Min/max party composition for BGII/ToB in a SCS environment? *Spoilers*
SpoCk0nd0pe
Member Posts: 13
What do you think is the most powerful party possible for a good/evil party and why?
My take is:
Good:
Keldorn, Imoen, Anomen, Minsc, Aerie
PC: Sorcerer or Wildmage
I'd probably replace Aerie with Sarevok in ToB (make him CG), but maybe it's better to replace Minsc.
Imho the good characters are more difficult to pick then the evil ones (and less powerful except for Keldorn). Keldorn and Imoen are quite self explaining, since there isn't a powerful good aligned wizard in the game a wizard PC makes most sense imho. Beyond that I think going for the all around most damaging characters is the way to go. I never tried Valygar, so I cannot tell how useful he really is. I found Aerie and Jaheira to be kind of underwhelming in ToB and I'd much rather have a Berserker then Minsc.
Evil:
Korgan, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn, Hexxat
PC: I'm not so sure here, I'm leaning towards Wizard Slayer/Thief. This would make the PC rather low powered during much of SoA but allows to replace Hexxat with Sarevok in ToB. The lack of a second mage could hurt though. But mages are the most powerful foes in SCS so I think Wizard Slayer isn't the worst pick. The alternative would probably be Kensai/Mage. I generally think melee is the way to go because you hit 21 strength without items (+2 in hell+1 from machine of lum, +1 if you start with BG I).
Since there are only 6 evil characters the weakest has to go once you meet Sarevok. Hexxat would be my first pick because a plain thief just cannot compete with the other characters at higher levels, even with the nice immunities. The stats are not crucial either, ac becomes less important as the game progresses and you find more then enough strength boosting items.
My take is:
Good:
Keldorn, Imoen, Anomen, Minsc, Aerie
PC: Sorcerer or Wildmage
I'd probably replace Aerie with Sarevok in ToB (make him CG), but maybe it's better to replace Minsc.
Imho the good characters are more difficult to pick then the evil ones (and less powerful except for Keldorn). Keldorn and Imoen are quite self explaining, since there isn't a powerful good aligned wizard in the game a wizard PC makes most sense imho. Beyond that I think going for the all around most damaging characters is the way to go. I never tried Valygar, so I cannot tell how useful he really is. I found Aerie and Jaheira to be kind of underwhelming in ToB and I'd much rather have a Berserker then Minsc.
Evil:
Korgan, Edwin, Viconia, Dorn, Hexxat
PC: I'm not so sure here, I'm leaning towards Wizard Slayer/Thief. This would make the PC rather low powered during much of SoA but allows to replace Hexxat with Sarevok in ToB. The lack of a second mage could hurt though. But mages are the most powerful foes in SCS so I think Wizard Slayer isn't the worst pick. The alternative would probably be Kensai/Mage. I generally think melee is the way to go because you hit 21 strength without items (+2 in hell+1 from machine of lum, +1 if you start with BG I).
Since there are only 6 evil characters the weakest has to go once you meet Sarevok. Hexxat would be my first pick because a plain thief just cannot compete with the other characters at higher levels, even with the nice immunities. The stats are not crucial either, ac becomes less important as the game progresses and you find more then enough strength boosting items.
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For the good party I'd think:
Keldorn
Mazzy
Jan
Sarevok
As the first 4. PC and last choice are tricky. Need a good divine and a good pure arcane for the last 2 slots. Ideas welcome, I'd maybe go with Cernd and a Wild Mage PC except for missing out on raise dead.
Of course, that's mostly dealing with custom parties. When it comes to the game NPCs, there are some issues you need to consider for the composition, such as party conflicts etc. (no Keldorn + Viconia for example).
Generally speaking, the best NPCs are probably Keldorn, Edwin, Viconia, and Sarevok (though he is a very late addition). Aerie and Jan are also pretty decent, and the rest are not TOO far behind (except Cernd, nobody likes Cernd).
I don't particularly like clerics for BG2. They're useful, sure, but the game is not very tanky and there aren't that many buffs that are worthwhile, particularly considering how powerful mages are. SCS only compounds this by adding even more arcane trouble, dispels for your buffs, and nerfs to cheese like TS+Harm (which was Aerie's signature move, really).
Most importantly of course, if you're min/maxing then it's all about damage - doing as much of it as you can on the one hand, and actually getting it through on the other. For the latter, you need dispels and protection removal first and foremost. SCS is loaded with casters hiding under layers upon layers of protective spells, and you need to be able to deal with that. An Inquisitor is one very good way (arguably too good...), but you also need some arcane casters to deal with things like SI:Abjuration and the likes. Arcane casters however suffer from lower damage output (outside of AoE) so you want as many as possible to be in combination with Fighter. That is a bit difficult when going with the game NPCs, because you can dual so few of them, and less even at convenient levels (like Sarevok, who would be a KICKASS F->M if only you got him earlier...).
So, it is pretty much a given that you have to stray from the theoretical optimum when using game NPCs, but that's no big deal. I think that any min/max party would probably be have to centered around Keldorn, though; while you could make your PC the Inquisitor, I think that the lack of properly dual-able NPCs and Keldorn's quite acceptable stats make a Keldorn + dual PC combo better than Inqu PC + X. What dual, you ask? Quite easily Kensai 9 -> Mage. While that combination has been equally revered and derided over time, I am still convinced it is the best choice. Yes, a F/M dual has things going for it as well, but I still believe it's not better for 90% of the game, making it overall worse than K->M (in the average scenario anyway; there are setups where this does not hold true). That covers the most important bases of a SCS party, dispels, mage spells, and damage output. Now to refine it even further!
Sarevok is an obvious choice, but a very late addition to the party. You can probably game around that, too; the optimal party size, I found, is something around 4-5, giving the best balance of extra damage and XP distribution. Since XP is most relevant at early game, why don't we start with 4, and then add S-dawg once we get to him? We have a K->M and an Inquisitor, so we probably want another mage (did I mention mages are really really good in BG2?). Now there are two possible choices I can see: either Edwin, sacrificing convenient damage output for more spells; or Haer'Dalis, cutting back a bit on the spells and emulating a F/M of sorts with his Blade kit. I think it's very hard to decide on this objectively. Personally I prefer Haer'Dalis simply because of the convenience, not having to micro spells all the time etc. His output is quite acceptable with things like Tenser's Transformation, and he can use most of the relevant spells (i.e. dispels and Improved Haste). That leaves the fourth spot to another damage dealer, and it's a difficult choice. Korgan is a possibility, as is Mazzy; but pure fighters can be a bit one-dimensional. Rasaad is another option, as Monks can get quite good. It would be nice to take Dorn, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't work with Keldorn...
I honestly can't say for certain what to do here. Since I haven't tested setups with game NPCs exhaustively, I can judge things mostly from a theoretical perspective. In that regard, I'd probably go with Rasaad. However, it is entirely possible to fill that slot with something else entirely, like another caster. Take Edwin, or even Aerie, for more spell power; you lose a lot of no-questions-asked damage until you get Sarevok, but may fare better in ToB. You could also take a thief along (I don't like thieves much in BG2), in which case Hexxat is a decent choice, or Jan for even more flexibility.
I'd be glad to get some input from people who've actually played with the NPCs a lot. I have tons of experience with min/max parties, but only with custom ones; it could be interesting to see how the NPCs fit into the established models.
Also, I have not gotten to play the new BG2 HoF mode yet (hopefully soon! when the grip of capitalism releases me at last...) and that may change things around quite considerably.
Jan is certainly a viable alternative to Imoen, his alignment is neutral though. I still prefer Imoen because she reaches capable spell casting earlier and gains mage HLAs quicker. Besides Jan cannot cast Horrid Wilting. Her thieving skills are sufficient imho.
I'm personally not a big fan of clerics in BGII, but maybe I just didn't use them to full effect. Maybe I should have relied on insect spells more to deal with casters but Jaheira was interrupted very frequently in difficult fights, even though I optimized her for ac.
If you do not mind using neutral characters Neera is a decent caster. Her con is a little low so she will end up with fairly low HP, but Wildmage is a good class.
[edit]
Thank you Tansheron for your detailed post! I usually build one mage to abuse Timestop->Improved Alcalary with Robes of Venca, which is the exception to that rule. Project image allows for that combination to go off multiple times.
As for NPCs: I think Korgan is pretty good as well, Dorn probably too (didn't play EE yet though). Aerie never received the love she deserved because without Robes of Venca she came off as rather medcore in my playthroughs.
There certainly is a window where playing with 4 characters is better, especially since the items in BGII are so ridiculously powerful. But in the end you probably want actions per round, so more characters will help a lot.
What about weapon selection? Would you try to skill Sarevok for TWF? Or just go with Ravager? What are your favorite main hand weapons? I personally think flail of ages, axe of unyielding and black razor (especially if modded to +5, the way it should have been:)) are among the best. Anything noteworthy that I missed?
About the powercurve: I personally made different experiences with a NPC party, but maybe I just played differently. I could successfully avoid the more difficult encounters until later in the game (mostly high level mages and Illithids)
Once modded weapons come into play, things change considerably of course
I've gone into this in more detail in another thread, but it essentially comes down to how you measure time in the game, or more precisely in the damage/time calculation. If you simply assume that no time passes during TS, wouldn't that make its DPT quotient infinite (assuming you see time as limit function approaching 0, it obviously can't be 0). Since obviously you are not dealing infinite damage, time has to pass - but in that case, what about everyone else? Why are they suddenly discounted? Yes they can't act - but if they could, had you not cast TS, wouldn't you agree that in the same time period they would be dealing damage? And that, consequently, the total damage output of the party would be higher?
As I said, I just don't understand the logic behind the argument, specifically why time seems to suddenly be measured so differently in the comparison.
About weapon damage: What strength do you take as reference point? Because the difference between 20 and 22 strength is only 2 damage. Also there is the deck of many things, tome of gainful exercise (BG1), machine of lum and test of wrath.
Last time I tested Blackrazor (talking unmodded here) it quickly got my strength to 25 with the added benefit of haste (I know it cancels improved haste but that's a bug), heal and the occasional level drain. Even though it wasn't with SCS, the sword was really huge in my playthrough. My pure kensai mauled the huge mob on the first level of watchers keep alone (21 strength from the getgo, no extra attacks offhand, didn't minmax as efficiently back then). I have no true powergaming experience with it though.
The axe's (of unyielding) HP aspect is nothing to sneeze at imho, until then there is frostreaver (but really not much else).
Club of detonation is an interesting choice. I never tested it but I think the random fireballs could get problematic if your party is clumped up. Besides, firedamage is the most commonly resisted.
About the power curve:
What you say is very much true. The bottom line is probably: If you manage your power curve a little, it is beneficial to go with fewer party memebers for many of the earlier quests to level up quicker.
I actually tried the item revisions mod. But it does assume vanilla balance so some items feel disappointing once you install SCS (because it's much harder to get there). Besides, overpowered items is part of the fun in BGII. Last time I played, I mostly just installed what SCS had adapted.
Lastly I have a bad habit if starting to install mods, I end up modding more then playing (Skyrim anyone?). So I simply decided I won't install anything that remotely messes with SCS balance (modding Blackrazor to +5 being the only exception). Next time I play it will be with fixpack (if needed), tweakpack, unfinished business (or successor), ascension, improved hell trials (hopefully!) and SCS.
That being said, you are 100% correct in that CF's value can fluctuate greatly depending on the STR values in question. Not only because your characters may have different stats, but also because CF actually is three separate items, two of which confer STR boosts of their own (gloves/belt). There are many cases in which it is actually better to leave CF split and use the component items instead of assembling the hammer - but that, again, depends on party setup and stat values.
I'd also like to briefly point out that many people believe CF is best used as an offhand weapon. While you can certainly do that (and find scenarios in which it's optimal), CF actually does deal quite good base damage on its own - and it can be combined with a +APR OH to even further benefit from the STR bonus. But again, and as always: YMMV with the individual setup. Blackrazor is absolutely a very good weapon. I used to use it before I modded weapons, as it's very conveniently a long sword and I want to use those anyway. It bridges the time until Angurvadal+5 nicely, but it's not better - of course, that is fairly late into ToB, and Blackrazor works very nicely until then to be sure.
The Axe I just cannot make friends with. The HP bonus seems so minor a bonus considering you have to spend 90% of the game with a bad proficiency because most of the other axes are so mediocre. Add to that the fact that the vorpal hit only really works against monsters you don't care about in the first place, and it's just not something I want to have anything to do with. Not because AotU+5 is bad per se, but just because you can't really fit it into your overall scheme well enough, and there's enough better alternatives. Enemy resistances are not actually a huge deal (though you're certainly right about it being the most common elemental resistance), but blowing up your own party can be. It's certainly not a weapon for the faint of heart, but it can be devastatingly effective. I like to go big on fire resistance on my party in general, and that helps a little - but it can absolutely backfire in bad spots and I would not recommend it for things like no-reload runs
@SpoCk0nd0pe IR is indeed not for everyone (aka not for "power-players") but every vanilla item deemed as overpowered is still incredibly powerful even after IR's "nerf", it's just not brokenly OP. Also note that while a few super-OP items got slightly nerfed, TONS of mediocre items are now good or very good, thus the average power lvl of items is actually slightly higher imo. Maybe you cannot create an unstoppable solo monster, but I think it makes easier to fully equip a 4-6 characters party with much more cool stuff.
The main advantage of Keldorn besides the 1.5 level dispel (the way I install SCS) is that his dispel and truesight are immediate actions.
@Demivrgvs Thanks for your understanding, though I'd still like to contribute more... Things did not go as planned
No argument there. It is just that with SCS, you are less likely to know what to expect. Depending what options you select among their healthy menu, you will see some encounters randomized and the spellbooks of even non-random fights shuffled between plays. You may not know whether you are going to see a fireball or a skull trap, a wilting or a powerword blind, etc.
You can prep for every contingency every fight (fire resistance, ring of fire resistance, potion of fire resistance, belt of inertia, protection from magic energy, stoneskin, spell immunity: abjuration, spell immunity: conjuring, etc.) but that can be very tedious compared to some builds that are more naturally robust but more limited.
I was just expressing that I find value in the extra hit points even for casters -- especially in a SCS run.
Dispel Magic and Remove magic work a little too reliably imho. The fights would be more interesting if it was just slightly harder (both ways).
That's not to say Haer'Dalis isn't a viable character.
As you say, in SCS you don't what to expect which makes Haer invaluable as a backup plan in wizard duels. I'd say the real downside is he requires much more micromanagement while Keldorn is just dispel derping away.
The extra spell levels of the bard are pretty important if you are comparing the bard to a multi-class, though. The effectiveness of dispel/remove magic in particular is pretty key.
Aerie and Jaheira actually start to shine later in the game because they either offer a wide variety of spells or a great combination of spell casting and fighting. Jaheira can be one of the best tanks with very few spells as long as they are not dispelled.
Minsc and Korgan both can make great use of their berserk skill other than that the fighting classes are somewhat interchangeable with Keldorn beeing the obvious exception because of his dispel, true sight and Carosymir. If you don't want Keldorn a Cavalier as the PC might be great because of the non dispellable fear protection which is a lot more useful in SCS.
Regarding general SCS strategies, it's absolutely true that it mixes things up a bit to keep you on your toes. However, despite its clever scripting the fights are in fact still very much predictable. You basically know what general thing will happen, and it's not that hard to prepare for it. And that doesn't mean counter-buffing to neutralize exactly every last thing that is thrown your way - you just need a general way to deal with things, and you worry about the details only in a select few cases. Most enemy types have a set way of approaching them that is actually far less complicated than people might think, once you figure it out. Example: to fight pretty much any dragon in SCS, I simply start the fight with a mage in melee, under SI:Ab and protection spells. I know there'll be a trigger with dispel coming, so I keep the team away until it hits. Then I pop a Breach for the dragon's defenses and go to town, tanking with the mage while the party proceeds to carve some dragon sashimi. Most enemy types are somewhat like that: you identify the key element that is the big issue, and deal with it; the rest you handle en route.
I am however very very VERY excited to see how things play out with the new HoF mode equivalent. You can afford to ignore minor mechanics in fights mostly because battles don't last long; even against bosses you regularly find yourself spending more rounds pre-buffing that actually fighting in the end. That should be very different with HoF-style HP levels. The longer fights last, the more time small things have to accumulate, and cause compounding problems - and the more relevant actual min/maxing becomes in the long run.
All in all I find that much more useful than the Cavalier abilities.