But to breach them you will need to strip their magical protections, spell deflection, turning, etc as in scs, breach is affected by them. It becomes a strategic battle of wits with enemy mages. I strongly recommend scs to any fan of the game, I can not play the game without it, once saw how smart enemies becomes almost as smart as an enemy human player, I can not come back to vanilla gameplay.

  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    lunar said:

    TJ_Hooker said:

    Yannir said:

    [...] ADHW is acid-dmg as are all cloud spells [...]

    ADHW does magic damage. Cloudkill does poison damage. The only cloud spell I can think of off the top of my head that does acid damage is Death Fog.
    True, abdhw does pure magic damage, which only kuo toa resist naturally, IIRC. In ee, you can see the damage type from combat log's color:fire damage has red letters, acid has greenish and amgic damage has yellow-orangish color, same with magic missile, skull trap and wilting.

    Spell turning is ineffective against horrid wilting. However, protection from magic energy (6th lvl spell) will make the target immune to magical damage, hence immune to wilting damage. Scs mages use it often so you will need to breach them. But to breach them you will need to strip their magical protections, spell deflection, turning, etc as in scs, breach is affected by them. It becomes a strategic battle of wits with enemy mages. I strongly recommend scs to any fan of the game, I can not play the game without it, once saw how smart enemies becomes almost as smart as an enemy human player, I can not come back to vanilla gameplay.

    That's nice. I don't have EE, so i see all the damage in white.

    SCS sounds interesting , i have never used breach in the game : never needed this spell.

    jackjackBlackraven
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    You want sick? You can achieve mostly the same effect using Skull Trap, which is only a 3rd level spell. It can decimate almost any foe in the BP2 arenas. Nearly as much damage as Horrid Wilting, but only uses a 3rd level slot and has a shorter casting time, with the bonus that you can use it in sequencers and triggers. Which means, you can cast more of them.
    jackjackBlackraven
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    3x Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting is the tip of the iceberg, and a very age-old combo as well. Chain Contingencies outside of this are best known for their defensive combos. PfMW + Stone Skin + Spell Immunity: Abjuration, for example, will put a super heavy protection on the caster AND prevent themselves from getting Breached or hit with Dispel Magic.

    Of course other protection removal spells that aren't abjuration would work on you in this state, but the chances aren't high that they'll hit you with any of these outside of certain mobs and those under AI mods like SCS (I presume)
    jackjack
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    In pnp, is Abi Dhalzim's Horrid(...) supposed to hurt only enemies?
  • dibdib Member Posts: 384
    edited January 2015
    What's really game breaking is that Chain Contingency (like other contingencies) is cast instantly even though it's supposed to have a long casting time and you can cast it mid-battle. It should at least be changed so that it can not be cast while in a battle imo.
    FinneousPJ
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460

    You want sick? You can achieve mostly the same effect using Skull Trap, which is only a 3rd level spell. It can decimate almost any foe in the BP2 arenas. Nearly as much damage as Horrid Wilting, but only uses a 3rd level slot and has a shorter casting time, with the bonus that you can use it in sequencers and triggers. Which means, you can cast more of them.

    Skull trap can not touch liches, rakshasas, certain bosses and any mage with globe of invulnerability. Horrid wilting decimates them nicely.
    jackjackBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    lunar said:

    You want sick? You can achieve mostly the same effect using Skull Trap, which is only a 3rd level spell. It can decimate almost any foe in the BP2 arenas. Nearly as much damage as Horrid Wilting, but only uses a 3rd level slot and has a shorter casting time, with the bonus that you can use it in sequencers and triggers. Which means, you can cast more of them.

    Skull trap can not touch liches, rakshasas, certain bosses and any mage with globe of invulnerability. Horrid wilting decimates them nicely.
    Well, even good old Abi-Dazim can't always win. 30 minutes ago i was with Nalia in the Maze level of the watcher keep.

    It took me 3-4 Abi-Dazim to understand that some demons simply laught in your face if you use that spell.

    jackjackBelgarathMTH
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited January 2015
    Well demons have high magic resistance so they have a percent chance of being totally unaffected by horrid wilting. If a greater demon has %75 magic resistance, you only have %25 chance to hit it with a horrid wilting. But if it hits it will do normal damage. (Since they generally do not have any magic DAMAGE resistance.)

    If you cast 3x lower resistance via trigger beforehand, they are toast.
    jackjackBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    i know, but if there are 3-4 running to Nalia, she won't be able to lower the resistance of all of them.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    edited January 2015
    Masterteo said:

    i know, but if there are 3-4 running to Nalia, she won't be able to lower the resistance of all of them.

    You should stall them via protection from magic weapons+stoneskin+mirror image, and a spell protection as well. (Demons can throw fireballs and symbol spells) While you lower their resistance. Or have resilient summon like mordy sword to soak up their attacks. Or have other party members engage them in melee. Or use a time stop. Or use an imprisonment spell it ignores mr. Or improved haste a summoned planetar and watch her put all of them to the sword.

    There are many solutions for a high level arch-mage.
    jackjackBlackraven
  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    edited January 2015
    Sure. If i'm lazy a solution is having Nalia running around, luring the demons. In the meantime, for Viconia Anomen and Aerie is Finger of Death time. I know, monsters that are unaffected by Abi-Dazim won't die against Finger if i did not lower resistance before. But finger hurts, and i have many Fingers available. ( But if they have magic resistance probably also the damage would be assorbed. Oh well, Minsc, Boo and my monk will take care of the problem. Anomen too, with his flail of ages)

    Even if sometimes it fires back. Like one time that i forgot that a mage had probably spell turning active.
    Long story short, for a moment Nalia was running away, chased by her Finger of Death.
    lunarBlackraven
  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    There is so many ways to break the game as a level arcane caster...

    A few examples
    With the robe of vecna skull trap is an instant cast. With improve alacrity and autopause when spell cast can unleash 6 of them instantly. This will kill anything in the game (cast 3 instant lower resist before if necessary)

    Shapeshifting : mind flayer + timestop kills anything in 1 round
    lunarBlackraven
  • SymphonyofSwordsSymphonyofSwords Member Posts: 40
    edited January 2015
    As far as I recall, Chain Contingency does not count towards your one spell per round limit. Thus you are able to cast 7 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting in one round.

    It is a really old trick, though.
    jackjack
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    Correct, since casting the Contigency is what counts as the spell per round. When it fires, you're not actually casting it again.
  • SharguildSharguild Member Posts: 186
    I watched an interesting SCS Insane level fight on YouTube today. The evil mage had a spell book unheard of by us conventional players, "Melanthion".
    It was a 35 minute fight and there were many times where absolutely NOTHING could be done to hurt this mage, sit back and enjoy the hurt.
    The player was not a newbie by any stretch but you could feel the frustration as they cycled through spell breaker after breaker only to see the evil mages' spells renewed. In addition, The evil mage used spell strike about a dozen times on the group.
    The area was CONSTANTLY, without letup, deluged by meteor storm and at one time I counted 7 Mord Magic Swords in play by enemy mage. 4 Dark Planetars in succession were called up, the evil Mage had a couple of protections that don't exist in normal game it seems but the unnerving fact was that even the conventional protections were renewed constantly, there was hardly ever an instant when a globe did not surround the evil mage.
    It basically came down to "survive and wait him out". Even at this level, after 35 minutes you eventually run out of spells, then they beat him to death.
    As it was, two level 17 dual classed pcs out of six got "chunked" as in, not able to be resurrected and two died that could be resurrected.
    Just gives an indication of how far, too far imho, this game can be taken.
    wubbleBlackravenjackjack
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    "spell that allowed yoı to shapechange into a red dragon"
    This is just borrowed from Neverwinter Nights where all mages CAN Shapechange into Red Dragons, and other fun forms. It's pretty fun btw. :smiley:
    wubble
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