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Overpowered kits

Hello friends,

I'm planning a playthrough of IWD:EE but I would like to preserve the challenge levels so I was hoping maybe some of you guys could tell me which of the kits are generally considered to be overpowered. A lot of what made IWD fun was the difficulty of getting through those dungeons so I don't want a party that will make playing a complete cakewalk.

Cheers!

BB

Comments

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    edited December 2014
    Avoid sorcerer, skald, avenger, Dwarven defender, archer.

    Don't dual class.

    I'd suggest looking for a way of playing with insane spawns but core xp and damage. I'd avoid reloading. I'd refrain from touching the +/- buttons when rolling stats. I'd turn off "max hp on level up".

    Ymmv :)

    Edit: in my strict no-reload run with the above rules I purposefully made my only arcane a Wild Mage to really create some risk when using arcane spells. Arcane spells are severely OP when you get down to it.

    JLeeShikaoBelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    MrGoodkat said:

    I don't know... I think people are seriously overdoing it with the whole "make the game a challenge" thing.

    Sure, it's not fun if it's a cakewalk but *the* one thing that makes the game easy is if you know it inside out imho. You can play with a party full of pure class thieves but if you know the game well enough it's not going to be very difficult unless you implement more and more self-imposed rules to the point where it becomes ridiculous.

    To make a long story short, the only thing I would avoid are the usual suspects of OP multi/dual class characters like Fighter/Mage, Berserker/Cleric, Kensai/Mage, etc. etc. *Maybe* don't pick an Archer either because it's arguably the strongest single class character in the game.

    Apart from that if this is your first run and you play with a single-class only party you should be absolutely fine and enjoy the game. You can always turn up the difficulty or even turn on HoF mode if you feel that it's much too easy.

    I disagree. Sorcerer is OP because it circumvents the very intentional scroll scarcity in the game. Avenger is OP because it gets some of the best wizard spells.

    Dwarven Defender and Avenger can both get 100% damage immunity or greater which is my concern with them.

    JLeeShikaoBelgarathMTHchickenhed
  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    edited December 2014
    @Wowo: I'm sure you mean well, but I think you're missing the point here. There are things that can be abused, sure, but that all depends on your knowledge of the game and willingness to do so.

    If you're just playing the game a Sorcerer or Avenger is not going to be OP to the point that it suddenly gets easy without putting any effort into it.

    As a power-gamer with countless playthroughs of every D&D title and his mother one can easily lose track of such things, myself included.

    There are actually people who play Icewind Dale for the first time on 'Core' and - pardon my French - find it hard as fuck. For those people the game doesn't become trivial all of a sudden just because they have an Avenger on their team.

    Dexterthe_spyderSionIV
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: I'm sure you mean well, but I think you're missing the point here. There are things that can be abused, sure, but that all depends on your knowledge of the game and willingness to do so.

    If you're just playing the game a Sorcerer or Avenger is not going to be OP to the point that it suddenly gets easy without putting any effort into it.

    As a power-gamer with countless playthroughs of every D&D title and his mother one can easily lose track of such things, myself included.

    There are actually people who play Icewind Dale for the first time on 'Core' and - pardon my French - find it hard as fuck. For those people the game doesn't become trivial all of a sudden just because they have an Avenger on their team.

    The OP asked what kits are considered overpowered so I answered his query.

    You seem to be saying that yes, the kits may be overpowered but that's okay?

  • JLeeJLee Member Posts: 648
    edited December 2014
    If you intentionally gimp yourself every kit is in bounds, but I believe what Wowo is saying, and I think you'll agree, is that if you play them as intended, there are some kits that have a distinct advantage. IWD was never intended to have sorcerers along. They completely circumvent any balance that the arcane casters were meant to have.

    Sure you could follow this guide and that'd be just fine ;)

    Post edited by JLee on
    ShikaoBelgarathMTHPeckerJuliusBorisov
  • GamingFreakGamingFreak Member Posts: 639
    I would boldly state that no kit is overpowered in IWDEE. Every kit has its strengths and flaws, and even some of the considerably "worst" kits have good points to them :)

    dockaboomski
  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    @Wowo: No, what I'm saying is that certain kits *can* be overpowered in the right hands. But if someone has to ask what kits are OP in the first place, chances are he doesn't need to worry about it.

    AureolDexterthe_spyderSionIV
  • AureolAureol Member Posts: 53
    edited December 2014
    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: No, what I'm saying is that certain kits *can* be overpowered in the right hands. But if someone has to ask what kits are OP in the first place, chances are he doesn't need to worry about it.

    I agree with MrGoodkat; there are definitely OP classes/kits, but if the OP has to ask which ones are OP, odds are no class or kit would be OP in his/her hands.

    @BigBottom‌, I really wouldn't worry. If you don't look too hard into character-building guides or anything of the sort, you probably won't have that problem. However, if this really is a concern, doing what most of the others have said would suffice.

    I myself would personally recommend playing as whatever class you want, then just up the difficulty if it is too easy. I find it quite annoying trying to play a character I don't care for, all because it's not OP.

    MrGoodkatthe_spyder
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Aureol said:

    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: No, what I'm saying is that certain kits *can* be overpowered in the right hands. But if someone has to ask what kits are OP in the first place, chances are he doesn't need to worry about it.

    I agree with MrGoodkat; there are definitely OP classes/kits, but if the OP has to ask which ones are OP, odds are no class or kit would be OP in his/her hands.

    @BigBottom‌, I really wouldn't worry. If you don't look too hard into character-building guides or anything of the sort, you probably won't have that problem. However, if this really is a concern, doing what most of the others have said would suffice.

    I myself would personally recommend playing as whatever class you want, then just up the difficulty if it is too easy. I find it quite annoying trying to play a character I don't care for, all because it's not OP.
    Upping the difficulty actually makes the game easier courtesy of the extra xp.

    Anyone who rolls with an avenger or Dwarven defender can quickly recognise the possibility to get 100% or better damage resistance if you find certain items.

    Anyone who casts a confusion spell will quickly realise that chaos will be an excellent investment (which Avengers and Sorcerers can get way before other characters).

    Anyone who has web can see the synergy with spider form (or fom).

    I think your underestimating the intelligence of new players if you don't think that they will recognise the various synergies that the new kits introduced that can easily trivialise big portions of the game.

    Again, the OP wanted to know which kits to avoid for a challenging play through and the fact that he asked the question is enough to indicate that there's enough of a reason to tell him which kits to avoid, don't you think?

    JLee
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    edited December 2014
    If you've never played Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale before, you probably don't need to worry about picking things that are too powerful. Instead you should worry about accidentally picking something that is really terrible, not that the game couldn't be beaten with any party but as a new player you're not going to be able to coax optimum ability from any random character. Indeed, many of the most powerful options are only powerful if you already know what you're doing (I.E. Sorcerors).

    Now, if you're really worried about breaking your party in the too powerful direction I'd avoid Bard Kits, Sorcerers, and Wild Mages.

    elminsterMusignyMrGoodkatjackjack
  • SeldarSeldar Member Posts: 431
    don't max your stats, and it would be alot more difficult. Any kit can be good if you have 18 everywhere, use random roll and try to have only one stats at high/very high, if you want a fighter, give him 18 strenght but only 13 or 14 in cons, same for dex...

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Seldar said:

    don't max your stats, and it would be alot more difficult. Any kit can be good if you have 18 everywhere, use random roll and try to have only one stats at high/very high, if you want a fighter, give him 18 strenght but only 13 or 14 in cons, same for dex...

    It's certainly made a massive difference to the challenge level when I decided that my tank will have good dex and con but only on a random roll, she ended up with 13 or 14 strength or something (but 16-17 dex and con).

    jackjack
  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    edited December 2014
    @Wowo: Imho it's a common misconception that upping the difficulty actually makes the game easier. Iirc it was ironically started by someone who plays exclusively on 'Core'. You get more XP on 'Insane', but Monster spawns are also heavily increased. (as far as quadrupled) It also takes a while till you get to the various ways of ignoring damage completely and up until that point *everything* can kill you unlike 'Core' where you just click attack and everything dies. CARE: This was an intentional exaggeration not to be taken literally. That being said I think you could literally make a party of 4-6 Warrior classes, maybe throw in a F/C or F/D for healing and just A-Click through the game.

    Btw. and this is important: I intentionally do not list certain spells, abilities, etc. here because that's exactly what makes people realize how OP some stuff can be. Maybe I underestimate new players, but maybe you are also forgetting why you know the things you know and where you got them from. When you've read something somewhere 10 years ago and have been using it ever since it becomes second nature and you don't even think about whether it was actually your own idea/conclusion or not. It usually takes multiple runs until you know all the OP stuff because people tend to acquire a certain playing style that works for them and then stick to it.

    Last but not least I want to clarify that this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion of 'Insane' vs 'Core' difficulty, but feel free to PM me if you want one. I was merely pointing out that the matter is highly disputed and their is little factual evidence for one side or the other. It's all a matter of playing style, party setup, add-on order, knowledge, etc. etc.
    CaptRory said:

    If you've never played Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale before, you probably don't need to worry about picking things that are too powerful. Instead you should worry about accidentally picking something that is really terrible, not that the game couldn't be beaten with any party but as a new player you're not going to be able to coax optimum ability from any random character. Indeed, many of the most powerful options are only powerful if you already know what you're doing (I.E. Sorcerors).

    Up until this point I wholeheartedly agree.

    kensai
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: Imho it's a common misconception that upping the difficulty actually makes the game easier. Iirc it was ironically started by someone who plays exclusively on 'Core'. You get more XP on 'Insane', but Monster spawns are also heavily increased. (as far as quadrupled) It also takes a while till you get to the various ways of ignoring damage completely and up until that point *everything* can kill you unlike 'Core' where you just click attack and everything dies. CARE: This was an intentional exaggeration not to be taken literally. That being said I think you could literally make a party of 4-6 Warrior classes, maybe throw in a F/C or F/D for healing and just A-Click through the game.

    Btw. and this is important: I intentionally do not list certain spells, abilities, etc. here because that's exactly what makes people realize how OP some stuff can be. Maybe I underestimate new players, but maybe you are also forgetting why you know the things you know and where you got them from. When you've read something somewhere 10 years ago and have been using it ever since it becomes second nature and you don't even think about whether it was actually your own idea/conclusion or not. It usually takes multiple runs until you know all the OP stuff because people tend to acquire a certain playing style that works for them and then stick to it.

    Last but not least I want to clarify that this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion of 'Insane' vs 'Core' difficulty, but feel free to PM me if you want one. I was merely pointing out that the matter is highly disputed and their is little factual evidence for one side or the other. It's all a matter of playing style, party setup, add-on order, knowledge, etc. etc.

    CaptRory said:

    If you've never played Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale before, you probably don't need to worry about picking things that are too powerful. Instead you should worry about accidentally picking something that is really terrible, not that the game couldn't be beaten with any party but as a new player you're not going to be able to coax optimum ability from any random character. Indeed, many of the most powerful options are only powerful if you already know what you're doing (I.E. Sorcerors).

    Up until this point I wholeheartedly agree.
    I don't think that it's very good debating etiquette to dispute a point and then say that the matter is closed in this forum.

    The xp increase on insane results in higher character levels which means more powers and new abilities. It's only mages who miss out on the full benefit until you have access to HoW. The additional damage is only relevant if you are getting hit which is simple to avoid through numerous strategies (even a new player can figure out how to kite). With max HP rolls and the first few easy quests out of the way it becomes increasingly easy once you gain a few levels.

    Anyway, I still prefer my original answer that specifies a few kits that have specific abilities that can trivialise the game compared to your answer that assumes that the OP isn't clever enough to figure out that physical resistance can be stacked or that some spell choices are better than others.

  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    edited December 2014
    @Wowo: When did I say the matter was closed? I openly acknowledged that there are multiple opinions on the subject of 'Insane' vs 'Core' never claiming that mine was a universal truth. What I meant to say was now that OP knows both sides of the story he can make up his own mind. Do you feel the need to keep arguing your point until everyone agrees with you? Because that's not going to happen.

    Please don't twist my words around. I never said or indicated that OP wasn't clever enough to figure certain things out. Just try to remember your first run of a D&D 2nd edition game is all I'm saying. Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt the game being too easy was an issue for you back then. Even if you do find things that are very strong it's actually fun when you do it the first time. =)

    What trivializes the game is not one or two overpowered kits, it's your knowledge of the game and the engine *combined* with things that are too strong.

    So yeah... I also prefer my original answer that OP shouldn't worry about what is overpowered and just enjoy the game.

    kensaijackjack
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: Imho it's a common misconception that upping the difficulty actually makes the game easier. Iirc it was ironically started by someone who plays exclusively on 'Core'. You get more XP on 'Insane', but Monster spawns are also heavily increased. (as far as quadrupled) It also takes a while till you get to the various ways of ignoring damage completely and up until that point *everything* can kill you unlike 'Core' where you just click attack and everything dies. CARE: This was an intentional exaggeration not to be taken literally. That being said I think you could literally make a party of 4-6 Warrior classes, maybe throw in a F/C or F/D for healing and just A-Click through the game.

    Btw. and this is important: I intentionally do not list certain spells, abilities, etc. here because that's exactly what makes people realize how OP some stuff can be. Maybe I underestimate new players, but maybe you are also forgetting why you know the things you know and where you got them from. When you've read something somewhere 10 years ago and have been using it ever since it becomes second nature and you don't even think about whether it was actually your own idea/conclusion or not. It usually takes multiple runs until you know all the OP stuff because people tend to acquire a certain playing style that works for them and then stick to it.

    Last but not least I want to clarify that this isn't the place for an in-depth discussion of 'Insane' vs 'Core' difficulty, but feel free to PM me if you want one. I was merely pointing out that the matter is highly disputed and their is little factual evidence for one side or the other. It's all a matter of playing style, party setup, add-on order, knowledge, etc. etc.

    CaptRory said:

    If you've never played Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale before, you probably don't need to worry about picking things that are too powerful. Instead you should worry about accidentally picking something that is really terrible, not that the game couldn't be beaten with any party but as a new player you're not going to be able to coax optimum ability from any random character. Indeed, many of the most powerful options are only powerful if you already know what you're doing (I.E. Sorcerors).

    Up until this point I wholeheartedly agree.
    Sorcerers can't swap magic out. If you pick terrible spells you're stuck with them. Even great spells can be terrible a few levels later. "Wow! Sleep is amazing!" then you run into enemies that are immune due to their nature or because they have too many HD and are stuck with a spells that doesn't work anymore.

  • MrGoodkatMrGoodkat Member Posts: 167
    @CaptRory: Uhm.. I meant I agree up until that point *including* that point ;D I just don't agree with that very last part about staying away from Bard kits, Wild Mages, etc.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    MrGoodkat said:

    @Wowo: When did I say the matter was closed? I openly acknowledged that there are multiple opinions on the subject of 'Insane' vs 'Core' never claiming that mine was a universal truth. What I meant to say was now that OP knows both sides of the story he can make up his own mind. Do you feel the need to keep arguing your point until everyone agrees with you? Because that's not going to happen.

    Please don't twist my words around. I never said or indicated that OP wasn't clever enough to figure certain things out. Just try to remember your first run of a D&D 2nd edition game is all I'm saying. Correct me if I'm wrong but I doubt the game being too easy was an issue for you back then. Even if you do find things that are very strong it's actually fun when you do it the first time. =)

    What trivializes the game is not one or two overpowered kits, it's your knowledge of the game and the engine *combined* with things that are too strong.

    So yeah... I also prefer my original answer that OP shouldn't worry about what is overpowered and just enjoy the game.

    It's not about agreeing. It's about providing enough information for people to make up their own minds.

    The OP is worried, worried enough to make a thread, there are kits that meet the criteria specified, ergo the reasonable response seems to be to provide the facts.

    The OP also specified that he has played IWD before and I'd inference BG series too, so not a stranger to IE games and probably already has a reasonable skill set in regards to trivialising the game.

  • amk320amk320 Member Posts: 15
    edited December 2014
    Having rerolled about a thousand times now (65 hours logged, still haven't finished chapter 2...) here's my two cents:

    The single best ways to up the difficulty I've found is to keep your stats realistic and randomize HP at level up.

    I went from:

    Dwarven Defender
    Berserker 7 => Cleric
    Fighter 7 => Mage
    Avenger
    Fighter/Thief
    Bard

    ... all with min-maxed stats, and three of the characters exceeding weapon specialization... to:

    Barbarian
    Priest of Lathander
    Assassin
    Totemic Druid
    Bard
    Dragon Disciple

    ... and only a couple of the characters have maxed stats. Only the Barbarian has 18 dexterity. And with random HP rolls, the half-orc assassin with a superfluous 19 constitution has the highest HP in the party. (and the best melee THACO, as the only one with 19 strength and the assassin's +1 bonus...) If it keeps up like this, I'm going to have an assassin for a tank...

    So yeah, if you want to make it hard, drop your stats and randomize your health. I find I actually have to cast spells and use potions this way. (Unlike with the first party, which was far too easy...) I'd say it matters less which kits you're taking if you're doing both of those things. (Though obviously some kits are too powerful. I avoid archers like the plague if I want a challenge. Probably a good idea to avoid dual classes, DDs, etc. too as the above posters mentioned.)

    You could also use less popular weapons. I have my assassin using clubs.

    BelgarathMTHVallmyrjackjack
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    I completed a full Insane playthrough, and I confirm that, once you finish the Dragon's eye, the game is far too easy (I killed Icasaracht in a blink of an eye).
    Just for the record, every party member ended with 6.200.000 xp, so I gained more than 37.000.000 xp.

    FinneousPJPeckerjackjack
  • ProteusProteus Member Posts: 40
    Stay away from Archer. THAC0 lower than your Fighter's AC is just plain stupid.

  • BigBottomBigBottom Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the comments guys...I'll stay away from the mentioned kits/classes and possibly do the random HP thing!

    jackjackJuliusBorisov
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,867
    edited January 2015
    One of the easiest ways to vastly improve difficulty is to simply not manipulate your stats. Roll once, take it as is, and move on (and only rest in inns and only when fatigued also helps a lot to improve challenge). Then once in game work out how you can work around your short-comings by using the resources you have and what resources you receive. Unlike BG, IWD's randomized items helps immensely with impacting how much your foreknowledge can affect your playthroughs, though it's linearity also hinders it somewhat as a result since there's still only 1 real path to take.

    And simply don't use any kits (specialist mages are ok, since they aren't actually kits, that's just how the game implemented them). Excluding the Wild Mage (which is correctly implemented), they're pretty much all terribly adapted in general. Most are overpowered, or under-penalized, or both compared to what they should have, or gimped more then they should be.

    Though I would avoid sorcerers. You could maybe get by letting the game randomly choose spells for you at each level, but it was designed with mages/bards in mind for your arcane needs.

    Reticent
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I'd lean more towards @MrGoodKat and their philosophy here. I've played BG and IWD more times than I can count, but it is still never a 'cakewalk' for me. I am the first to admit that I am not a super player and so in my hands, playing a Sorcerer merely because they are a Sorcerer, would not break the game or make it easier.

    If I read the OP's question properly, yes there are classes that, in the right hands and with the right stuff, can break the game. BUT, picking any class on the very basis of the class itself, isn't going to ruin the game. You have to KNOW what you are doing and why that class/race/ability score MAKES the game easier.

    Someone like @Belgarath might find the game a cake walk with gimped characters. You could optimize an entire party of OP classes and let me play and I'd still have problems. So the classes by themselves, sans knowledge of very specific reasons why they are OP, will not make the game ridiculously easy, at least not in my view.

    elminster
  • JurisJuris Member Posts: 113
    I'm quite enjoying my limited reload non-min maxed playthrough. I chose characters without +/- their stats. Of course I rolled until they were all in the high 80's and/or low 90's - but ended up with a Fi/Ma with a Wis of 17 and a dual Berserker/Cleric with a Con of only 14. It makes the game much more enjoyable when you actually have a use for Potions of Fortitude and the strength spell.
    Basically what I'm saying is the problem is min/maxing not the actual kits.

    jackjack
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